What is the trinity?

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#10419 Jan 12, 2014
Matt13weedhacker wrote:
<quoted text>
He would have prayed to his mediator, sorry, "Medatrix", between God and man, Mary and her Idol.
Does he still attend Mass though?
I don't know.

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#10420 Jan 12, 2014
dandate2 wrote:
<quoted text>
What are you talking about? You can't find a single action by the RCC that didn't come from the bible, even the Inquisition is a commandment from God.
Oh, with its attendant tortures? Was that a commandment from God, too?

Since: Sep 12

Philippines

#10421 Jan 12, 2014
Schleptik wrote:
<quoted text>Oh, with its attendant tortures? Was that a commandment from God, too?
Do you think King David or Moses would have had it any other way?

Infact, the Catholic Church was truly an upgrade; you were allowed to repent.

Under Moses, you just got immediately killed without trial.

“the Lion of Judah”

Since: Jul 08

US Bible Belt

#10422 Jan 12, 2014
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text> Do you ever get tired of lying? No one is in hell now as judgement hasn't happened yet.You know that but enjoy trying to fool people with your lies about others.
.
Whatever errors others make does not lessen the errors of the WTS.Other's errors do not cancel out the errors of the WTS. You do not want to accept that you are being taught errors for you want to believe men over scriptures.
Earth has become hell and I want to transform it into heaven. Judgement Day and I make that transition possible. Do not listen to anyone other than a proven as factual and witnessed super star, miracle worker and wonderful counselor. Listen to me I teach new things that have been hidden from your minds.

Since: Sep 12

Philippines

#10423 Jan 12, 2014
Schleptik wrote:
<quoted text>Oh, with its attendant tortures? Was that a commandment from God, too?
I got a better answer for you.

Do you think Moses was a proponent of "Religious Liberty" or "Freedom of Religion"?

Why would you expect the Catholic Church, the fulfillment of of the Covenant, to hold your satanic liberal views?

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#10424 Jan 12, 2014
dandate2 wrote:
<quoted text>
I got a better answer for you.
Do you think Moses was a proponent of "Religious Liberty" or "Freedom of Religion"?
Why would you expect the Catholic Church, the fulfillment of of the Covenant, to hold your satanic liberal views?
I was just wondering whether you felt that the Catholic Inquisition and its accompanying tortures inflicted on others was also from God, since you feel the Inquisition is justified in scripture.

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#10425 Jan 12, 2014
dandate2 wrote:
<quoted text>
I got a better answer for you.
Do you think Moses was a proponent of "Religious Liberty" or "Freedom of Religion"?
Why would you expect the Catholic Church, the fulfillment of of the Covenant, to hold your satanic liberal views?
Does the Catholic church believe that people are in hell now, or that the judgment is yet to come as far as sending people to hell and having them tortured there?

Since: Sep 12

Philippines

#10426 Jan 13, 2014
Schleptik wrote:
<quoted text>
I was just wondering whether you felt that the Catholic Inquisition and its accompanying tortures inflicted on others was also from God, since you feel the Inquisition is justified in scripture.
Fact is, you can't reject the Inquisition without rejecting Elijah who slaughtered the heretics on Mt. Carmel.

The entire Old Testament was an Inquisition, and it continued to the New Testament as seen in Acts 5.

Since: Sep 12

Philippines

#10427 Jan 13, 2014
Schleptik wrote:
<quoted text>
Does the Catholic church believe that people are in hell now, or that the judgment is yet to come as far as sending people to hell and having them tortured there?
Judgement occurred in 70AD at the sack of Jerusalem.

Luke 21:20
"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.
Luke 21:22
For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

The "Resurrection" into heaven or hell is immediate upon death.

Since: Sep 12

Philippines

#10428 Jan 13, 2014
Notice 70AD is the "Fulfillment of all that has been written".

Reading the bible in context makes this more abundantly clear. Jesus says the Apostles will see it in their lifetimes, that Caiaphas will see it in his lifetime, everyone keeps saying it is "Near", the "Hour is at hand".

