What is the trinity?

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

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#5233 Sep 21, 2013
Erik wrote:
<quoted text>
This is another way to divert the subject; you JWs are excellent in that.
I answered your questions, but it is you JWs who avoid answering SIMPLE questoions!
You keep saying you answer questions, but you don't.:-)
Erik

Falkirk, UK

#5234 Sep 21, 2013
1 CORINTHIANS 11:3

JWs seem to be very confused over 1 Corinthians 11:3.

"and the head of Christ is God"; that is, the Father, not as to his divine nature, for in respect to that they are one: Christ, as God, is equal to his Father, and is possessed of the same divine perfections with him; nor is his Father the head of him, in that sense; but as to his human nature, which he formed, prepared, anointed, upheld, and glorified; and in which nature Christ exercised grace on him, he hoped in him, he believed and trusted in him, and loved him, and yielded obedience to him; he always did the things that pleased him in life; he prayed to him; he was obedient to him, even unto death, and committed his soul or spirit into his hands: and all this he did as to his superior, considered in the human nature, and also in his office capacity as Mediator, who as such was his servant; and whose service he diligently and faithfully performed, and had the character from him of a righteous one; so that God is the head of Christ, as he is man and Mediator, and as such only.

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#5235 Sep 21, 2013
Erik wrote:
<quoted text>
JWs say they only worship ONE GOD and that is the Father; yet, they believe in TWO TRUE GODS [so far], in Jesus 'MIGHTY GOD and in the Father 'ALMIGHTTY GOD' who are 'ONE'[the ONLY TRUE GOD]...
So, in fact, according to Revelation 5:13-14, JWs, without realizing it, worship the ONLY TRUE GODS, Jesus Christ and the Father [so far].
From the looks of it, you and PVA don't understand things. Well have a nice day. We could explain but I personally feel it's better to follow Christ's teachings in these things.

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#5236 Sep 21, 2013
Erik wrote:
1 CORINTHIANS 11:3
JWs seem to be very confused over 1 Corinthians 11:3.
"and the head of Christ is God"; that is, the Father, not as to his divine nature, for in respect to that they are one: Christ, as God, is equal to his Father, and is possessed of the same divine perfections with him; nor is his Father the head of him, in that sense; but as to his human nature, which he formed, prepared, anointed, upheld, and glorified; and in which nature Christ exercised grace on him, he hoped in him, he believed and trusted in him, and loved him, and yielded obedience to him; he always did the things that pleased him in life; he prayed to him; he was obedient to him, even unto death, and committed his soul or spirit into his hands: and all this he did as to his superior, considered in the human nature, and also in his office capacity as Mediator, who as such was his servant; and whose service he diligently and faithfully performed, and had the character from him of a righteous one; so that God is the head of Christ, as he is man and Mediator, and as such only.
You don't understand, and your answer proves that.
Erik

Falkirk, UK

#5237 Sep 21, 2013
INTERESTING STORY, WORTH READING IT:

My wife and I were invited by a friend, an ex-Jehovah’s Witness (they don’t know she is a Christian now) to go to a Kingdom Hall to discuss the Bible with an elder who had been in dialogue with my friend for some time. So, we went and had a discussion that lasted 3 and a half hours. It was like a WWF tag team match, with my wife (who mostly was silent) and my friend, against an old black man and a younger black woman.
While I could talk about the doctrinal content, what is more telling is the attitude that was expressed. Of special note is the number of times where either my friend or I would quote straight from Scripture, and the old black man said, at least 6 or 7 times “I don’t care what that [Bible] says!”. This, of course is an amazing comment from someone in an organization which supposedly holds the Bible in such high esteem, and supposedly takes direction from that resource above all others. In addition to that, all three of us were accused of not believing what the Bible says, even though these were times that we merely asked where in the Bible their statements were coming from. So, long story short, the entire gist of the conversation revolved around them ridiculing the Scriptures we quoted, and them accusing us of not going by the Bible because we asked where in that Bible did it say what they said it says.

