Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#7760 Oct 26, 2013
beckyss wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Dave, You are one person on this forum who does hold opposite beliefs about God the Father, God the Son, and God the HS than me and whom I hold more respect for you than any other person who holds opposite beliefs. I am writing this in response to an honest answer I am seeking,(actually any answer). For you see, I have asked many, many, many people of opposing beliefs on here why they believe that in Isaiah 9:6 that Jesus, the foretold child to be born is called "Everlasting Father"and "Wonderful counselor" Every person I have asked,(which has been many) has been more than willing to address the titles of "mighty God' and 'Prince of Peace', But NOT ONE has answered to why Christ is called Everlasing Father and Wonderful Counselor (as the HS) is referred to in the NT by Jesus himself)..
Can and will you give me your understanding/explanation of this please?
PS. I am rather disappointed that you did not respond to my post (which was in response to yours) about 'of all' and 'over all' in Col 1: 15 and 16 (unless I missed it along the way because I've been off for a few day...)
Thanks,
Becky
Now think about this, don't just dismiss it as JW propoganda, because this makes complete sense from a rational perspective regardless of what belief you or I hold.

The Jews who were sent from,(circa Jerusalem 300 years before Christ), who translated the Hebrew OT into Greek, gave a their Orthodox Jewish explanation as:

"...Father of the age that is about to come..."

These were descriptive names that the Messiah would be called in the future.

I.e: "...he ( shall or will be ) called..."

And he did bring: "...wonderful counsel..." from the Father.

When he came to the earth from heaven, by his own admission, and his own unambiguous explanation, he said that he did not speak anything at all, that originated from him-self.

All counsel, no matter how wonderful, came from the Father.

Only what the Father taught him to say, commanded him to say, and what he heard from Him,(the Father), was what Jesus related to us.

He was the Father's messenger, and official emissary,(i.e. Apostle), sent on a mission from heaven to mankind.

Thus the LXX, Septuagint also calls him:

"...an Angel of great counsel..."

So the interpretive translation, and meaning of the Hebrew was brought over into the Greek as both:

"...Father of the age that is to come..."

"...an Angel of great counsel..."

As an explanation of: "...Wonderful Counselor ... everlasting Father...".

Adam our earthly forefather, did not last, but the second Adam will be an "...everlasting Father...".

That's how I see it anyway. You don't have to accept that, but I believe that is a very good and reasonable explanation of those titles that the messiah was to be given in the future.

PS. "...Counselor..." in the LXX is different Greek to the helper,(HS), in the NT.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#7761 Oct 26, 2013
beckyss wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Schleptik. I know you believe Christ is a "mighty God. You are missing my point.
Why is the foretold Christ Child called Everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6 and why is He also called 'the wonderful counselor'..
Found in JOhn 15 and 16... Read it.
This scripture clearly shows how Christ is literally referenced as the Everlasting Father (God) and the wonderful Counselor (the HS of God)
Blessings to you!
Becky.
Actually the LXX is Gk.,( BOULES ) which can be: "...counsel..." or "...purpose..."

"...an Angel of great purpose..." or "...an Angel of [the] great purpose...".

So if this text is about the (HS), then it leaves itself open to the idea that the (HS) is an angel, which I doubt you or any Tri{3}nitarian would accept.

Since: Nov 11

Saint Peters, MO

#7762 Oct 26, 2013
Schleptik wrote:
<quoted text>
There are many ways of explaining the trinity. They all claim to be true explanations without wavering. That does not prove them true. I don't see the trinity as the truth about God from the Scriptures. There is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. Yes - the word god can be used to refer to others besides the only 'true' God, but this does not mean that because Jesus is the truth, the way, and the life that he is the only 'true' God, an special appellation given by holy spirit (inspiration) to designate the one true God, the God and Father of Jesus Christ, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob -- Jehovah.
New International Version, John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
New Living Translation, Matthew 6:9
Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy.
King James Bible, Psalm 83:18
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.
There is only ONE GOD and His name is YHWH, Not Jehovah.. this is a man made name.... Jesus who is God in the flesh (John 1:1-16),(the word was (NOT [a])God and the word became flesh). Lord over all the earth as scripture states. And God sent His Holy spirit out as our spiritual Counselor as John 15 and 16 states...
HOw can one keep YHWH's name Holy if you use it every other word in your vocabulary.. Something Holy is to be kept out of public.. IT is cherished and hidden so that it may not be ruined. we are to use it in our innermost private prayers as Mt 6, the tells us.
Blessings!
Becky