If you look at Daniel, he is told the prophesy is "Not Near", that was 500BC. In 60AD John is told "It is Near".

2014AD is "Not Near" to 60AD by demonstrable biblical standards, and it is because you guys are misled into waiting for something that already happened.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#10429 Jan 13, 2014
little angel wrote:
<quoted text>
Would you please list the reference for this and the version? Thx.
Go do your home work, and see if the following is incorrect?

Gk.,( PASES )= "...( OF ) ALL..." = adjective, singular, feminine, GENITIVE CASE

Gk.,( KTISEOS )= "...( OF ) CREATION..." = noun, singular, feminine, GENITIVE CASE

The feminine gender has it's grammatical antecedent back in Gk.,( IKON ) "...IMAGE...", which shows that: "...( OF ) ALL ( OF ) CREATION..." applies directly to Christ, agreeing in gender, i.e. feminine, and number, i.e. singular, in accordance with the rule of concord, or grammatical agreement, in Greek.

"...( OF ) ALL ( OF ) CREATION..."

I.e. ye old double: "...( OF )...( OF )..."

Compare:

Proverbs 8:22(A) LXX Gk.,( EKITSEN ME )“...He created me...”
Proverbs 8:23(B) LXX Gk.,( ETHEMELIOSEN ME )“...He established [or “founded”] me...”
Proverbs 8:25(C) LXX Gk.,( GEENA ME )“...He causes me to be born [or “begets me”]...”

Note the three times repeated grammatical first person singular personal pronoun Gk.,( ME ) literally in English, surprise, surprise:“...ME...”

Also note in conjunction and contrasted with the first person: "...ME..." in all three cases, the three times repeated third person singular personal pronoun:“...HE...”.

Proverbs 8:25(C) LXX Gk.,( GEENA ) is a form of Gk.,( GEENAO )“...to cause to be born...” or “...begett...”

[1.] "...CREATED ME..."
[2.] "...ESTABLISHED ME..." or "...FOUNDED ME..."
[3.] "...BEGETS ME..."
[4.] "...FIRST ONE TO HAVE BEEN BORN..."
[5.] "...( OF ) ALL ( OF ) CREATION..."

A message for Tri{3}nitarians from the same writer of Colossians:

1st Corinthians 1:24

King James Bible

"...But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks,[[[ READERS OF THE LXX SEPTUAGINT ]]]( Christ ) the Power of God, and ( the Wisdom of God )..."

“EXPOSING CHURCHianity!”

Since: Oct 07

Seattle, WA

#10430 Jan 13, 2014
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text> Of course Eve died, no one denies that. You saying others say she didn't die is just more of your lies, miseracord.
I.m afraid what you reject is the scriptures as written in context.
DEEmented- you saying Eve DIDN'T have an 'immortal soul' that floated off somewhere, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Since: May 09

Chicago, IL

#10431 Jan 13, 2014
Hello Schleptik,
Schleptik wrote:
<quoted text>
Any mistake that JW's have made is nothing in comparison to the false religion and teachings of those who proclaim themselves to be "Christian" but have not the vaguest idea what that involves. You can bring up 1975, miracle wheat, anything at all -- what you have represented of your religious beliefs makes no sense to me. Call me stupid, initiated, whatever ... Have a nice day too. That is why at the "end," it will all come out and be resolved finally in the eyes of all those involved, I believe. If I'm wrong, well, Bob, I'm wrong.
If you are wrong, is it OK for my heart to be saddened and broken for you? Anyone that denies Christ can be their personal Mediator because a group of men say that person is not worthy because the 144,000 are already filled up - really saddens me.

