What is the trinity?
little angel

Pittsburgh, PA

#5555 Sep 24, 2013
Reply to Post #5552 by Dave....made separate by lack of space:

Interesting, but one detail seems to be always overlooked in the giving back of authority by Jesus to the Father. When Jesus does that, He is something He never was before, namely, the Son of man. Man cannot possess the authority of the Father for eternity, and Jesus gives back to the Father this item, so that God is all in all. We do not have two separate supreme beings, one Who is spirit and one who is spirit and glorified flesh and bone, with each doing his own thing and using the authority as he wishes.
At the end of the age, all authority of every kind will be within Jesus' possession. When every enemy of sin is destroyed and even death is gone, Jesus then will give to the Father the Kingdom, the authority of all the ages of God and man, as a dutiful Son of man.
Greenish Pink

Stillwater, OK

#5556 Sep 24, 2013
The trinity is another doctrine that can't be proven. It's a teaching that contradicts the Bible in so many ways.
Take, for instance, the ransom--Matthew 20:28. Why did Jesus use the word "ransom?" A ransom is a price paid to buy back what was lost. Adam lost perfect human life for us. Who can buy it back for us or ransom us? Ps 49:7 says that NO IMPERFECT HUMAN CAN GIVE GOD A RANSOM TO REDEEM US, BECAUSE THE RANSOM WOULD BE TOO SMALL.(God's justice demands soul for soul/like for like.) Since perfect human life was lost, a perfect human life must be sacrificed to provide a corresponding ransom. IF JESUS WERE GOD, THE RANSOM PRICE WOULD BE TOO HIGH. Adam's equal would provide the ransom. Adam was not a God-man & neither was Jesus. Both were perfect humans. Jesus' sacrifice would buy back everything Adam lost for us, including life forever in paradise on earth!

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#5557 Sep 24, 2013
dee lightful wrote:
The trinity doctrine is expressed in verses Matt3: 16-17. God the Father speaks from heaven, God the Son is baptized, and God the Holy Spirit descends on Jesus.
.
What were the words used to baptize Jesus since he couldn't have been baptize in his own name?
Matthew 3:16-17 NIV says, "As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said,“This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” Are there three gods here, equal to each other, forming one god? Or maybe just three gods not equal to each other. The voice from heaven said to listen to the person who is his son, and the spirit of God descended like a dove alighting on the son. Some say this means three gods equal to the other, yet forming one god, some say it is necessary for salvation to believe that the Father, the Son, and the spirit of God (described as like a dove there) are three gods. Others say it is not describing three gods, but records that the voice of the Father was heard when Jesus was baptized, and the spirit of God which descended like a dove on Jesus.
Matthew 3:16 KJV - And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#5558 Sep 25, 2013
PVA wrote:
<quoted text>
she has twice now responded to two of my post's where i asked the question about did they ,( her church) ever worship JESUS CHRIST and quess what???
she deleted the question from both post's. which means she did in fact see the question...
Does part of the Tri{3}nity God worship another part of the Tri{3}nity God-head?

John 4:21-24

New World Translation

"...Jesus said to her:...((( WE ))) WORSHIP WHAT ((( WE ))) KNOW..."

What does it mean when one part of the Tri{3}nity God worships another Tri{3}nity God?

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#5559 Sep 25, 2013
Jesus worshiped his God.

Someone peaking directly about Jesus:

John 9:31

New Revised Standard Version Anglicised

"...We know that ((( GOD ))) does not listen to sinners, but ((( HE ))) does listen to one who --- WORSHIPS ---((( HIM ))) and obeys ((( HIS ))) will..."

John 4:21-24

New World Translation

"...Jesus said to her:...((( WE ))) WORSHIP WHAT ((( WE ))) KNOW..."

Mark 12:29

“...But, he, Jesus replied ...((( OUR GOD ))), Jehovah,((( HE ))) is one...”

Literally:

“...But, he, Jesus replied ...((( THE GOD OF US ))), Jehovah,((( HE ))) is one...”

Mark 12:33

"...Teacher,------ you well said ------- in line with truth, "((( HE IS ONE )))", and there is no other than "((( HE )))"’ ; and this loving ((( HIM )))..."
Erik

Falkirk, UK

#5560 Sep 25, 2013
Matt13weedhacker wrote:
<quoted text>
Does part of the Tri{3}nity God worship another part of the Tri{3}nity God-head?
John 4:21-24
New World Translation
"...Jesus said to her:...((( WE ))) WORSHIP WHAT ((( WE ))) KNOW..."
What does it mean when one part of the Tri{3}nity God worships another Tri{3}nity God?
Matt, I not you didn't answer my post 5538.