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#7763 Oct 26, 2013
HopeReigns wrote:
<quoted text>
Unlike you miser...I don't twist scriptures or posters words. You see I understand WHAT Jesus was saying, WHEN he said it and WHERE he said it.
I've read the trinitarians' answers to this question. And it makes no sense, it just goes deeper into the mystery without making sense. You can say what you want about anything, especially religion but your prayers and your experiences do not make your allegations or assertions true. Only God makes what HE WANTS true. The trinity is not true; it's false. You can believe it, but there is nothing in the Bible that shows that Jesus is part of a unity called God composed of three persons, manifestations, or whatever else you want to make it.
HopeReigns wrote:
One piece of advise, do some heavy praying before reading the scriptures; ask that your eyes are opened so as to recognize the Holy Spirit is your teacher and not 8 men in NY who don't care about you or your salvation.
Now have you figured out who is the first paraclete?
God cares about my salvation, of that I am assured. I also know that He cares about ME. And that He is not a trinity. I personally don't examine such questions as "who is the first paraclete." Maybe somebody else will engage in that with you. I know God, and He knows me. He also knows you. He is not a trinity. No matter how you want to twist the word echad, or elohim, it does not equate to -- trinity.

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#7764 Oct 26, 2013
beckyss wrote:
<quoted text>
There is only ONE GOD and His name is YHWH, Not Jehovah.. this is a man made name.... Jesus who is God in the flesh (John 1:1-16),(the word was (NOT [a])God and the word became flesh). Lord over all the earth as scripture states. And God sent His Holy spirit out as our spiritual Counselor as John 15 and 16 states...
HOw can one keep YHWH's name Holy if you use it every other word in your vocabulary.. Something Holy is to be kept out of public.. IT is cherished and hidden so that it may not be ruined. we are to use it in our innermost private prayers as Mt 6, the tells us.
Blessings!
Becky
Just go tell that to the translators of the King James and other Bibles who say that God's name IS JEHOVAH. False teachers say God's name is too holy to be used. It is not to be used in VAIN. It is false teaching to say that it is too holy to be spoken aloud or in conversation. Furthermore, Jesus spoke in public, and was killed in public. Many of the apostles and disciples were killed for publishing the good news about God, and that includes exposing the scriptures about Jehovah and Jesus. God's name, JEHOVAH, was intertwined with Jesus' name. Your argument makes no sense, by saying you can say Jesus but not Jehovah. No sense at all. Yes -- God wants His name known, just as He wants His Son's name known now.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#7765 Oct 26, 2013
beckyss wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Dave, You are one person on this forum who does hold opposite beliefs about God the Father, God the Son, and God the HS than me and whom I hold more respect for you than any other person who holds opposite beliefs. I am writing this in response to an honest answer I am seeking,(actually any answer). For you see, I have asked many, many, many people of opposing beliefs on here why they believe that in Isaiah 9:6 that Jesus, the foretold child to be born is called "Everlasting Father"and "Wonderful counselor" Every person I have asked,(which has been many) has been more than willing to address the titles of "mighty God' and 'Prince of Peace', But NOT ONE has answered to why Christ is called Everlasing Father and Wonderful Counselor (as the HS) is referred to in the NT by Jesus himself)..
Can and will you give me your understanding/explanation of this please?
PS. I am rather disappointed that you did not respond to my post (which was in response to yours) about 'of all' and 'over all' in Col 1: 15 and 16 (unless I missed it along the way because I've been off for a few day...)
Thanks,
Becky
Hi Becky

I am apologize that I didn't directly reply. I had replied to Matt13's comment on the word "of" and simply expanded on his points. I did make a short reply to you that simply directed you to Matt's post. Below I will repost what I had I had posted.

I have searched Strongs Concordance for the words "firstborn over" and "firstborn of". I did the search of the NIV because that is the Bible Becky used, and it has "over" in Colossians 1:15 after "firstborn". The search came back with only One(1) hit that used "firstborn over" in the NIV and that was Colossians 1:15. When I did a search of the NIV for "firstborn of" I had Thirty-two(32) hits, and after reviewing them I feel quite confident that each verse used "firstborn of" in the partitive as the "firstborn" was part of a group
.
The use of "over" at Colossians 1:15 strikes me as "Special Pleading". A couple of points about Paul the author of Colossians 1:15 (a well educated Pharisee).

