Ecc 9:5, "the dead know nothing"
Posted in the Jehovah's Witness Forum
#1 May 12, 2008
i am sick and tired of JW using this scripture to support there theory that there is no proof.
all the chapter is doing is describing the state of the dead, GOOD AND BAD, BEFORE the resurrection.
the WT bold face lied to you when they gave you that interpretation. they totally ignored the first 4 verses! here i'll show you why
Ecc 9:2 - "everything that conronts them is vanity, since the SAME fate comes to ALL, to the riteous and the wicked, TO THE GOOD AND THE EVIL, to the clean and the un-clean, to those who sacrifice and to those whop dont sacrifice. as are the good, so are the sinners; those who swear are like those who shun an oath."
verse 3 - "this is an evil in all that is under the sun, that the same fate comes to everyone...."
and of course in verse 5 it says "the dead know nothing".
now what dont you understand about that?
to say that 9:5 supports that there is no hell, stirs up some problems for JW.
all JW believe that the righteous go to the new kingdom, but according to there interpretation of this scripture that must not be true, because the dead know nothing!
it clearly says, "both good and evil"
so are you saying that nobody goes anywhere after death? not even the good to the new kingdom? how contradictive!
all this scripture is, is solomon describing the dead BEFORE the resurrection, GOOD AND BAD.
even people who believe in hell believe that the dead know nothing before the resurrection.
heck, even JW believe that the GOOD dont know anything before the resurrection.....because they are dead!
JW obviously just took the WT interpretation and ran with it without examination. you are all guilty of not paying attention and taking the word of man as the final word.
so every JW who uses this scripture to support there being no hell, i can assume they are athiest because they dont believe that people go to the new kingdom or hell. they believe that you will never see god or know him. and they believe this for the good and evil.
actually, any JW who use this scripture for that purpose just proves that they have no clue what they are talking about, and they probably dont know the difference between the WT and the bible.
lol, how silly you JW really are!
you might wanna read the chapter again because the WT bold faced lied to you!
#2 May 12, 2008
topsy and zooman, you can ask your questions here.
#3 May 12, 2008
Are you a Seventh Day Adventist, or a Pentecostal? I don't know too many other religions besides JW's and those I just listed that believe in "being asleep in death." Oh, and Bible Students, Christadelphians, etc. All other Christian religions seem to believe in an instant resurrection into heaven or hell.
- Wing Commander
#4 May 12, 2008
you are missing the point my friend!
the whole point is that JW use Ecc 9:5 as there reasoning why hell does not exsist!
if you used that logic to say hell doesnt exsist because the dead know nothing, then JW are left with a problem.
the scriptures clearly say that ALL PEOPLE, GOOD AND BAD, EVIL AND RIGHTEOUS, know absolutely nothing right?
so if you say that hell doesnt exsist because the dead know nothing, then you are also basically saying that hell dont exsist either.
to go even further then that you would also be saying that the good or righteous dont ever get to go to the new kingdom and the 144,000 dont go to heaven.
so why do JW point to Ecc 9:5 when they present there argument that hell doesnt exsist? in doing that, they are contradicting there own beliefs!!!
of course JW believe that the dead know nothing before the resurrecction and so do i. but that means good and bad!!!
that being said, any JW who teaches that Ecc 9:5 is biblical evidence that hell does not exsist are not only contradicting JW theology, they are also proving that they just havent read the bible and they are taking someones word for it.
i have heard many JW use this scriptures just for that purpose and i laugh everytime because they really just dont know fully what they are implying!
#5 May 12, 2008
lol, that is a very good question that i wonder the answer to myself.
i dont believe in any form of organized religeon. all denominations of christianity have there flaws and false teaching and interpretations.
the catholics pray to mary and the saints, the JW believe jesus is michael, the 7th day adventist believe that jesus is god and michael, etc, etc, etc.
none of that is what the bible teaches!!!
i would just say i am someone who is obssessed with the bible and finding the truth.
my religeon is jesus and the bible!!! i guess i dont have any room to be bias that way.
i am hear on this forum to defend the truth from the false doctrines of the JW.
#6 May 12, 2008
i do believe that the bible teaches that the dead really dont know anything or arent conscience until the resurrection though.
the scriptures support that.
but i also believe there is a hell to because the scriptures support that also.
but nobody goes to hell,heaven, or the new kingdon either until the resurrection
just my interpretation
“Love Them Anyway”
Since: Nov 07
#7 May 12, 2008
This would mean that people are not resurrected but reincarnated.
The Jews believed in the eternal nature of the spirit. Christians too. The resurrection takes place but that does not mean that those who have died know nothing in the spirit.