In addition, I would estimate that I was cut-off from speaking at least 2 or 3 dozen times. I am quite sure that this estimate is conservative. It was totally amazing how extremely and utterly without decent manners this guy was. The other lady wasn’t nearly as bad.

As I said, this post is not necessarily about the exchange of doctrine and interpretation of Bible verses, but rather a lesson in a quickly deteriorating dialogue between two parties who simply cannot be reconciled. Nevertheless, we agreed to meet next week, but that the woman would be out of town, and it would be the gentleman and another person meeting with us. However, we did agree on a couple of subjects to discuss, including prayer to Jesus and whether the Watchtower teaches that only the impersonal “life force” of Michael was implanted in the womb of Mary during the incarnation.

Upon leaving, the lady who had been quiet suddenly became assertive in the extreme. And her message was singular. She stated forcefully and in no uncertain terms to me that if I was to come back, we were NOT to teach them, and that ONLY it was them teaching us. Obviously, this meant that uncomfortable questions which didn’t fit the programing were NOT to be allowed.

PS-Actually, there was one doctrine/Bible issue that stood out. In discussion of John 2:19, where Jesus says “Destroy this temple, and in 3 days I will raise it up”, I asked them both if Jesus is saying “I will raise it up”. It was amazing, because at least 5 times when asked, they immediately wanted to go to something different. So, I had to ask if we could go back to my question. We did that circular sequence every single time, whereby I would ask,“Did Jesus say ‘I will raise it up’?”, and they would go to something different. After dancing that dance quite a few times, they finally answered “yes, Jesus predicted that he would raise up his body”. And then, after saying that, they would say,“But that doesn’t even make sense”. And when I asked if they believed Jesus words that they themselves had just quoted, they said unequivically and angrily,“That isn’t true!!”. Make no mistake about it, this is the very essence of spritual warfare and spiritual blindness.

PS#2- On our way home, as is common, we were both sad and encouraged. Sad because the level of blindness is so stark and uncompromising when foundational Biblical truths are discussed, and encouraged that the Scriptures MUST be true, since the Bible so clearly predicts and describes such spiritual realities. The Bible is TRUE!!

http://jehovahswitnessprotectionprogram.com/c...
Erik

Falkirk, UK

#5238 Sep 21, 2013
INTERESTING STORY, WORTH READING IT:

My wife and I were invited by a friend, an ex-Jehovah’s Witness (they don’t know she is a Christian now) to go to a Kingdom Hall to discuss the Bible with an elder who had been in dialogue with my friend for some time. So, we went and had a discussion that lasted 3 and a half hours. It was like a WWF tag team match, with my wife (who mostly was silent) and my friend, against an old black man and a younger black woman.
While I could talk about the doctrinal content, what is more telling is the attitude that was expressed. Of special note is the number of times where either my friend or I would quote straight from Scripture, and the old black man said, at least 6 or 7 times “I don’t care what that [Bible] says!”. This, of course is an amazing comment from someone in an organization which supposedly holds the Bible in such high esteem, and supposedly takes direction from that resource above all others. In addition to that, all three of us were accused of not believing what the Bible says, even though these were times that we merely asked where in the Bible their statements were coming from. So, long story short, the entire gist of the conversation revolved around them ridiculing the Scriptures we quoted, and them accusing us of not going by the Bible because we asked where in that Bible did it say what they said it says.

In addition, I would estimate that I was cut-off from speaking at least 2 or 3 dozen times. I am quite sure that this estimate is conservative. It was totally amazing how extremely and utterly without decent manners this guy was. The other lady wasn’t nearly as bad.

As I said, this post is not necessarily about the exchange of doctrine and interpretation of Bible verses, but rather a lesson in a quickly deteriorating dialogue between two parties who simply cannot be reconciled. Nevertheless, we agreed to meet next week, but that the woman would be out of town, and it would be the gentleman and another person meeting with us. However, we did agree on a couple of subjects to discuss, including prayer to Jesus and whether the Watchtower teaches that only the impersonal “life force” of Michael was implanted in the womb of Mary during the incarnation.

