The false trinity doctrine.

Since: Nov 11

Edwardsville, IL

#3984 Dec 9, 2012
miseracord wrote:
<quoted text>Jehovah had an organization back then. He has an organization now.
Please provide scripture which talks about God's organization 'back then'..the way I read it, it was a group of equally blessed men who had the priviledge of either knowing and physically seeing Christ in action or who were spoken to and given the truth by the HS who then went out into the world to spread the Good news about Christ and Salvation, not about 'paradise earth'. And these men did not sit up in some ivory tower and collect all kinds of money to publish documents and sell them.. they were witnesses to the power, strength, love, forgiveness etc... of God and went out themselves and preached. No organization with a governing body who were thought of as the blessed ones..
Any man who accepts Jesus Christ as his/her savior is just as blessed as the next guy and just as capable of receiving the truth and blessings from God's holy spirit. ANY PERSON...

Where is this organization spoken about in God's holy words?

“Close enough”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#3986 Dec 9, 2012
beckyss wrote:
<quoted text>
Please provide scripture which talks about God's organization 'back then'..the way I read it, it was a group of equally blessed men who had the priviledge of either knowing and physically seeing Christ in action or who were spoken to and given the truth by the HS who then went out into the world to spread the Good news about Christ and Salvation, not about 'paradise earth'. And these men did not sit up in some ivory tower and collect all kinds of money to publish documents and sell them.. they were witnesses to the power, strength, love, forgiveness etc... of God and went out themselves and preached. No organization with a governing body who were thought of as the blessed ones..
Any man who accepts Jesus Christ as his/her savior is just as blessed as the next guy and just as capable of receiving the truth and blessings from God's holy spirit. ANY PERSON...
Where is this organization spoken about in God's holy words?
I hear about religious publications being sold all the time, and they are not being sold by Jehovah's Witnesses. Go to any bookstore, and they are quite expensive. Religious leaders write books and sell them. Churches collect money all the time. If you go to church, I'm sure you know what I mean. But they all have different doctrines. So they form sects. Each is an organization. It is up to each person to determine which religion is right for him. But the Bible speaks of organized groups in the first century. And before, from Moses through the first century. Many think there is no religious organization that God uses to dispense truth about Him and His Son. Others think there are religions that God approves of. Catholics believe their religion is from God; Baptists believe their religion is from God. Jews believe their religion is God-approved as well. And so forth. Just as Jesus also said,(John 3) The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone that has been born from the spirit.

Since: Dec 12

Location hidden

#3987 Dec 9, 2012
miseracord wrote:
<quoted text>
I hear about religious publications being sold all the time, and they are not being sold by Jehovah's Witnesses. Go to any bookstore, and they are quite expensive. Religious leaders write books and sell them. Churches collect money all the time. If you go to church, I'm sure you know what I mean. But they all have different doctrines. So they form sects. Each is an organization. It is up to each person to determine which religion is right for him. But the Bible speaks of organized groups in the first century. And before, from Moses through the first century. Many think there is no religious organization that God uses to dispense truth about Him and His Son. Others think there are religions that God approves of. Catholics believe their religion is from God; Baptists believe their religion is from God. Jews believe their religion is God-approved as well. And so forth. Just as Jesus also said,(John 3) The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone that has been born from the spirit.
Right on.

Since: Dec 12

Location hidden

#3988 Dec 9, 2012
rachel123 wrote:
<quoted text>
The watch tower admits the name Jehovah is wrong.Yet here you are letting them down by arguing against them and challenging me ?
Go settle your difference with them first then come to me,with a clear head and give me some sort of a challenge.
It doesn't matter if Gods name is not exact. It's a name and it's much better than just GOD. Lets call you Rachal..........works very well..........

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#3989 Dec 9, 2012
Stanley Walker wrote:
<quoted text>
A bold assertion, but can you establish what you have said as being true?
Who were the translators on the New World Bible Translation Committee in 1947?
What are their names?
Were they qualified in Hebrew and/or Greek?
The many well accepted Protestant and Catholic translations that have followed the NWT by decades, read very much the same as the NWT. They attest to the accuracy and ability of the NWT translators.

I have posted many different verses that show the popular and accepted translations by Protestant translators as following the NWT in thought and many times the exact same wording as the NWT, proves that these earlier translators of the NWT were on the leading edge of translating the Scriptures into modern English.

Why does no one ask for the qualifications and accredited schooling of the NASB translators, that remain aynomonous, or the how about the translators of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures? Why does no one question their qualifications?

"delightful" cites Steven Byington (New Living Translation) as a qualified Greek scholar. Others cite Robert Young,(Young's Literal Translation of the Bible) as an acredited Greek scholar. Yet these men were self taught Greek scholars.

“By grace you have been saved”

Since: May 09

Banbury, UK

#3990 Dec 9, 2012
miseracord wrote:
yet among those others claiming to know Jesus they disagree on vital issues. So someone must not be telling the truth among them.
What do you mean by "vital?"

I understand the word to mean "absolutely necessary" or "essential."

If you agree with that definition, precisely what "absolutely necessary" or "essential" issues do you have in mind?

And more importantly, issues which are "absolutely necessary" or "essential" for what purposes?