(1) Paul used the word "preeminence" in Colossians 1:18:

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence" The Greek word used here is "Proteuo" which Strongs G4409 says: "To be first, hold the first place".

I have asked many times why didn't Paul use "Proteuo" in Colossians 1:15 if he was stressing "preeminence"?

(2) Paul was also aware of the Greek Word for "over". See: Strongs G5231----huperano hoop-er-an'- o from 5228 and 507; above upward, i.e. greatly higher (in place or rank):--far above, over.The NIV uses. "Hupo" "huperano" at:

"Ephesions 1:21-22"21 "far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,"

Would Paul not have used "huperano" if he was stressing "preeimenence" in Colossians 1:15?

I did expand on this in a later post as well which I well repost.

In regards to Isaiah 9:6 and your comments--- I will try to post a brief response later tonight.

All the Best

Dave

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#7766 Oct 26, 2013
Dave47 wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Matt
What Trinitarisns don't seem to get is is the concept of Agency. I find this quote from Professor Buchannon cited at the following web site as informative.
http://onlytruegod.org/defense/buchanan.hebre...
"One of the important distinctions to be made is between legal identity and ontological identity. A legal agent is indentical legally to the principal who sent him or her even though the principal and agent are ontologically different people. Suppose, for instance, that the queen of England(a principal)appoints an ambassador(a legal agent) to negotiate with the president of the USA. Even if the ambassador is a male, 21 years old, 6ft feet tall, and weighs 250lbs., legally he is identical to the queen. i.e. he is legally the queen. Anything he negotiates is done in the name of the queen, in the interests of the queen, and at the responsibilty of the queen. It has all the authority of the crown behind it. Rabbis said the man's agent was like the man himself. Legally, this large, young, male is the small, female queen. A legal agent is an apostle. Many kings were considered legal agents of the deity. The pharaoh, for example, was called the son of two different deities at once. This is physically impossible, but not legally. Legally, but not physically or ontologically, these kings were called gods. Just as the ambassador was the queen, so a king is God, legally. In John 14, for instance, Jesus said, "He that has seen me has seen the Father." That is like saying, "He that has seen the ambassador has seen the queen"
All the Best
Dave
Good points.

Really, all these Trinitarians have to do is look-up the word "agent" in the dictionary. They can do it right from Bing.com . Check out the first definition of "agent":

Agent, n:

1.somebody representing another: somebody who officially represents somebody else in business

2.somebody providing service: somebody who provides a particular service for another

3.gov ernment employee: an investigator or representative employed by a government or other organization

-- Bing Dictionary

And let's not leave out Google.com . Here is the first definition from there ...

Agent, n:

1. a person who acts on behalf of another, in particular.
synonyms: representative, emissary, envoy, go-between, proxy, negotiator, broker, liaison, spokesperson, spokesman, spokeswoman;

I believe Google uses the Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English.

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#7767 Oct 26, 2013
Dave47 wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Boni
The following quote from this web site is informative in regards to how "firstborn" is used when Agency is involved.
http://straightbible.org/...
"The answer is little known in the Western world, however, it is preserved in the Jewish Talmud and in modern Jewish Law. The cultural backdrop is the "Hebrew Concept of Agency." By this concept, a head of a family is represented by his first born son or another son in the absence of the first born. The father can also designate an non-family member is need be. This is similar to the Western "Power of Attorney" but the Hebrew concept goes much further. In the Hebrew Concept of Agency, the first born son is the natural representative of his father in all family affairs, secular or religious. This concept is so deep that that first born son even speaks in the first person as though he were in fact the father. Anyone addressing the first born son speaks to him in the first person also. Jesus could say "your sins are forgiven" because he knew his father had done so. Even further, anything done by the son in the father's name bound the father to abide by the son's words even though the father was not present at the time. Sons speaking and acting in their father's name was a common practice then and even today among Middle Easter families.
When the son speaks and acts in the father's name, he is in fact, by cultural convention, equal with his father in all statements and agreements. This is a very serious position and is not taken lightly by Hebrews or anyone from a Middle Eastern culture. The Pharisees were angry because Jesus had the gall to claim he was a natural Agent of the Creator! This was not an issue of WHAT but an issue of WHO to the Pharisees. WHO was Jesus undermined their authority to demand compliance to their interpretation of God's will. The Pharisees could not make a claim of Agency, just a claim of superior comprehension of God's will. Then along comes one who proclaims his Agency for the Creator, thus naturally and completely superseding their authority to interpret God's will. They were not angry over theology or Jesus claiming deity, they were angry over WHO had authority in spiritual matters! Jesus undermined their control over the faithful."
This is an interesting article because it shows the difference between how Hebrews and the Middle East cultures look at words. In John 10:36 Jesus made it Chrystal clear that the Pharisees were upset because he claimed to be the "Son of God" and therefore woud be Gods direct representative on Earth, indeed, the Gospels all say the accusation against Jesus was that he was the "Son of God" not that he was actually God himself or as the Trinitarans want us to believe "God the Son". Somehow Jesus nor his disciples could not say the Trinitarian words "GOD THE SON" ( but had no problem with "God the Father") until uninspired persons did it 300 + years later. Yeah right!
All the Best
Dave
Very interesting. I appreciate that info.