Let's try again...

Just to remind you what Boni said on post 5389, I quote,

"The right column is the rendered translation. We're not interested in that as most Orthodox Trinitarian translations do it the same way in most Bibles these days.

What we are interested in is the LITERAL TRANSLATION IN THE LEFT COLUMN -- the one you were ignoring deliberately for quite a number of days!..."

Revelation 5:13-14:

"13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever." (KJV)

"13 And every created being which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea which is, and the things in them all, I heard saying; To the one sitting on the throne and to the lamb the blesing and the honor and the glory and the might for the ages of the ages" (Emphatic Diaglott, left hand column)

Hebrews 1:6:

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." (KJV)

"when but again he may lead in the first-born inot the habitable, he says; And let worship him all messengers of God." (Emphatic Diaglott, left hand column)

Also, in the Watchtower charter, art. 7, p. 2, July 1945, I clearly read, I quote,

"...and for public Christian worship of Almighy God and Christ Jesus;"

(Please note, IT DOES NOT SAY, "...and for public worship of Almighty God and do obeissance to Christ Jesus;")

So, please could you tell me, how many do you worship?

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#5561 Sep 25, 2013
Dave47 wrote:
<quoted text>

However, I add some following arguments either as new or expanding on Matt’s arguments.

[...]

"...This obedience by Jesus put to rest the question of whether a perfect man who had the choice of obeying or not obeying God when offered the opportunity to seek equality to God would seek equality -- Jesus did not. This left the issue of billions of Humans been born and dying left with no chance of everlasting life. Almighty God through his love gave Jesus full authority to forgive and offer everlasting life to those who accepted him as their Saviour and obeyed the commandments..."

All the Best

Dave
Good point's Dave.

To reject God's sovereignty in favor of ( your own ) is to make your-self equal to God.

You put yourself on pa with God.

And it's an excellent point on, how could someone who is always, and never ceases to be equal to God --- by nature,---(according to Tri{3}nitarian theory), a nature that never changes,(according to them), really be taken seriously as a fear witness in court?

He does not qualify.

Even if,(as old Claudy lordy says), he added humanity to his equal God nature, no other human would have ever been like him.

Unless,(theoretically), Adam was created as both a god and a man as to his nature.

Otherwise the second Adam was not the same as the first Adam.

Hebrews 2:17

NET Bible (©2006)

"...Therefore he had to be ((( MADE ))) like his brothers and sisters --- in --- every --- respect..."

He would not be Gk.,( ALETHINOS ) truly human, like the rest of us, or the first Adam.

But a god.

[FOOTNOTE]: We don't believe Adam ever had been, or was a god in any way.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#5562 Sep 25, 2013
Erik wrote:
<quoted text>
Matt, I not you didn't answer my post 5538.
Let's try again...
Just to remind you what Boni said on post 5389, I quote,
"The right column is the rendered translation. We're not interested in that as most Orthodox Trinitarian translations do it the same way in most Bibles these days.
What we are interested in is the LITERAL TRANSLATION IN THE LEFT COLUMN -- the one you were ignoring deliberately for quite a number of days!..."
Revelation 5:13-14:
"13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever." (KJV)
"13 And every created being which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea which is, and the things in them all, I heard saying; To the one sitting on the throne and to the lamb the blesing and the honor and the glory and the might for the ages of the ages" (Emphatic Diaglott, left hand column)
Hebrews 1:6:
"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." (KJV)
"when but again he may lead in the first-born inot the habitable, he says; And let worship him all messengers of God." (Emphatic Diaglott, left hand column)
Also, in the Watchtower charter, art. 7, p. 2, July 1945, I clearly read, I quote,
"...and for public Christian worship of Almighy God and Christ Jesus;"
(Please note, IT DOES NOT SAY, "...and for public worship of Almighty God and do obeissance to Christ Jesus;")
So, please could you tell me, how many do you worship?
John 4:21-24

New World Translation

"...Jesus said to her:...((( WE ))) WORSHIP what ((( WE ))) know..."
Erik

Falkirk, UK

#5563 Sep 25, 2013
I noticed, you JWs often use John 4:23. Much of your preaching activity is denying the Deity of Christ, while teaching that only the Father (Jehovah) must be worshiped. To establish your doctrine, you use proof-texts and some other different Bible versions, studiously avoiding such passages as Isaiah 9:6; Mattthew 28:9; John 1:1, 8:58-59 and 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:6; and so on - all of which reveal the Deity of Christ and the propriety of worshiping Him.