Now to cover your individual points:
1) I lived through the 1975 fiasco... Therefore my perspective is from personal experience and not what is only written in the WTBTS magazines;
2) I did not even bring up miracle wheat;
3) 1914 - You still cling to your beliefs even though they were initially defined through what some deem satanism - Pyramidology, yet you still believe them with their white washed 607BC story to cover up the mess that initially brought about 1914 date. And the Jehovah's Witnesses dare condemn Christendom for celebrating Christmas on a date that is know to be off? Doesn't that just smack of hypocrisy to you?
4) I just touched on a couple of the 100s upon 100s of doctrinal changes and misteps taught throughout the years. You keep harping on Christendom for inconsistency of beliefs, but then again if we could pull people from each decade from the origin of the Jehovah's Witness / Bible Students thru today, none of the 15 decade representatives of each decade would be singing the same tune. In fact I believe that if you just span any 20 year period you would find doctrines that were once DFable offenses now taught as truth and vise versa. That means the doctrinal changes ARE DRAMATIC CHANGES in fundamentals that have happened over the years.
5) Does ever changing doctrines over the years that all the laity are programmed to chant in unison really mean that there is no division within the teachings? Or does that mean the laity has been programmed to ignore Acts 17:11 for fear of being ostracized from the group if they question ANY of the 100s upon 100s of doctrinal changes over the years? Absolute unity DESPITE the all the changes tells me more about the absolute control the GB has rather that the character of the body of Jehovah's Witnesses.

<CONTINUED>

Since: May 09

Chicago, IL

#10432 Jan 13, 2014
<CONTINUED>
Schleptik wrote:
Do you believe your mother is burning in hell now, Bob, being tortured maybe a little like undee believes, or maybe forever, as so many of your fellow believers hold to?
Name calling of Dee? You really are better than that from what I know of you.

But as for my JW mother that is still living in this age - I do believe she is saved because of the one moment she had when she was a young teen. She did have that moment, that asking of Christ to come into her heart. I still recall her telling me her story. How do I know she is saved? I showed her from the WTBTS literature how Christ is not her personal mediator. She screamed at me that I was a liar and twisted the good things about the Jehovah's Witnesses and we pretty much did not talk for a whole year after that.

That tells me of the sincerity of her saving moment as a teenager because she clings to Christ as her personal mediator. I believe her reward will be small in heaven, because her works will be judged, and her works did not produce much fruit, but I do believe she is saved.

I feel sorry for those in the WTBTS leadership that taught her to stray from Christ and basically make her work useless, for they will be judge more harshly than the laity.

Regarding Dee's discussion...
You know it is funny that Christ only mentioned paradise once and he mentioned a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth 7 times.
Please make sure you fully comprehend what Christ yaught 7 more times that paradise was mentioned. What is this place that Christ talks about 7 times? A simple little dirt nap doesn't appear to cover Christ description that he stated 7 more times that he talked about paradise.
Schleptik wrote:
Now if you're happy with your form of religion, I want you to be. I want you to be very happy with whatever religion you profess to adhere to or not adhere to, no matter how many varied and inconsistent teachings there are among the various sects, divisions and folds of the churches. Go for it.
What you fail to understand is that the Jehovah's Witness ALSO have a few sects over their short limited history.

1) Bible Students;
- http://www.biblestudents.com/index.html
2) Dawn Bible Students;
- http://www.dawnbible.com/
3) Christian Millennial Fellowship
- http://www.christiandmi.org/
4) Lord's Witnesses
- http://www.truebiblecode.com/index.html
5) Jehovah's Witnesses.

Why do you belong to a religion that has so many sects in their short history? Or did you not know this "fact" about your own religion?

Be careful when throwing stones at others from your own glass house.

Peace my friend,
Bob

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#10433 Jan 13, 2014
dandate2 wrote:
<quoted text>
What are you talking about? You can't find a single action by the RCC that didn't come from the bible, even the Inquisition is a commandment from God.
Hi Dandate2

So I take it from your post, you believe, it was a mistake when Pope John Paul 2nd gave a qualified apology for the Inqusition? See this comment at the "Catholic Resource Center:" http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/his...