I think that's another one the basic flaws in assumption the Trinitarians are having -- they are not paying attention to the culture of the Scriptures.

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#7768 Oct 26, 2013
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text> LOL You haven't refuted a thing Boni, that's your ego talking for you haven't dissuaded a single believer with your lack of scriptures.
You didn't offer anything along the lines of this discussion, silly.

I simply made fun of you because of what you always do.

And what you don't do ... like finding for us that elusive verse from the Bible you keep having trouble finding that explicitly explains how God is a Trinity. LOL

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#7769 Oct 26, 2013
beckyss wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Boni, I notice that you address Jesus being called "Mighty God' as opposed to Almighty God and Prince of Peace...
NIV Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

I called him "Mighty God" because that is what is written.

I did not call him "Almighty God" because that is not what is written.

Notice the different between "Mighty God" and "Almighty God". They are NOT equal terms but unequal terms. The child has "Mighty God" not "Almighty God".

"Almightiness" is reserved for only one - God the Father.

You didn't notice why the child is just "Mighty God"? I did. You should too.

Take a look at the next verse.

NIV Isaiah 9:7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

You don't notice that the child is called the lower standing of "Mighty God" rather than "Almighty God"? Simply because he doesn't have that power level.

You don't notice that all the titles of the child (Jesus) is guaranteed by the LORD Almighty of verse seven?

You don't notice that these two individuals have different power levels?

You don't notice that the child is called the lower standing "Prince of Peace" rather than "King of Peace"? Again, simply because he doesn't have that power level. The One that guarantees the child's title of "Prince of Peace" is!

Jesus is a "Prince". The Father is Almighty God!

See? Totally not equal.

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#7770 Oct 26, 2013
HopeReigns wrote:
<quoted text>
Unlike you miser...I don't twist scriptures or posters words. You see I understand WHAT Jesus was saying, WHEN he said it and WHERE he said it.
One piece of advise, do some heavy praying before reading the scriptures; ask that your eyes are opened so as to recognize the Holy Spirit is your teacher and not 8 men in NY who don't care about you or your salvation.
Now have you figured out who is the first paraclete?
"Paraclete" means advocate or helper.

Who was the first helper? I think the first "helper" was Eve.

Gen 2:18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." 19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and then closed up the place with flesh.

And we know what happens next. God created woman to help the man.

I thought you'd like that.

:)

By the way, have you found the explicit Trinity teaching verse from the Bible yet?

:)

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#7771 Oct 26, 2013
beckyss wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Dave, You are one person on this forum who does hold opposite beliefs about God the Father, God the Son, and God the HS than me and whom I hold more respect for you than any other person who holds opposite beliefs. I am writing this in response to an honest answer I am seeking,(actually any answer). For you see, I have asked many, many, many people of opposing beliefs on here why they believe that in Isaiah 9:6 that Jesus, the foretold child to be born is called "Everlasting Father"and "Wonderful counselor" Every person I have asked,(which has been many) has been more than willing to address the titles of "mighty God' and 'Prince of Peace', But NOT ONE has answered to why Christ is called Everlasing Father and Wonderful Counselor (as the HS) is referred to in the NT by Jesus himself)..
Can and will you give me your understanding/explanation of this please?
PS. I am rather disappointed that you did not respond to my post (which was in response to yours) about 'of all' and 'over all' in Col 1: 15 and 16 (unless I missed it along the way because I've been off for a few day...)
Thanks,
Becky
Hi Becky

Just a follow up on your question re:- the use of "over" or "of".

I misspoke on my last post. I had not posted another post re: your question about "over" but had given an earlier response to your original post on the same issue.

Some more comments:
(1) The Coptic version of Colossians 1:15 has "firstborn of" and further, has the Coptic word for "of". The Coptic was written when Koine Greek was a living language.