Upon leaving, the lady who had been quiet suddenly became assertive in the extreme. And her message was singular. She stated forcefully and in no uncertain terms to me that if I was to come back, we were NOT to teach them, and that ONLY it was them teaching us. Obviously, this meant that uncomfortable questions which didn’t fit the programing were NOT to be allowed.

PS-Actually, there was one doctrine/Bible issue that stood out. In discussion of John 2:19, where Jesus says “Destroy this temple, and in 3 days I will raise it up”, I asked them both if Jesus is saying “I will raise it up”. It was amazing, because at least 5 times when asked, they immediately wanted to go to something different. So, I had to ask if we could go back to my question. We did that circular sequence every single time, whereby I would ask,“Did Jesus say ‘I will raise it up’?”, and they would go to something different. After dancing that dance quite a few times, they finally answered “yes, Jesus predicted that he would raise up his body”. And then, after saying that, they would say,“But that doesn’t even make sense”. And when I asked if they believed Jesus words that they themselves had just quoted, they said unequivically and angrily,“That isn’t true!!”. Make no mistake about it, this is the very essence of spritual warfare and spiritual blindness.

PS No 2- On our way home, as is common, we were both sad and encouraged. Sad because the level of blindness is so stark and uncompromising when foundational Biblical truths are discussed, and encouraged that the Scriptures MUST be true, since the Bible so clearly predicts and describes such spiritual realities. The Bible is TRUE!!

http://jehovahswitnessprotectionprogram.com/c...
Erik

Falkirk, UK

#5240 Sep 21, 2013
I am sorry but the above post may appear a few times. I tried to put it on but for some reason didn't appear so I tried more than once...

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#5241 Sep 21, 2013
PVA wrote:
<quoted text>
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live...ASV
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live...KJV
you tell me oh wise one...
What makes you think that the Father did not GIVE HIM that privilege? Philippians 2:6 NLT Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.
Notice it says, "Though he WAS God," (not IS God), and he did not think that he should hold on to equality with God. So clearly God gave Jesus the privilege of being the resurrection and the life. But it is described in the Bible that Jesus was not the God who gave himself these privileges, for which he died anyway, suffered and died and was resurrected.

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#5242 Sep 21, 2013
Erik wrote:
I am sorry but the above post may appear a few times. I tried to put it on but for some reason didn't appear so I tried more than once...
Oh that is OK. We all make mistakes. But it probably wasn't your fault.

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#5243 Sep 21, 2013
Erik wrote:
<quoted text>
JWs say they only worship ONE GOD and that is the Father; yet, they believe in TWO TRUE GODS [so far], in Jesus 'MIGHTY GOD and in the Father 'ALMIGHTTY GOD' who are 'ONE'[the ONLY TRUE GOD]...
So, in fact, according to Revelation 5:13-14, JWs, without realizing it, worship the ONLY TRUE GODS, Jesus Christ and the Father [so far].
Well, Erik, others say they believe in three gods, all "personalities" or "deities" combined in one, isn't that true?:-) C'mon, you can answer that question, can't you?:-)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5244 Sep 21, 2013
Erik wrote:
<quoted text>
I hope you remember you said that Jesus IS NOT A FALSE GOD, which simply means Jesus IS A TRUE GOD. So, since Jesus IS A TRUE GOD, then we have TWO TRUE GODS SO FAR.
Therefore Jesus, who is a TRUE GOD, and the Father, who is a TRUE GOD, according to Jesus' own satement, they are ONE. You can't say you JWs worship the ONLY one TRUE GOD yet they are TWO but ONE - the ONLY TRUE GOD consitsting of TWO TRUE GODS [so far.] It doesn't make sense and it is hypocritical.
You said: "So, since Jesus IS A TRUE GOD, then we have TWO TRUE GODS SO FAR."