In fact, the WTBTS translators, in preparing the NWT, were careful to translate the Greek word 'proskuneo'(worship, reverence, do obeissance to) in a very selctive manner. Wherever the word is used of the Father, they translate it as 'worship', but wherever it refers to the Son, they render it as 'do obeissance to'.

However, in John 5:23 we read that the Father requires 'that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father...' So, if you JWs don't give worshipful honor to the Son, then your worship of the Father is in vain, because the same verse goes on to read that:'He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.'(Read also Revelation 5:13-14)
Erik

Falkirk, UK

#5564 Sep 25, 2013
Matt13weedhacker wrote:
<quoted text>
John 4:21-24
New World Translation
"...Jesus said to her:...((( WE ))) WORSHIP what ((( WE ))) know..."
Again, you avoid answering my question from post 5538!

Let's try again...

Just to remind you what Boni said on post 5389, I quote,

"The right column is the rendered translation. We're not interested in that as most Orthodox Trinitarian translations do it the same way in most Bibles these days.

What we are interested in is the LITERAL TRANSLATION IN THE LEFT COLUMN -- the one you were ignoring deliberately for quite a number of days!..."

Revelation 5:13-14:

"13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever." (KJV)

"13 And every created being which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea which is, and the things in them all, I heard saying; To the one sitting on the throne and to the lamb the blesing and the honor and the glory and the might for the ages of the ages" (Emphatic Diaglott, left hand column)

Hebrews 1:6:

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." (KJV)

"when but again he may lead in the first-born inot the habitable, he says; And let worship him all messengers of God." (Emphatic Diaglott, left hand column)

Also, in the Watchtower charter, art. 7, p. 2, July 1945, I clearly read, I quote,

"...and for public Christian worship of Almighy God and Christ Jesus;"

(Please note, IT DOES NOT SAY, "...and for public worship of Almighty God and do obeissance to Christ Jesus;")

SO, PLEASE COULD YOU TELL ME, HOW MANY DO YOU WORSHIP?

(Please be specific...)

I await your answer...

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5565 Sep 25, 2013
Erik wrote:
<quoted text>
I think you are worse than a baby... By saying back then, TWO TRUE GODS [SO FAR], I meant that THEN and SO FAR WE HAD TWO GODS [SO FAR we were discussing TWO TRUE GODS], before CONCLUDING that there are THREE TRUE GODS [and no more SO FAR, because that is IT, THEY ARE THREE], which you don't want to understand...
Remember Erik, we have you on record changing the number of "GODS" you believe in.

I'm curious when you'll go to "FOUR".

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5566 Sep 25, 2013
PVA wrote:
<quoted text>
Great , your here now ...so if you would be so kind...
can you answer the following question...
Did the watch tower society or governing body or russell or rutherford ever teach or instruct your church members to Worship JESUS CHRIST ???
Really loading the question, eh? LOL

How about asking if C.T. Russell or J.F. Rutherford ever teach or instruct my church members to "Worship JESUS CHRIST".

Do which I ask:
In what way? C.T. Russell and J.F. Rutherford are before my time period.

A question for you for the modern era:
Do JWs worship Jesus today?

:)

PS:
Have you found that explicit Trinity teaching verse yet?

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5567 Sep 25, 2013
PVA wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe you should buy a vowel ??? or phone a friend perhaps...
I think you meant that for Erik. He is your THREE GODS worshipping pal of yours.

Perhaps you've even joined him!

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5568 Sep 25, 2013
PVA wrote:
<quoted text>
funny how you left the question out of my quote , that wouldnt be intentional would it???
It was probably nothing material. And you don't do intentional quote editing?

:)

PS:
Have you found that explicit Trinity teaching verse yet?

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5569 Sep 25, 2013
Erik wrote:
<quoted text>
Excellent! I am very happy to hear that and thank you, Boni, you are great help!

Boni, on post 5389 you said, I quote,
"...I, on the other hand, present the PUBLICLY VERIFIABLE FACTS.
http://archive.org/stream/emphaticdiaglott00w ...

The right column is the rendered translation. We're not interested in that as most Orthodox Trinitarian translations do it the same way in most Bibles these days.

What we are interested in is the LITERAL TRANSLATION IN THE LEFT COLUMN -- the one you were ignoring deliberately for quite a number of days!..."

So, you say: the KIT is not the Emphatic Diaglott; The Emphatic Diaglott is the Emphatic Diaglott!

