non-JW

Mexico

#81 Jun 21, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
Honest people who understand Greek.
Sorta like that Freddy Franz guy (who claimed to speak ancient Hebrew) who couldn't read ancient Hebrew in a Scottish court when called-on to do so?

Gareth, really you should consult a dictionary. Honest means telling to the truth, honest is not defined as agreeing with your organization.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#82 Jun 21, 2012
The Real Karen wrote:
And just who that translated your bible understood Greek?
I have MANY Bibles and I translated the verse MYSELF because I wasn't prepared to trust any of them.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#83 Jun 21, 2012
The Real Karen wrote:
<quoted text>
But truth is, you are obeying the GB aka F&DS and not God and Christ. No place does the bible say come to a religion or organization for salvation, but it does say that Jesus Christ is our Savior.
Acts 16:30-31 In answer to the Philippian Jailer's question of “What must I do to be saved?” They responded,“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”
Did Paul tell this Jailer to do anything else but believe? NO he did not, he knew that believing was the start to everything else that would fall into place for salvation.
Jesus is the Truth, The Way and the LIGHT. HE is the only truth Aneirin, there is no religion, no organization ONLY HIM.
If you reject Jesus Christ's congregation (which the Bible tells us is organized) then you reject Jesus.

And NOTHING you can say will change this Bible verse:

*** Matt 7:21 Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

No matter how hard you argue against it.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#84 Jun 21, 2012
The Real Karen wrote:
<quoted text>
But truth is, you are obeying the GB aka F&DS and not God and Christ. No place does the bible say come to a religion or organization for salvation, but it does say that Jesus Christ is our Savior.
Poor Karen:

*** Acts 2:47 ... The Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Who is "they"?

*** Acts 14:23 When they had appointed elders for them in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they had believed.

*** Titus 1:5 I left you in Crete for this reason, that you would set in order the things that were lacking, and appoint elders in every city, as I directed you;

*** 1 Cor 5:11-13 But as it is, I wrote to you not to associate with anyone who is called a brother who is a sexual sinner, or covetous, or an idolater, or a slanderer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner. Do not even eat with such a person. For what have I to do with also judging those who are outside? Do you not judge those who are within? But those who are outside, God judges. "Put away the wicked man from among yourselves."

*** Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch on behalf of your souls, as those who will give account, that they may do this with joy, and not with groaning, for that would be unprofitable for you.

Yes, "they" are highly structured and organized people.

*** Acts 2:47 ... The Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Where did the Lord send those who were being saved?

*** Acts 2:47 ... The Lord ADDED TO THEIR NUMBER day by day THOSE WHO WERE BEING SAVED.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#85 Jun 21, 2012
non-JW wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorta like that Freddy Franz guy (who claimed to speak ancient Hebrew) who couldn't read ancient Hebrew in a Scottish court when called-on to do so?
Fred Franz never claimed to speak Ancient Hebrew.

Fred Franz was not asked to read Ancient Hebrew in the Scottish court.

These anti-JE fanatics don't care about actually facts they just repeat what they think they read on the internet somewhere.

Fred Franz was asked to translate English into Ancient Hebrew which he refused to do. Translating from English to Hebrew is a very different skill from translation from Hebrew to English.

Furthermore this has no bearing on the conversation. We have no idea who translated the NWT. Only rumor and gossip spread abot by the enemies of Jehovah's people.

“Tell the WORLD about JESUS”

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#86 Jun 21, 2012
non-JW wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow Gareth quite a list here of your plan of salvation. lets pick out your points here and compare a little:
1- Salvation is based upon OBEDIENCE to Christ.
2- I OBEY Jesus Christ and associate with his disciples
3- accords with the ORGANIZATIONAL INSTRUCTIONS given to us by his appointed disciples.
4- Being part of God's organization (the Christian congregation) is therefore an act of obedience to God and Christ.
**********
1:
Ephesians 2:
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
2:
Matthew 22:
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied:“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39 And the second is like it:‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
3:
Colossians 2:
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.
11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ,
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.
15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
4:
Acts 4:
11 Jesus is
“‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
Amen & God Bless you :) I TRULY HOPE these scriptures of TRUTH can break through the "Laws" of Obedience to MEN that the WTO instills in their followers :)
non-JW

Villahermosa, Mexico

#87 Jun 21, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
Fred Franz never claimed to speak Ancient Hebrew.
Fred Franz was not asked to read Ancient Hebrew in the Scottish court.
These anti-JE fanatics don't care about actually facts they just repeat what they think they read on the internet somewhere.
Fred Franz was asked to translate English into Ancient Hebrew which he refused to do. Translating from English to Hebrew is a very different skill from translation from Hebrew to English.
Furthermore this has no bearing on the conversation. We have no idea who translated the NWT. Only rumor and gossip spread abot by the enemies of Jehovah's people.
Gareth is in denial.

