Does John 5:18 mean Jesus broke the s...

Does John 5:18 mean Jesus broke the sabbath/made himself God's equal?

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“Prove all things 1 Th.5:21 ”

Since: May 10

North Merrick, Long Island, NY

#1 Feb 20, 2011
"What is the meaning of John 5:18?
John 5:18, RS:“This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God.”" - "Reasoning from the Scriptures," p. 214.

That is the theme of my assigned talk on our Ministry School Tuesday night. I would like input pro and con on whether the charge that Jesus broke the sabbath and made himself equal to God was a false charge or not.

Also, what does the context reveal concerning what Jesus did on the sabbath and also how God was Jesus' Father?

I will share with you what I found, but first I want responses so I don't prejudice responses in some way.
Bible laws not JW

Dundalk, MD

#2 Feb 20, 2011
nonsense of 21 century scribes and phariseeas
to them paganic mind they think they know more what Jesus tought and what and WHO JESUS IS

all reasonings,own specualtions,ow playing more smart from G-D is nonsense and blasphemies
close time of His return shows all of you
WHO YOU ARE ALL OF YOU TOGETHER WITH BABILON GREAT IMEPERIUM OF FALSE RELIGIONS WITHOUT EXCLUSSIONS OF JW
Rev 18
Rev 18;4-5
Mat 22;13
Mat 24;51
bunch of blind scintists and wolves in sheep clothes Mat 23;34

this is even shame to be in this sectarian empty discussions

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#3 Feb 20, 2011
John 5:18, "...making Himself equal with God."

"For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God," (John 5:18, NASB).

Of course Jesus did not sin and break the Sabbath.

The context of this verse is John chapter 5 where Jesus had healed a lame man on the Sabbath and told him to take up His pallet and walk. The Jews inquired about this man and why he was carrying the pallet. He said that Jesus healed him and told him to walk. It then says in John 5:16-18,

"And for this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17But He answered them,'My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working. 18For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

Yes, Jesus healed on the Sabbath. Obviously that was right for Him to do, but the Jews thought He was breaking the Sabbath. Therefore, when John says that Jesus was breaking the Sabbath he was clearly saying that Jesus was breaking the Jews erring conception of the Sabbath, not the real Sabbath. Then, in addition John says that Jesus was calling God His own father, making Himself equal to God. John is making two comments, 1 about the Jews erring claim and the other about Jesus claiming to be divine.

Let's analyze the issue some more:

If it was only the Jews who thought that Jesus was making Himself equal to God, then can you or someone else point out in the context of what Jesus said and did that would cause the Jews to think this? If you cannot find the place in scripture, then the only thing left to conclude is that the comment is John's and not that of the Jews.

But, you might ask where and what it was that Jesus said that meant He was claiming to be equal with God. The answer is simple: calling God His own Father is claiming to be equal to God as John the Apostle says. Nevertheless, let's look at the chapters prior to John 5:18 for any clues to Jesus' claims regarding His relationship to the Father.

John 2:16, "...stop making my Father's house a house of merchandise."
John 3:16, Jesus refers to Himself as the Son of God.
John 4:34, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to accomplish His work."

What can we conclude from this information? Quite simply, Jesus is the Son of God and and He calls God His own Father. So, the problem is in understanding what the phrase Son of God means. Apparently, in the biblical culture it means to be equal with God, as John the Apostle stated. But you might say that the term Son of God means that Jesus is not God. Okay, if that is so, then does the term Son of Man mean that Jesus is not a man? Of course not. If the term Son of Man means that Jesus is a man, then what does the term Son of God mean?
Why didn't John correct the error?

Also, if Jesus was not God, why didn't John the apostle clarify the situation? After all, it is a perfect opportunity to do so. Remember, John clarified other points. Here is an example:

"This saying therefore went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only,'If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?'(John 21:23, NASB).

"The Jews answered and said to Him,'Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon? 49Jesus answered,'I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me," (John 8:48-49).

John was definitely in the position to correct such a great error as Jesus being God in flesh, but He doesn't do it. This is not something you would let slide if you were writing a gospel about who Jesus really is.