The Jews believed that the spirit returned to God;
Ecclesiastes 12:7 And the dust returns to the earth as it was, And the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Revelations gives us a clear view that godly martyres had died yet thier spirit's spoke;
Revelation 6:11 A long white robe was given to each of them. They were told that they should rest yet for a while, until their fellow servants and their brothers, who would also be killed even as they were, should complete their course.
The apostle saw the souls of the martyrs under the altar; at the foot of the altar in heaven, at the feet of Christ. Persecutors can only kill the body; after that there is no more they can do; the soul lives. God has provided a good place in the better world, for those who are faithful unto death. It is not their own death, but the sacrifice of Christ, that gives them entrance into heaven. They suffered for the word of God and were fully alive, aware in the spirit.
Paul's own words;2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Therefore, we are always confident and know that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord; for we walk by faith, not by sight. We are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.
Solomon was writing purely from the perspectice of a man from a PHYSICAL perspective.
He knew the spirit of man returned to God. The dead know nothing of the PHYSICAL anymore. That means they do not have physical bodies and know the goings on of the earth and the two worlds are separate right now.
The day will come when the two worlds will be combined, the physical and the spirit when New Jerusalem comes down.
#8 May 12, 2008
hhmmm, you could be right about this grace, i have to do more research though before i come to a final conclusion on wether spirits are conscience before resurrection.
my main thing was to just expose the JW theory that Ecc 9:5 somehow suggest that there is no hell.
nice post though.
“Love Them Anyway”
Since: Nov 07
#9 May 12, 2008
Job 32:8 But there is a SPIRIT in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding.
1 Corinthians 6:20 for you were bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and in your SPIRIT, which are God's.
Zechariah 12:1 An oracle. The word of Yahweh concerning Israel. Yahweh, who stretches out the heavens, and lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the SPIRIT of man within him ...
In 1906, at the General Hospital, at Haverhill, Massachusetts there was a scientific experiment conducted.
It was a project of Dr. Duncan McDougall and centered upon the questioN; Does man possess a soul that leaves the body at the moment of death?
McDougall reasoned that if a man does somehow survive death, then he must survive in some kind of physical form or substance. He further reasoned that if this soul-substance had any substantial properties then it must have weight. And if it did have weight then perhaps it could be detected. A combination bed scale was built to precision.
Next, McDougall secured the full co-operation of several terminally ill tuberculosis patients. When the time came that one of the patients was near the point of death, he was placed on a bed that had been turned into a gigantic scale.
McDougall later wrote a report of what happened: My first subject was a man dying of tuberculosis. It seemed best to me to select a patient dying with a disease that produces great exhaustion, the death occurring with little or no muscular movement, because in such a case the beam (scales)could be kept more perfectly at balance and any loss occurring could be kept more perfectly at balance and any loss occurring readily noted.
During all three hours and forty minutes, I kept the beam end slightly above balance near the upper limiting bar, in order to make the test more decisive if it should come. At the end of three hours and forty minutes he expired . AND SUDDENLY, AT THE EXACT MOMENT OF DEATH, THE BEAM END DROPPED WITH AN AUDIBLE STROKE, HITTING AGAINST THE LOWER LIMITING BAR, AND REMAINING THERE. THE LOSS WAS ASCERTAINED TO BE THREE-FOURTHS OF AN OUNCE."
To be sure that the mysterious, weight loss wasn't caused by perspiration evaporating and leaving the body, the rate of evaporation had already been calculated and found to be one-sixtieth of an ounce per minute, but the weight loss had occurred within a second or two therefore eliminating that as a cause of the weight loss.
“Love Them Anyway”
Since: Nov 07
#10 May 12, 2008
Another possibility that had to be taken into consideration was the weight of any air leaving the lungs at the moment of death. This too had been measured and factored into the experiment. It had been found that the lungs can hold about 300 cubic inches of air, which meant only one sixth of an ounce. Neither of these could account for the mysterious weight loss that had suddenly taken place!
McDougall set about conducting a second experiment exactly like the first one. The second patient lay on the bed for four hours and fifteen minutes before death occurred. But when the equipment registered that death had taken place, the beam on the scales DIDN'T move; no weight loss had occurred. Apparently the experiment had failed. For almost fifteen minutes the subject had no heartbeat, and to all indications life had ceased; only the facial muscles still twitched. And then suddenly the facial twitching stopped, and when it did at that precise moment the beam on the scale dropped with an audible sound!
The scale registered exactly one ounce of weight loss, it could not be accounted for in by any known cause.When McDougall later duplicated the same experiment using animals instead of human beings no weight loss occurred.
Dr. Albert Einstein later stated that, in his opinion, it was the most powerful evidence he'd ever encountered for proof that the human personality somehow survives death.