(2) Several people have looked at the Septuagint and one of them made this observation at the B-Greek Forum:

"I have been through all the occurrences of PRWTOTOKOS in the LXX. I present the following usage for proof behind my point:27 examples of partitive genitive (the firstborn is a part of the group): Gen 4:4; 25:13; Ex 11:5; 13:13,15;22:28;34:19,19;34:20, 20; Num 3:40,41,41;3:45,46,50;8:16;18: 15,15; Deut 12:6,17;14:23;15:19; Neh 10:37,37; Ezek 44:30. 42 examples of possessive genitive, such as `my son`,implying membership of the group of sons: Gen 49:3; Ex 4:22; 4:23; 6:14;11:5; Num 1:20; 18:17,17,17;26:5; Deut 21:15,16,17; 33:17;Judg 8:20;2 Sam 3:2; 2 Sam 13:21; 1 Kings 16:34; 1 Chr 1:29; 2:3,13; 2:25,25,27,42,50; 3:1,15; 4:4; 5:1,3; 8:1,30,38,39; 9:5,31,36,44; 26:2; Psalm 134:8; Mica 6:7; Jer 38:9 There are no example of other genitives."

(3) Also one can look at an example in the English language ie:----use of the word "one of" + a group.(a) One of the cows,(b) one of the plants (c) one of the planets and so on. "One of " is a partitive as it is part of the group.

I will respond to the other part of your post as I find time re: "all" and Colossians 1:16.

All the Best

Dave

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#7772 Oct 26, 2013
Boni wrote:
<quoted text>
Good points.
Really, all these Trinitarians have to do is look-up the word "agent" in the dictionary. They can do it right from Bing.com . Check out the first definition of "agent":
Agent, n:
1.somebody representing another: somebody who officially represents somebody else in business
2.somebody providing service: somebody who provides a particular service for another
3.gov ernment employee: an investigator or representative employed by a government or other organization
-- Bing Dictionary
And let's not leave out Google.com . Here is the first definition from there ...
Agent, n:
1. a person who acts on behalf of another, in particular.
synonyms: representative, emissary, envoy, go-between, proxy, negotiator, broker, liaison, spokesperson, spokesman, spokeswoman;
I believe Google uses the Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English.
:)
Yes, and one more point: no one on the earth has ever seen God. No man can see God's face and live.
(Maybe Jesus had his back turned to Thomas, haha.)
1 John 4:12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
Exodus 33:20 New International Version
But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#7773 Oct 26, 2013
Boni wrote:
<quoted text>
Good points.
Really, all these Trinitarians have to do is look-up the word "agent" in the dictionary. They can do it right from Bing.com . Check out the first definition of "agent":
Agent, n:
1.somebody representing another: somebody who officially represents somebody else in business
2.somebody providing service: somebody who provides a particular service for another
3.gov ernment employee: an investigator or representative employed by a government or other organization
-- Bing Dictionary
And let's not leave out Google.com . Here is the first definition from there ...
Agent, n:
1. a person who acts on behalf of another, in particular.
synonyms: representative, emissary, envoy, go-between, proxy, negotiator, broker, liaison, spokesperson, spokesman, spokeswoman;
I believe Google uses the Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English.
:)
Hi Boni

Just a comment about firstborn.

The analogy used was the Monarchy in Great Britain. In Great Britain and, as far as I know, other Monarchies as well, the firstborn has Birthrights that give them inheritances that other siblings don't have ie- succession rights, palaces, etc. It was not until this year that Great Britan changed the Law to allow daughters to have succession rights, if they are the firstborn. Prince Charles is representing the Queen at this years Commonwealth meeting.

All the Best

Dave

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#7774 Oct 27, 2013
Dave47 wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Matt
What Trinitarisns don't seem to get is is the concept of Agency. I find this quote from Professor Buchannon cited at the following web site as informative.
http://onlytruegod.org/defense/buchanan.hebre...
"One of the important distinctions to be made is between legal identity and ontological identity. A legal agent is indentical legally to the principal who sent him or her even though the principal and agent are ontologically different people. Suppose, for instance, that the queen of England(a principal)appoints an ambassador(a legal agent) to negotiate with the president of the USA. Even if the ambassador is a male, 21 years old, 6ft feet tall, and weighs 250lbs., legally he is identical to the queen. i.e. he is legally the queen. Anything he negotiates is done in the name of the queen, in the interests of the queen, and at the responsibilty of the queen. It has all the authority of the crown behind it. Rabbis said the man's agent was like the man himself. Legally, this large, young, male is the small, female queen. A legal agent is an apostle. Many kings were considered legal agents of the deity. The pharaoh, for example, was called the son of two different deities at once. This is physically impossible, but not legally. Legally, but not physically or ontologically, these kings were called gods. Just as the ambassador was the queen, so a king is God, legally. In John 14, for instance, Jesus said, "He that has seen me has seen the Father." That is like saying, "He that has seen the ambassador has seen the queen"
All the Best
Dave
Very good point Dave. I get it completely. But alas...