I agree, the Emphatic Diaglott is the Emphatic Diaglott; then, let's use the LEFT COLUMN of the Emphatic Diaglott since you said you are only interested in the LEFT COLUMN OF THE EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT; it is your choice, which I deeply respect!

John 1:1 in the Emphatic Diaglott reads, I repeat,
"In a beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and a god was the word"
You DID NOT quote from the LITERAL TRANSLATION IN THE LEFT COLUMN. Anyone viewing the ONLINE version of the Emphatic Diaglott and comparing what you quoting will assume you of TAMPERING.

LINK:
http://archive.org/stream/emphaticdiaglott00w...

Now let's go on to your change-of-subject ...
Erik wrote:
<quoted text>
Now let's read John 8:58 and Hebrews 1:8 from the LEFT COLUMN of the EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT and let's see what do these scriptures have to say:
"Said to them the Jesus, Indeed indeed I say to you, before Abraham to have been born, I am." (John 8:58)

"concerning but the son; The throne of thee the God for the age [of the age]; a sceptre of rectitude the sceptre of the kingdom of thee." (Hebrews 1:8)

And, let us read John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 from the Emphatic Diagloott too, to see what do these scriptures have to say:
"All through it was done: and without it was done not even one, that has been done." (John 1:3)

"because in him were created the things all, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, the things seen and the things unseen, whether thrones, or lordships, or governments, or authorities; the things all on account of him and for him have been created;" (Colossians 1:16)
(And the list goes on and on...)
Now, Boni, please could you tell me, HOW DO YOU RECONCILE THESE?
I await your reply...
Reconcile them to what? The Trinity?

You need an explicit Trinity teaching verse, Erik. You won't find it in the Bible. And you won't find it in the Emphatic Diaglott either!

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5570 Sep 25, 2013
PVA wrote:
<quoted text>
Erik ,
you wrote:
Thomas said to JESUS My Lord and My GOD...
then
boni says to you, "they did not take him seriously"
that statement can only come from one who is clearly outta her tree..
Expect more of the same in future post's...
Which is true.

Or else you would have pointed out to me anywhere in the NEW TESTAMENT where anyone used Thomas' outburst as the basis of a new dogma where Jesus is God.

You are preaching to your sole choir because you are afraid of the facts, PVA?

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5571 Sep 25, 2013
Erik wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, let me remind you what you said on post 5389:
"The right column is the rendered translation. We're not interested in that as most Orthodox Trinitarian translations do it the same way in most Bibles these days.
What we are interested in is the LITERAL TRANSLATION IN THE LEFT COLUMN -- the one you were ignoring deliberately for quite a number of days!..."
So, let us read John 20:28 from the Emphatic Diaglott and see how it reads, I quote,
"Answered Thomas and said to him; The lord of me and the God of me."
Does it say,'Thomas EXCLAIMED.'? NO! It says,'Thomas said to him;'.
I can see, you JWs are desperately running like a rat, from one translation to another to support the WTBTS falsehoods, but it doesn't work; we need to be consistent, but, I am afraid, you are not...
I'm using several modern translations and the best you can drum-up is a WTBTS conspiracy theory? LOL

Next time you are in a postition where Jesus Christ suddenly materializes before you and talks to you because you didn't believe the news he is resurrected, let's see if you calmly respond in hushed tones instead of being utterly surprised out of your wits!!!

If so, I'll have to ask you how much wine you were drinking and what's holding you up on two feet!!!

You constantly deny reality and manufacture your own.

LOL

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5572 Sep 25, 2013
Boni said:
I reject your change of subject.

The KIT is not the Emphatic Diaglott, Erik.

The Emphatic Diaglott is the Emphatic Diaglott!
Erik wrote:
<quoted text>
This is not change of subject, I am pointing out to you the discrepancies of the WTBTS teachings.
If I were an honest and a good standing JW, I would certainly use the KIT alongside the NWT. But since there is a discrepany between the rendering of some proof-texts in the Emphatic Diaglott and KIT, such as John 1:1, you are running to the Emphatic Diaglott for support. When some other translations render your proof-texts, then you are running like a rat to those translations for support; how disgusting.
This shows me how accurate is the NWT; even you JWs distrust it and avoid using it. Do your elders know that? Or is your husband, or your father an elder or high up somewhere in the WTBTS hierarchy?
No. I'm simply reminding you that the The Emphatic Diaglott is the Emphatic Diaglott!

So, stop squirming all over the place for something irrelevant!

ROFL!!!