First Law of Thermodynamics
The first law of thermodynamics is often called the Law of Conservation of Energy. This law suggests that energy can be transferred from one system to another in many forms. Also, it can not be created or destroyed. Thus, the total amount of energy available in the Universe is constant. Einstein's famous equation (written below) describes the relationship between energy and matter:
E = mc2
In the equation above, energy (E) is equal to matter (m) times the square of a constant (c). Einstein suggested that energy and matter are interchangeable. His equation also suggests that the quantity of energy and matter in the Universe is fixed.
E is interchangable with m but can not be destroyed according to today's laws of physics. The human spirit is energy that can interchange with matter.
Science is the fingerprint of Intelligent design.
“Love Them Anyway”
Since: Nov 07
#11 May 12, 2008
That's right. If the soul/spirit of man does not live on at the moment of death, there is no need for heaven or hell.
God would merely reincarnate them back to the physical form on a physical earth if there is no spirit in man.
But the Bible and science proves differently. Blessings to you as you do your research.
#12 May 12, 2008
very nice and interesting story!!!
science is the fingerprint of intelligent design
i agree totally!!!
#13 May 12, 2008
does any JW want to defend the WT teaching that Ecc 9:5 supports there being no hell?
#14 May 12, 2008
Questions about Eccl. 9:5 for JW's:
Did you know that the Book of Ecclesiastes presents two contrasting viewpoints -- one that is strictly humanistic, and another one that is spiritual and God-honoring?
If, as many scholars believe, Ecclesiastes 9:1-10 reflects the strictly humanistic viewpoint, can you see how the statement in verse 5 reflects, not God's perspective, but rather fallen humanity's perspective?
If the phrase "know not anything" means the dead are unconscious in the grave, then doesn't the phrase 'nor have they any longer a reward" mean there will be no resurrection or rewards after this life -- even for JW's?
(If the JW's are consistent, this is what one must conclude.)
#15 May 12, 2008
yes i agree. it is the JW who have a bad interpretation of this scripture.
to say it supports there being no hell would be to also suggest there being no heaven or new jerusalem either if they used the same logic
#16 May 12, 2008
More on Eccl. 9:1-10.
Not only does the writer say in verse 5 that the dead know nothing, but he also adds that "they have NO MORE FOR EVER any share in all that is done under the sun" - verse 6.(Ask the JW if he believes that the dead are gone FOREVER. He will answer NO, because he believes in a future resurrection to this earth under the sun.)
Verse 2 expresses the thought that "one fate comes to all, to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil", an idea contradictory to all the rest of Scripture.(Ask the JW if he believes he will receive the same fate, whether he is righteous or wicked. His answer will again have to be NO.)
Such points and questions show that the statement in Eccl. 9:5 reflects not GOD'S prespective, but an EARTHLY, HUMAN perspective.
For EACH & EVERY verse that JW's think supports their teachings, there is a Biblically solid and sound counter-point. One who knows the real truth of Scripture will never fall for the counterfeit, pseudo-Christian false teachings of JW's or any other cultic group that comes along.
#17 May 12, 2008
EXACTLY! Very good. It's simply a matter of carrying their argument to the next question or aspect. It puts them in the dilemma of stopping short rather than thinking things through and looking at the context, or reading something into the text that simply is not there.
#18 May 12, 2008
nothing more true has been spoken......at least outside the bible, lol!
#19 May 12, 2008
the truth: Thanks! Yes, it's really true. JW's have their little 'proof-texts' they appeal to, often out of context. But again, every single one can be refuted with a solid sound Scriptural argument, and thereby avoid falling for the very sneaky tricks of false counterfeits like the WT.
Since: Aug 07
#20 May 12, 2008
The book of Ecclesiastes is rather sarcastic yes.
However the book refers to the dead being dead and knowing nothing is in complete harmony with the rest of the bible.(Ecc 5:9,10)
(Ezek. 18:4) The soul that is sinning it itself will die.
(Isa. 53:14) He poured out his soul to the very death. and heaps more.(Acts 3:23)
Adam was sentenced to death because of his willful sin.(Gen 3:17-19)
All descendants from Adam die (Rom 5:12,7,19)
What be the point of Christ's sacrifice if we don't die. It was to save us from death, from dying as we were created to live forever.(Heb 2:9) We behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by Gods undeserved kindness might taste death fro every man. also (Heb 9:27,28)
(1Tim 2:5,6) There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man Christ Jesus, who gave himself corresponding ransom for all. and (Matt20:28) also see (!Peter:18,19)
It was Satan that introduced sin and caused death.(Gen 3:4.5,14) At this the serpent said to the woman, You positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating form it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad.
Why would Rev say:(Rev 21:4) and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and DEATH SHALL BE NO MORE, neither shall their be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more, the first things are passed away.(ASV)
thats plain isnt' it.
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