Some info from:
http://carm.org/religious-movements/jehovahs-...
the questioner

Plymouth, UK

#4 Feb 20, 2011
hey 1975 went well!as did 1914,25,and 84, my word, so many end of worlds, so many quickly closed bank accounts and financial fraud lawsuits!
little lamb

Australia

#5 Feb 20, 2011
Actually Jesus is 'Lord of the Sabbath"

God has "set a day' in which he purposes to judge the earth in righteousness by a man , Christ Jesus."

So God has given all judging into the hands of his SON

John 3 [35] "The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hands."

Jesus has been given all authority, in heaven and on earth..

Great authority.

This AUTHORITY given to Jesus by the Father is 'god-like'

“Prove all things 1 Th.5:21 ”

Since: May 10

North Merrick, Long Island, NY

#6 Feb 20, 2011
Hi Hollie!- Long post! Thank you for posting Scriptures.

I will respond to just a few points first. We agree Jesus did not break the sabbath. Jesus did, however, break Jewish traditions but he did not break God's law.

However, you claim John did not clarify the deity of Christ.

John did clarify this - by recording Jesus own defense of his deity. In fact I hope to quote this defense in my talk - and John 10:36 is cited in my assigned source material. This was another occasion when the Jews made the same charge - here it is with context:

(John 10:29-38) 29 What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father. 30 I and the Father are one.” 31 Once more the Jews lifted up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them:“I displayed to YOU many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are YOU stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him:“We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them:“Is it not written in your Law,‘I said:“YOU are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world,‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me. 38 But if I am doing them, even though YOU do not believe me, believe the works, in order that YOU may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father.”

Notice which definition of deity Jesus used in his defense - theos in Greek and elohim in Hebrew from the sacred song or Psalm Jesus was quoting:

(Psalm 82:6)“I myself have said,‘YOU are gods, And all of YOU are sons of the Most High.

Notice Jesus only quoted the first part of this verse and then attested that he was the Son of God. Those Jews who remembered this verse of this sacred song, as well as those who looked up this verse, understood more completely why Jesus followed this quote with the statement that He is the Son of God. I.e. if these human judges were called gods by Jehovah, how much more should the Son of God appropriately be called god (as in John 1:1 where Jesus as the Word/logos is referred to as theos without the definite article {see Strong's 2316 theos definition w/o 3588 [the Greek definite article], namely: a deity [in contrast with the supremem Divinity as definition of theos with 3588]}, hence Jesus is a deity not the supreme Divinity.

Further John clarifies this by recording Jesus' prayer to Jehovah in John 17 where he shows that his followers would be one with him just as Jesus is one with the Father.

And when Jesus said these things, does John clarify whether Jesus was equal with God or whether the Father was greater than Him?

Indeed John does so clarify:

(John 14:28) YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.

Thank you for asking whether John clarified the issue of the deity of Christ - I think I will use some of your response in my talk.

I agree with you this does involve how Jehovah was Jesus' Father and how Jesus was thus the Son of God - and needless to say I (and you) could post much more on this.

I will, however, wait for more responses or until tomorrow.

“Prove all things 1 Th.5:21 ”

Since: May 10

North Merrick, Long Island, NY

#7 Feb 20, 2011
questioner - I have a question. Can you post on thread theme?
the questioner

Plymouth, UK

#8 Feb 20, 2011
clearly yes!
i work in mysterious ways
the questioner

Plymouth, UK

#9 Feb 20, 2011
Newtonian. Why a question, not an answer

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#10 Feb 20, 2011
Hi Newt,

Hope you are well.(You do know I am Nanalulu from bnet, right?) ;)

Thank you for your kind post, and I know you say you "agree" with me, but my post in defense of Jesus proving He is God.

To me, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God.
the questioner

Plymouth, UK

#11 Feb 20, 2011
so am i my dad?, hollieberry?
the questioner

Plymouth, UK

#12 Feb 20, 2011
i am here to ask and get answers not provoke!

Since: Jul 10

United States

#13 Feb 20, 2011
hollieberry wrote:
Hi Newt,
Hope you are well.(You do know I am Nanalulu from bnet, right?) ;)
Thank you for your kind post, and I know you say you "agree" with me, but my post in defense of Jesus proving He is God.
To me, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God.
Did Jesus break the Sabbath?