"According to Pope John Paul II,“The Inquisition belongs to a tormented phase in the history of the Church, which ... Christians [should] examine in a spirit of sincerity and open-mindedness.”1 To assess the Inquisition properly, we must distinguish between the principle which undergirded it, and the actions of those responsible for implementing the principle. The principle — that the Church must guard the faith against deviations — is an obligation of divine law (cf. Mt. 18:18; 2 Tim. 1:14). The actions taken to implement the process sometimes were questionable and even deplorable. Yet, because of centuries of misinformation, we must take care to distinguish fact from fiction."

I would like your comments on these verses.

Matthew 26:51-54 "And behold, one of those who were with Jesus [m]reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and [n]cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus *said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve [o]legions of angels? 54 How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?” Footnote: legion is 6000 soldiers."

Some questions that, I believe, arise from those verses are:

(1) How does one reconsile Matthew 26:52 who rebuked Peter for resorting to violence by saying "...Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword."? with the Inquisition?

(2) Why would Jesus need to appeal(pray, ask, call in other Bibles) to the Father if Jesus had God Almighty the Son dwelling within him? Does that not suggest inferiority of the Son to the Father?

(3) Was not Jesus making the argument that he was not here to set up a Government on Earth in combination with a Secular authority, but that his Kingdom was in Heaven or are you arguing that the Catholic Church is acting on behalf of Jesus on Earth and had authority to execute judgment against heretics?

All the Best

Dave


Since: May 09

Chicago, IL

#10434 Jan 13, 2014
Hello Schleptik,
Schleptik wrote:
Bob, sometimes it's tit for tat. When undee stops calling me miseracord I'll stop calling her undee or undeelightful or whatever she wants, Bob. It's up to her. You are revealing your hatred more and more, Bob. You have not opened the door for anybody, bob, except people of your ilk perhaps to join you in the mass confusion. I stayed away from people like you, bob, and will continue to do so religiously. Jesus had names for people like you, bob. I'll let him make the decision. Now you have a nice day bob, and guess you're now no longer "Peace, Bob"?
I went back about 8-9 pages and could not find you being called miseracord (who is another poster on these boards) in this thread and missed it or it was in another thread that I am not following, otherwise I would have said something the other way and not said anything to you.

If it is tit for tat in your book, why do you question me calling another person out for name calling (Matt) and ask for an apology - which is trying to even stay above the tit for tat? I hope you noticed, I am not calling Matt names for "tat" - to use your phrase.

What do you mean open the door for anybody. This is a thread about defending the Trinity, which I am on the receiving end of, in which attackers of the doctrine need to have the open mind in order to understand the doctrine be discussed. We are not asking about a WTBTS doctrine, in which an open mind would be required to understand if I am on the giving end. If you want to try and discuss a WTBTS doctrine and see how open-minded I am about trying to understand your explanations, I certainly am willing to listen to your explanations and see if they stack up biblically. If your dialog can present a scriptural base for your belief, then I certainly have to consider it.

If this Trinity subject bothers you so badly - "a doctrine of mass confusion", and you stay away from people that support such a doctrine "religously", then why are you posting on this particular thread, knowing you will be forced to converse with people like me? This makes absolutely no sense, uless this is just a feeble excuse to try to stop conversing with me, yet continue to talking about doctrines of mass confusion. You cannot have it both ways.

Anyway,

It is still peace to you my friend,
Bob

Since: May 09

Chicago, IL

#10435 Jan 13, 2014
Hello Schleptik,
Schleptik wrote:
So are you a Catholic now, Bob? No Catholic bashing like you engage in towards the Witnesses, Bob. Just wondering. The Catholics have many, many people in that religion, wouldn't you say?
No, I am not Catholic. I merely stated a fact that I was forced to go to a Catholic school in my young by my Father who was very against my Jehovah Witness mother. The Mad JW thought that I should have went into a complete rant over the RCC beliefs because I merely mentioned this fact relating how I gained my knowledge about the Jehovah's Witnesses to a snarking response of Matt's.

RCC beliefs were not part of the context in my mentioning of the school I went to. I just pointed out the fact that I was going to an RCC school during the times when the 1975 "END OF THE WORLD" teachings were florishing within the Kingdom Halls. One of the main teachings was that the RCC would be one of the first targets in the Great Tribulation. I still remember my mother crying each day my dad drove us to school in September of 1975. She literally thought that was the last time she was going to see her children each time we drove off. Man - talk about a psych job all thanks to the teachings of the WTBTS.