Anybody else who's interested can Google it.
non-JW

Villahermosa, Mexico

#88 Jun 21, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
Fred Franz never claimed to speak Ancient Hebrew.
Fred Franz was not asked to read Ancient Hebrew in the Scottish court.
These anti-JE fanatics don't care about actually facts they just repeat what they think they read on the internet somewhere.
Fred Franz was asked to translate English into Ancient Hebrew which he refused to do. Translating from English to Hebrew is a very different skill from translation from Hebrew to English.
Furthermore this has no bearing on the conversation. We have no idea who translated the NWT. Only rumor and gossip spread abot by the enemies of Jehovah's people.
Gareth:
"We have no idea who translated the NWT".

*****

Gareth-
You may not know, but many others do. I believe Ray Franz did come out and say who did. He said a lot about the org. The org. likes to use the courts to protect itself but for some reason Ray was not sued for slander that I'm aware of.

*****

We believe the WTS is one of God's enemies.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#89 Jun 21, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
I have MANY Bibles and I translated the verse MYSELF because I wasn't prepared to trust any of them.
I don't believe you, but good way of trying to get out of truthfully answering.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#90 Jun 21, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
Poor Karen:
*** Acts 2:47 ... The Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Who is "they"?
*** Acts 14:23 When they had appointed elders for them in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they had believed.
*** Titus 1:5 I left you in Crete for this reason, that you would set in order the things that were lacking, and appoint elders in every city, as I directed you;
*** 1 Cor 5:11-13 But as it is, I wrote to you not to associate with anyone who is called a brother who is a sexual sinner, or covetous, or an idolater, or a slanderer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner. Do not even eat with such a person. For what have I to do with also judging those who are outside? Do you not judge those who are within? But those who are outside, God judges. "Put away the wicked man from among yourselves."
*** Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch on behalf of your souls, as those who will give account, that they may do this with joy, and not with groaning, for that would be unprofitable for you.
Yes, "they" are highly structured and organized people.
*** Acts 2:47 ... The Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Where did the Lord send those who were being saved?
*** Acts 2:47 ... The Lord ADDED TO THEIR NUMBER day by day THOSE WHO WERE BEING SAVED.
NOT ONE of these say come to an organization to be saved.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#91 Jun 21, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
If you reject Jesus Christ's congregation (which the Bible tells us is organized) then you reject Jesus.
And NOTHING you can say will change this Bible verse:
*** Matt 7:21 Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
No matter how hard you argue against it.
I am part of Jesus organization, his organization is of those who have given their lives to him and have accepted him as their savior. You accept the organization as yours, no matter how hard you argue against it.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#92 Jun 21, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
Fred Franz never claimed to speak Ancient Hebrew.
Fred Franz was not asked to read Ancient Hebrew in the Scottish court.
These anti-JE fanatics don't care about actually facts they just repeat what they think they read on the internet somewhere.
Fred Franz was asked to translate English into Ancient Hebrew which he refused to do. Translating from English to Hebrew is a very different skill from translation from Hebrew to English.
Furthermore this has no bearing on the conversation. We have no idea who translated the NWT. Only rumor and gossip spread abot by the enemies of Jehovah's people.
yes we do know who translated it and you know its true. Fred Franz could not translate it thats why he refused. He was only in college a very short time and never got the skills he needed. NONE of the others had any skills in translating the bible.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#93 Jun 21, 2012
non-JW wrote:
<quoted text>
Gareth:
"We have no idea who translated the NWT".
*****
Gareth-
You may not know, but many others do. I believe Ray Franz did come out and say who did. He said a lot about the org. The org. likes to use the courts to protect itself but for some reason Ray was not sued for slander that I'm aware of.
*****
We believe the WTS is one of God's enemies.
Excellent point about them not suing him over what he said about who translated the bible. If it was not true, why didnt they sue him?

“Tell the WORLD about JESUS”

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#94 Jun 21, 2012
Aneirin wrote:
<quoted text>
I have MANY Bibles and I translated the verse MYSELF because I wasn't prepared to trust any of them.
Well if you have looked into HOW accurate the bible translations are to make sure you can trust how it was translated- How can you put your faith in the WTO's rendition the NWT when they have changed SO MANY KEY PASSAGES away from the original transcripts??

Like I pointed out to you earlier- the greek word WORSHIP they kept Worship when it referenced God, but CHANGED THE SAME GREEK WORD THEY TRANSLATE WORSHIP FOR GOD- TO OBEDIENCE when it is referenced to Jesus- why would that be Aneirin??? what would make "honest mouth pieces of Jehovah" deliberately mistranslate a simple word in the greek, well known to mean WORSHIP- into OBEDIENCE???? Hmm- maybe because worshiping our Savior & King is not part of their agenda...But it is Gods Agenda-its in his word- Our Heavenly Father Gave Jesus all the power & authority to be our KING- & what King- from GOD is not worthy of praise & worship from his people??? The scriptures root words say we are to WORSHIP HIM- thats why there is NO HOLY SPIRIT IN THE KINGDOM HALLS- its spiritually DRIER THAN A SAND BOX!!!

John 9:38
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped him.