Since: Jul 10

United States

#14 Feb 20, 2011
I should clarify,

Did Jesus break the Sabbath by healing the man?-Verses 5-17.

“Prove all things 1 Th.5:21 ”

Since: May 10

North Merrick, Long Island, NY

#15 Feb 20, 2011
little lamb wrote:
Actually Jesus is 'Lord of the Sabbath"
God has "set a day' in which he purposes to judge the earth in righteousness by a man , Christ Jesus."
So God has given all judging into the hands of his SON
John 3 [35] "The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hands."
Jesus has been given all authority, in heaven and on earth..
Great authority.
This AUTHORITY given to Jesus by the Father is 'god-like'
Yes, little lamb - that is correct. However, we should remember this authority was given to Jesus by Jehovah - compare the word given (e.g. Greek edoken) in Jesus prayer to Jehovah.

The point about Jesus being given the authority to judge is also in the immediate context of the verse in question (OP - and my talk theme):

(John 5:18-23). . .On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God. 19 Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them:“Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, in order that YOU may marvel. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to. 22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.. . .

Note also that Jesus does nothing of his own initiative (cp. originality). Jesus explains this in many verses, e.g. John 14:6 - Jesus is the Way (& the truth & the life).

One way has to do with how Jesus pleads for us as our High Priest - cp. Hebrews 7:25.

(Hebrews 7:25) Consequently he is able also to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them.

But how, exactly, is Jesus the Son of God - see, for example, Colossians 1:13.

“Prove all things 1 Th.5:21 ”

Since: May 10

North Merrick, Long Island, NY

#16 Feb 20, 2011
Oops - I forgot to reference the prayer where Jesus states a number of the things Jehovah gave him - John 17!

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#17 Feb 20, 2011
Newt already clarified that he does not believe that Jesus broke the Sabbath, so why are you asking me this? Do you not agree with him?

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#18 Feb 20, 2011
Post #17 is to standfirm...sorry.

“Prove all things 1 Th.5:21 ”

Since: May 10

North Merrick, Long Island, NY

#19 Feb 20, 2011
StandFirm wrote:
I should clarify,
Did Jesus break the Sabbath by healing the man?-Verses 5-17.
Hi Stand firm! Now that clarified question I may well ask in my talk.

Of course, Jesus did not go along with Jewish traditions that were added to Biblcal laws. Note this from our Bible dictionary:

"Rabbinic Sabbath Restrictions. The Sabbath was originally intended to be a joyous, spiritually upbuilding time. But in their zeal to distinguish themselves from the Gentiles as much as possible, the Jewish religious leaders, especially after the return from Babylonian exile, gradually made it a burdensome thing by greatly increasing the Sabbath restrictions to 39, with innumerable lesser restrictions. These, when compiled, filled two large volumes. For example, catching a flea was forbidden as hunting. A sufferer could not be given relief unless death threatened. A bone could not be set, nor a sprain bandaged. The true purpose of the Sabbath was made void by these Jewish religious leaders, for they made the people slaves to tradition, instead of having the Sabbath serve men to the honor of God.(Mt 15:3, 6; 23:2-4; Mr 2:27) When Jesus' disciples picked grain and rubbed it in their hands to eat, they evidently were accused on two counts, namely, harvesting and threshing on the Sabbath.(Lu 6:1, 2) The rabbis had a saying: "The sins of everyone who strictly observes every law of the Sabbath, though he be an idol worshiper, are forgiven."" - "Insight on the Scriptures," Vol. 2, p. 832

If I have time, I would like to know more about those pharisaical requirements! Clearly the Jews thought that Jesus' healing on the sabbath was breaking the sabbath - but clearly it was not against God's law.

“Prove all things 1 Th.5:21 ”

Since: May 10

North Merrick, Long Island, NY

#20 Feb 20, 2011
hollieberry wrote:
Newt already clarified that he does not believe that Jesus broke the Sabbath, so why are you asking me this? Do you not agree with him?
Hollie - It is a good question - I doubt stand firm thinks I do not understand this - but rather that it is a good question for my talk - remember I am preparing a talk!

Anyway, I love Bible questions - of course, I love Biblical answers even more!

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