It's lost on many here.

Keep it up though Dave, maybe, just maybe, the penny will drop one day for them, and the truth will set them free.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#7775 Oct 27, 2013
dee lightful wrote:
<quoted text> Why are you qualifying a plainly spoken scripture?
Who is the exact image of the Father, Jesus or the WTS?
Who is necessary for salvation...Jesus or the WTS?
Who tells the truth and who lies? Jesus or the WT?
Your so lost Dee. I really feel sorry for you.

I'm not qualifying anything, I'm just bringing attention to:

[1.] Actual meanings of phrases or words in the scriptures
[2.] Context in the scriptures

That you people chose not to.

It's that simple.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#7776 Oct 27, 2013
little angel wrote:
<quoted text>
See why you're having problems understanding the Trinity? You don't even label what A,B, and C are. What are they? In the Trinitarian World, depending on what is being equated, they can be the Persons of the Godhead, and the equality can be the substance. This rules out Modalism or Sabellianism.
A=the Father
B=the Son
C=true deity
A's substance = C (true deity). B's substance = C (true deity). Therefore, in substance, A=B; the Father and the Son are both true deity; it is not saying they are the same person!!....unlike the WT explanation of true deity and sub-standard deity, like that possessed by angels and sinful men which is supposed to prove that the Father and Son are not equal.
Uh hmmm.

Tri{3}nity, not Bi{2}nity.

Your one God short of a Tri{3}nity above, if you didn't notice.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#7777 Oct 27, 2013
Schleptik wrote:
<quoted text>
There are many ways of explaining the trinity. They all claim to be true explanations without wavering. That does not prove them true. I don't see the trinity as the truth about God from the Scriptures. There is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. Yes - the word god can be used to refer to others besides the only 'true' God, but this does not mean that because Jesus is the truth, the way, and the life that he is the only 'true' God, an special appellation given by holy spirit (inspiration) to designate the one true God, the God and Father of Jesus Christ, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob -- Jehovah.
New International Version, John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
New Living Translation, Matthew 6:9
Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy.
King James Bible, Psalm 83:18
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.
They mistake: "...Lord..." for the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, not understanding the OT background to "...Lord..." and "...Christ...".

The King of Israel was:

[1.] "...Lord..."
[2.] LXX "...Christ..." or Hebrew "...Anointed One..."
[3.] Given: "...obeisance..."

And thus confuse the Father Jehovah with Jesus, the one:

Acts 2:36

"...( made ) both Lord and Christ..."

“Believe & Salvation is yours”

Since: Dec 12

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#7778 Oct 27, 2013
Boni wrote:
<quoted text>
"Paraclete" means advocate or helper.
Who was the first helper? I think the first "helper" was Eve.
Gen 2:18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." 19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and then closed up the place with flesh.
And we know what happens next. God created woman to help the man.
I thought you'd like that.
:)
By the way, have you found the explicit Trinity teaching verse from the Bible yet?
:)
Nope, Eve wasn't the first paraclete that YHWH sent to us. You are sounding desperate Boni.

I will give you a hint...it's in the Bible...and if you have read the Gospels you would have seen it. Look for that scripture for "another paraclete" and there you will see YHWH as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

“Believe & Salvation is yours”

Since: Dec 12

Location hidden

#7779 Oct 27, 2013
Boni wrote:
<quoted text>
"Paraclete" means advocate or helper.
Who was the first helper? I think the first "helper" was Eve.
Gen 2:18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." 19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and then closed up the place with flesh.
And we know what happens next. God created woman to help the man.
I thought you'd like that.
:)
By the way, have you found the explicit Trinity teaching verse from the Bible yet?
:)
Have you found the explicit verse that teaches:

Theocratic Warfare = lies are scriptural and okay to use; Jesus is Michael; Jesus came in 1914 and picked a publishing company to be God's mouth piece. I have researched the bible for your doctrines and haven't found them yet.

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