****And you never have answered my question as to the "MEMORIAL"-
TELL ME WERE DOES IT SAY IN THE BIBLE TO PASS AROUND BREAD & WINE SYMBOLICALLY & NOT PARTAKE???
And why do they teach you the reason why you should not partake is that Jesus told the Disciples to take the communion & so only the anointed can take it
****If that reasoning is sound, biblical, & true- Then logically in light of:
Mark 16:14-16
14 Afterward he appeared **unto the eleven** as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he ***said unto them***, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

***Why doesnt this same "Logic" apply to spreading the Gospel??? Since He was speaking to & told the Disciples to do the preaching work...so why are you "earthly hope sheep" preaching door to door?

They tell you to publicly refuse to partake of the bread & wine- symbolically making you PUBLICLY REJECT being a member of the body of Christ...witch is what a Christian is...a member of the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:15-17
15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

And your OK with this??? A man made theory tells you that your not good enough to be part of the body of Christ- NOT one Scripture to support the theory...& your OK with that?

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#95 Jun 21, 2012
non-JW wrote:
<quoted text>
Gareth:
"We have no idea who translated the NWT".
*****
Gareth-
You may not know, but many others do. I believe Ray Franz did come out and say who did. He said a lot about the org. The org. likes to use the courts to protect itself but for some reason Ray was not sued for slander that I'm aware of.
*****
We believe the WTS is one of God's enemies.
Ray Franz published who he THOUGHT was on the translation committee. But Ray Franz was out of the country for the entire period that the NWT was being translated. And there is NO INFORMATION whatsoever on who did the actual translation work.

It is quite possible that the actual translators were not members of the translation committee and that the translation committee simply oversaw the process.

NO ONE KNOWS.

Only rumor and speculation from enemies of Jehovah's people.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#96 Jun 21, 2012
The Real Karen wrote:
Excellent point about them not suing him over what he said about who translated the bible. If it was not true, why didnt they sue him?
Because Jehovah's Witnesses are nice genuine Christian people.

And, after all, Ray Franz simply said who he THOUGHT was on the translation committee, he didn't definitely state WHO did the actual translation work.

Furthermore if I publicly claim that Karen translated the NWT there is NOTHING she could do about it. Not unless she can prove that she lost money or was otherwise hurt as a direct result of my false claims.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#97 Jun 21, 2012
Jesus_Witness wrote:
Well if you have looked into HOW accurate the bible translations are to make sure you can trust how it was translated- How can you put your faith in the WTO's rendition the NWT when they have changed SO MANY KEY PASSAGES away from the original transcripts??
Only religiously biased 'experts' come to that conclusion. Independat experts tend to feel that the NWT is a good translation sticking closely to the original language.
Jesus_Witness wrote:
Like I pointed out to you earlier- the greek word WORSHIP they kept Worship when it referenced God, but CHANGED THE SAME GREEK WORD THEY TRANSLATE WORSHIP FOR GOD- TO OBEDIENCE when it is referenced to Jesus- why would that be Aneirin???
You are badly mistaken.

The word in question is 'proskuneo'. It does NOT mean 'worship' is means 'obeisance' or a 'low bow'.

So the only time the word 'proskuneo' can be translated as 'worship' instead of its ACTUAL meaning (a low bow) is when somthing in context suggests that more tham bowing is taking place.

It is actually the religiously biased trinitarian translations that change the meaning of 'proskuneo' from 'low bow' to 'worship' when Jesus is mentioned in order to turn Jesus into God in support of their false, man made, pagan inspired trinity theory.
Jesus_Witness wrote:
what would make "honest mouth pieces of Jehovah" deliberately mistranslate a simple word in the greek, well known to mean WORSHIP- into OBEDIENCE????
It is the trinitarian 'scholars' who have twisted the meaning of the "simple word in the greek" ('proskuneo') to mean WORSHIP when it REALLY means 'obeisance'.
Jesus_Witness wrote:
Hmm- maybe because worshiping our Savior & King is not part of their agenda...
The Bible NEVER tells us to worship Jesus. The Bible ONLY authorises us to worship God.

It is by MISTRANSLATING the word 'proskuneo' as 'worship' rather than what it REALLY means 'low bow' that had lead people into worship of Jesus rather than God.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#98 Jun 21, 2012
The Real Karen wrote:
I don't believe you, but good way of trying to get out of truthfully answering.
You wouldn't recognize truth if you dropped it on your foot.

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#99 Jun 21, 2012
The Real Karen wrote:
<quoted text>
I am part of Jesus organization, his organization is of those who have given their lives to him and have accepted him as their savior. You accept the organization as yours, no matter how hard you argue against it.
Can you leave Jesus' organization and still be saved?

(Watch Karen try to wriggle out of answering that one)

“Paradise Earth”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#100 Jun 21, 2012
The Real Karen wrote:
<quoted text>
yes we do know who translated it and you know its true. Fred Franz could not translate it thats why he refused. He was only in college a very short time and never got the skills he needed. NONE of the others had any skills in translating the bible.
Karen, you don't know who translated it.

You can lie and pretend you do all you like. But you will never provide any proof of who translated it. You can only produce the ASSUMPTIONS that some of the enemies of Jehovah's people have made.

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