So do you think I need to include RCC bashing with that story? Context is key my friend.

Peace,
Bob

Since: May 09

Chicago, IL

#10436 Jan 13, 2014
Hello Matt,
Matt13weedhacker wrote:
"...first one to have been BORN ( OF ) all ( OF ) creation..."
Did creation GIVE BIRTH to Jesus?
YES!!!!!!!

Luke 1:31 NASB
31 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.

Galatians 4:4 NASB
4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

Unless you believe that Mary is not part of Creation....

Peace,
Bob
little angel

Pittsburgh, PA

#10437 Jan 13, 2014
Matt13weedhacker wrote:
<quoted text>
Go do your home work, and see if the following is incorrect?
Gk.,( PASES )= "...( OF ) ALL..." = adjective, singular, feminine, GENITIVE CASE
Gk.,( KTISEOS )= "...( OF ) CREATION..." = noun, singular, feminine, GENITIVE CASE
The feminine gender has it's grammatical antecedent back in Gk.,( IKON ) "...IMAGE...", which shows that: "...( OF ) ALL ( OF ) CREATION..." applies directly to Christ, agreeing in gender, i.e. feminine, and number, i.e. singular, in accordance with the rule of concord, or grammatical agreement, in Greek.
"...( OF ) ALL ( OF ) CREATION..."
I.e. ye old double: "...( OF )...( OF )..."
Compare:
Proverbs 8:22(A) LXX Gk.,( EKITSEN ME )“...He created me...”
Proverbs 8:23(B) LXX Gk.,( ETHEMELIOSEN ME )“...He established [or “founded”] me...”
Proverbs 8:25(C) LXX Gk.,( GEENA ME )“...He causes me to be born [or “begets me”]...”
Note the three times repeated grammatical first person singular personal pronoun Gk.,( ME ) literally in English, surprise, surprise:“...ME...”
Also note in conjunction and contrasted with the first person: "...ME..." in all three cases, the three times repeated third person singular personal pronoun:“...HE...”.
Proverbs 8:25(C) LXX Gk.,( GEENA ) is a form of Gk.,( GEENAO )“...to cause to be born...” or “...begett...”
[1.] "...CREATED ME..."
[2.] "...ESTABLISHED ME..." or "...FOUNDED ME..."
[3.] "...BEGETS ME..."
[4.] "...FIRST ONE TO HAVE BEEN BORN..."
[5.] "...( OF ) ALL ( OF ) CREATION..."
A message for Tri{3}nitarians from the same writer of Colossians:
1st Corinthians 1:24
King James Bible
"...But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks,[[[ READERS OF THE LXX SEPTUAGINT ]]]( Christ ) the Power of God, and ( the Wisdom of God )..."
This shows a mishmosh of WT beliefs that contradict one another. Jesus is feminine? No, wisdom is feminine. If we follow the WT reasoning with this, it can't indicate Jesus, because wisdom and power are not persons (as in the Holy Spirit?). But, since the Bible calls Jesus the wisdom and power of God, then the Holy Spirit can also be a person. Why allow one and not the other?

The early Christians understood the equality of the Father and the Son: And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousands, and thousands of thousands;

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing.

And EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS IN HEAVEN, AND ON THE EARTH, AND UNDER THE EARTH, AND SUCH AS ARE IN THE SEA, AND ALL THAT ARE IN THEM, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.- Revelation 5:11-13

Since: Dec 13

Brisbane, Australia

#10438 Jan 13, 2014
Schleptik wrote:
<quoted text>
Pardon me if I'm wrong, mate, but you come across as someone who believes he is rarely wrong, and I notice you readily put down and squash others who disagree with your viewpoint, matey.
Its called debating or arguing the scriptures.
Prove me wrong Schleptik and I will admit to being wrong.

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