Thank you for taking a stand on this issue. You did it before as well. That's more than others of the Opposition who believed in both but failed to openly commit. I guess they anticipated by next questions. Perhaps you can answer.

1. At John 17:3, when Jesus was praying it doesn't look he was praying to himself but to his Father. He declared his Father as "the only true God". I don't see a statement saying that Jesus is "a true God".

2. Furthermore, since you claimed at one time that there is only one true God, which of the two is the false God? Or do you want to claim there are more than "one true God"?

3. Why do you object to the JWs worshipping only one true God since the JWs are strictly singular monotheists just like the Jews were and the primitive Christians were in the first century?

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5245 Sep 21, 2013
Erik wrote:
Boni, I wanted to add that when you JWs say you are worshipping ONLY ONE GOD, in fact you are worshipping TWO GODS [so far] since Jesus and the Father ARE ONE [the ONLY TRUE GOD, singular, yet more than ONE.]
I disagree. The JWs are strict singular monotheists and only worship Jehovah God the Father. We don't believe in a God that is composed of more than One Being.

De 6:4 HEAR, O ISRAEL: THE LORD OUR GOD, THE LORD IS ONE.

The Father and the Son are unequal, separate, and distinct individuals. And Jesus Christ himself has testified directly that not only is he apart and unequal to this God and Father but he has a God and Father who is same as our God and Father.

John 20:17 "Don't cling to Me," Jesus said, "for I haven't yet ascended to the Father. But go find My brothers and tell them,'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.'"

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5246 Sep 21, 2013
Erik wrote:
<quoted text>
I am not arguing with you regading this, BUT just to let you know that I am not STUPID you know, in fact the layout of the post revealed it that it is a COPY-PASTE...
Guess what? Many of the Opposition COPY-PASTE. Sometimes I can tell by the layout too. A bad spelling Opposition suddenly posting neatly formed paragraphs with no spelling errors? I don't think so. LOL

You quote where you copied your material but most of the Opposition doesn't.

Now, the person you charged is not in these exchanges anymore. So your accusation is not being faced and the person is not here to answer them. It appears the life-cycle of this discussion has reached its end.

Since there is more of the Opposition who do un-source-declared COPY-PASTEs than JWs do, I'm the one who should be complaining. But I'm not going to waste any more time on it. What's the point? I suggest you do the same.

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5247 Sep 21, 2013
Erik wrote:
<quoted text>
Once again, you are so blind that you can't see even the end of your nose.
I quoted numerous times before both texts, from the left and right columns, but you just don't see them...
I got you now to acknowledge that there are left and right hand columns. You didn't acknowledge there was a left column until I shamed you to look.

The right column is the rendered translation. We're not interested in that as most Orthodox Trinitarian translations do it the same way in most Bibles these days.

What we are interested in is the LITERAL TRANSLATION IN THE LEFT COLUMN -- the one you were ignoring deliberately for quite a number of days!

I'm glad you finally acknowledged its existence.

(left hand column interlinear reading)

Emphatic Diaglott John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.

"a god was the Word"

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5248 Sep 21, 2013
Erik wrote:
<quoted text>
You didn't answer my TWO SIMPLE questions...
Let's try again...
Please could you tell me where does the Bible say,
1. Jesus was in FORM OF AN ANGEL?
and
2. angels have the FORM OF GOD?
Your post started on Philippians. Philippians is not talking about angels but about God. The operative phrase in Php 2:8 we are discussing is "form of God".

I've shown that the way the Greek used the word "form" is rendered having to do with OUTWARD APPEARANCE rather than the individual's composition.

Next, you brought up an entirely different point: "2. angels have the FORM OF GOD?
2nd Peter 1:4 doesn't say we will have the FORM OF GOD."

Let's think logically. Spirit creatures live in heaven. God is a spirit. Angels are spirits. Those humans that are taken to serve in heaven will have bodies in the form of spirit creatures to live in the heavenly environment. It's like being converted into a fish in order to live in the sea. What will having organs suited for land be of use in an aquatic environment? Get the picture?