PS:
Have you found that explicit Trinity teaching verse yet?
Erik

Falkirk, UK

#5573 Sep 25, 2013
Boni wrote:
<quoted text>
You DID NOT quote from the LITERAL TRANSLATION IN THE LEFT COLUMN. Anyone viewing the ONLINE version of the Emphatic Diaglott and comparing what you quoting will assume you of TAMPERING.
LINK:
http://archive.org/stream/emphaticdiaglott00w...
Now let's go on to your change-of-subject ...
<quoted text>
Reconcile them to what? The Trinity?
You need an explicit Trinity teaching verse, Erik. You won't find it in the Bible. And you won't find it in the Emphatic Diaglott either!
:)
Boni, I really wonder if you an illiterate or blind, or you are playing the SILLY WOMAN. Or you believe I am crazy... But, NO; I am not as you may think or hope...

John 1:1 in the Emphatic Diaglott from the LITERAL TRANSLATION IN THE LEFT COLUMN reads, I repeat,

"In a beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and a god was the word"

As I said, now let's read John 8:58 and Hebrews 1:8 from the LITERAL TRANSLATION IN THE LEFT COLUMN of the EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT and let's see what do these scriptures have to say:

"Said to them the Jesus, Indeed indeed I say to you, before Abraham to have been born, I am." (John 8:58)

"concerning but the son; The throne of thee the God for the age [of the age]; a sceptre of rectitude the sceptre of the kingdom of thee." (Hebrews 1:8)

And, let us read John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 from the Emphatic Diagloott too, to see what do these scriptures have to say:

"All through it was done: and without it was done not even one, that has been done." (John 1:3)

"because in him were created the things all, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, the things seen and the things unseen, whether thrones, or lordships, or governments, or authorities; the things all on account of him and for him have been created;" (Colossians 1:16)

(And the list goes on and on...)

Now, Boni, please could you tell me, HOW DO YOU RECONCILE THESE?

PLEASE NOTE, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT TRINITY, I AM DEMONSTRATING TO YOU from the LITERAL TRANSLATION IN THE LEFT COLUMN of the Emphatic Diaglott that JESUS IS GOD!

I await your reply...
Erik

Falkirk, UK

#5574 Sep 25, 2013
Boni wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm using several modern translations and the best you can drum-up is a WTBTS conspiracy theory? LOL
Next time you are in a postition where Jesus Christ suddenly materializes before you and talks to you because you didn't believe the news he is resurrected, let's see if you calmly respond in hushed tones instead of being utterly surprised out of your wits!!!
If so, I'll have to ask you how much wine you were drinking and what's holding you up on two feet!!!
You constantly deny reality and manufacture your own.
LOL
Boni, please don't play the silly or stupid woman.

You said you don't use WTBTS materials.

Ypu don't want to use the KIT or NWT [probably because you don't trust the KIT and NWT to be the 'most accurate translation' as the WTBTS claim.]

You also said that the Emphatic Diaglott is not a WTBTS material.

You also said, I quote,

"...I, on the other hand, present the PUBLICLY VERIFIABLE FACTS.

http://archive.org/stream/emphaticdiaglott00w ...

The right column is the rendered translation. We're not interested in that as most Orthodox Trinitarian translations do it the same way in most Bibles these days.

What we are interested in is the LITERAL TRANSLATION IN THE LEFT COLUMN -- the one you were ignoring deliberately for quite a number of days!..."

So, I use the LITERAL TRANSLATION IN THE LEFT COLUMN of the Emphatic Diaglott. And guess what, when I am using the LITERAL TRANSLATION IN THE LEFT COLUMN of the Emphatic Diaglott, you are running like a rat from one translatio to another to support your lies and falsehoods.

And to answer your question, I don't drink alcohol and I din't need C T Russels stick to stand on my feet, I have Jesus Christ who is my LORD and my GOD and Saviour...

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Jehovah's Witness Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
JWs are so correct that Jesus is Michael? 2 min I_know_better_now 703
The Difference Between "Princes" 8 min wow 19
What MUST I do to be saved? 15 min Sola Scriptura 3
Has Become Better Than 20 min Sola Scriptura 34
Trinitarians. Have you ever wondered.... 25 min Samson 82
Help needed 1 hr ihavequestions 2
Shell 1 hr Alank 69
New Today music thread 1 hr Alank 1,350
Let's try this again, 144,000 ONLY? No jw has b... 5 hr Jparkh81 265
Trinity...why does it matter?! 7 hr little angel 124
How the anti-trinitarian Watchtower doctrine is... 13 hr Samson 166
More from around the web