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5249 Sep 21, 2013
Maravilla wrote:
<quoted text>
.
. I agree..and the holy spirit is a part of the whole.. So! it's up to them to prove that Christ and his father are not in unity..and the Holy Spirit which is God's active force are not in unity... As the bible does show us..that they are. And anyone calling them as 3 in one.. Is only calling it...as it is.. Just because they chose to insist that it is a term ..used by the Pagans.. Do we ..disavow all words that are used by them??? Hmmm! or just this one whineass one???
False.

JW believe as the Jews and primitive Christians did in absolute singular monotheism of God. The Trinity changes that. It declares that God not One Person but that God is in Three Persons.

Therefore, it is up to **YOU** to show us where in the Bible the Almighty God went from being One Himself to a combination of Three Of Them!

And we're still waiting!

I suggest you step up to the plate and swing for your Trinity with the necessary home-run EXPLICT Trinity teaching verse instead of preaching Trinity to the Trinity choir!

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5250 Sep 21, 2013
Erik wrote:
<quoted text>
I am not interested who claims the AUTHORSHIP! My point is that the WTBTS PUBLISHES IT and SELLS IT; and, as since the WTBTS PUBLISHES IT and SELLS IT, it became a WTBTS material which they, the WTBTS, encourage, or at least should encourage, you JWs to study it. So, you are refering to WTBTS material whether you acknoledge it or not, that's the point!
You don't get it, do you?

The Emphatic Diaglott went public domain!

Do you know what "public domain" is?

Secondly, do you know that the WTS **DID NOT AUTHOR** the Emphatic Diaglott?

Do you know what "authorship" is?

:)

PS:
If your personal criteria for "WTS material" is that the WTS "PUBLISHES IT and SELLS IT", then the KJV, the ASV, and the NJB are "WTS materials" because the WTS have published and sold them too.

Yahoo!!

:)

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5251 Sep 21, 2013
Schleptik wrote:
<quoted text>
Erik keeps talking about how Jesus is Jehovah. Yet there is not one trinity teaching in any of the descriptions he provided. Why is that?
That's a good question.

Modalism is a Trinity heresy according to Orthodox Trinitarianism. They reject Modalism completely.

We should ask Erik if he is a Modalist.

Erik,

Are you a Modalist? You know what a Modalist is?

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5252 Sep 21, 2013
Erik,

Are you a Modalist? You know what a Modalist is?

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#5253 Sep 21, 2013
Erik wrote:
<quoted text>
You said: Jesus IS NOT a FALSE GOD!
I said: Jesus IS NOT a FALSE GOD!
You said: You only worship ONE GOD!
I say: You worship at least TWO GODS since Jesus and the Father are ONE!
You said: You have ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, yet you have TWO TRUE GODS since Jesus and the Father are ONE!
I said: Same!
You said: There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD!
I said: There are TWO TRUE GODS [SO FAR]!
That's my answer...
Technically, I said that Jesus is not "a false god".

True that I worship "the one true God".

True that I believe in God and in other gods as mentioned in the Bible as actually existing.

As I stated before, the fact is that Jehovah's Witnesses recognize and accept that the Bible uses the designation "god" with regard to Jesus.(John 1:1, 18) But Jesus himself quoted Psalm 82:6, agreeing that even powerful human judges are termed "gods." (John 10:33-36) And the Bible even uses the word "god" signifying a powerful one, an angel, in reference to Satan.(2 Corinthians 4:4)

Obviously it would be incorrect to conclude simply from such uses of the term "god" that any such creature is equal to the Creator Jehovah God Himself and is deserving to be worshiped as such. Jehovah's Witnesses don't worship "gods". We only worship the One God Jehovah.

But the Opposition would rather distort and prejudice the JW position on this matter rather than heed the Scriptural explanation as given and accept it.

And then the Opposition claims that their TWO or even THREE GODS position is a superior one as they double-talk this as "monotheism".

Go figure!

:)

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