“By grace you have been saved”

Since: May 09

Banbury, UK

#3991 Dec 9, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
My post wasn't about the verse that you quoted, but about your comment regarding the NWT translators not having the ability to translate.

The translators of the NWT were very careful and accomplished translators
Stanley Walker wrote:
A bold assertion, but can you establish what you have said as being true?

Who were the translators on the New World Bible Translation Committee in 1947?

What are their names?

Were they qualified in Hebrew and/or Greek?
Richardnak wrote:
The many well accepted Protestant and Catholic translations that have followed the NWT by decades, read very much the same as the NWT. They attest to the accuracy and ability of the NWT translators.
With respect, Richard, you did not answer the question.

We were discussing whether, your assertion that the New World Bible translators had "the ability to translate" was correct or not and whether your assertion that they were "accomplished translators" was correct or not.

As I said, these are bold assertions of yours, and you need to prove what you have said is true or admit you made an error.

How come you cannot tell me who the translators were on the New World Bible Translation Committee in 1947?

Why is it that you cannot tell me their names?

How come you cannot tell me when they qualified in Hebrew and/or Greek?

Have you heard of the Douglas Walsh court case held in Scotland in 1954?

“Close enough”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#3992 Dec 10, 2012
Stanley Walker wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
With respect, Richard, you did not answer the question.
He did, but I do not think you discerned the answer. He told you the many other translations in comparison testify to the merit of the NWT.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#3993 Dec 10, 2012
Stanley Walker wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
With respect, Richard, you did not answer the question.
We were discussing whether, your assertion that the New World Bible translators had "the ability to translate" was correct or not and whether your assertion that they were "accomplished translators" was correct or not.
As I said, these are bold assertions of yours, and you need to prove what you have said is true or admit you made an error.
How come you cannot tell me who the translators were on the New World Bible Translation Committee in 1947?
Why is it that you cannot tell me their names?
How come you cannot tell me when they qualified in Hebrew and/or Greek?
Have you heard of the Douglas Walsh court case held in Scotland in 1954?
Hi Stanley,

I believe that the many more recent translations of the Bible, that have been produced by many different scholars, attest to the abilities of the aynomonus translators of the NWT.

It would be speculation on my part to try and name any of these men, just as it would be speculation on my part to try and name any of the scholars that produced the NASB, a translation that has kept their translators aynomonus.

I can't tell you the names of the translators of the NASB, or the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures either. Can you? But we all accept these translations as credible, do we not?

Yes, I have read the Douglas Walsh case, and it doesn't prove that Fred Frantz wasn't qualified to translate the Hebrew or the Greek text to modern English.

“By grace you have been saved”

Since: May 09

UK

#3994 Dec 10, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
Yes, I have read the Douglas Walsh case, and it doesn't prove that Fred Frantz wasn't qualified to translate the Hebrew or the Greek text to modern English.
You asserted that the New World Bible translators had "the ability to translate" and were "accomplished translators."

You need to prove what you have said is true or admit you made an error.

Was Frederick Franz, then Vice President of the Watchtower Society and principal translator on the New World Bible Translation Committee, qualified in Hebrew and/or Greek, or was he not?

"I have not got a clue" is an acceptable answer.

“By grace you have been saved”

Since: May 09

UK

#3995 Dec 10, 2012
miseracord wrote:
yet among those others claiming to know Jesus they disagree on vital issues. So someone must not be telling the truth among them.
What do you mean by "vital?"

I understand the word to mean "absolutely necessary" or "essential."

If you agree with that definition, precisely what "absolutely necessary" or "essential" issues do you have in mind?

And more importantly, issues which are "absolutely necessary" or "essential" for what purpose?

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#3996 Dec 10, 2012
Stanley Walker wrote:
<quoted text>
You asserted that the New World Bible translators had "the ability to translate" and were "accomplished translators."
You need to prove what you have said is true or admit you made an error.
Was Frederick Franz, then Vice President of the Watchtower Society and principal translator on the New World Bible Translation Committee, qualified in Hebrew and/or Greek, or was he not?
"I have not got a clue" is an acceptable answer.
Hi Stanley,

Raymond Frantz who was Fred's nephew I believe, was a detractor that had been disfellowshipped, and was a former governing body member.

He admits that Fred Frantz was very capable to translate Hebrew to modern English, and was especially qualified to translate the Biblical Greek to modern English.

Why would Raymond ever admit such, if it weren't true, as he was seeking to detract Jehovah's Witnesses in every way that he could.

Since: Dec 12

Location hidden

#3997 Dec 10, 2012
red blood relative wrote:
<quoted text>
sure..... and hitler will be resurrected too.....some will be resurrected to a resurrection of judgment.
see, here's the thing.....there is more than one place in the resurrection to arrive at..... some will end up in a hell-like place with all their buddies till the finalli at the end of the 1000 yrs..... others will end up in a paradise like section....satan and his unrepentant buddies will also be in a special section confined.
being imperfect is not an excuse to self-appoint yourself to rule, and then proceed to keep it going by beating your fellow slaves.
your jw leadership has got you convinced its ok to be as wicked as you like, and the worst that will happen is you will show up in paradise and start over.... not so, pal.... your judgment started when you were born.
Freakshow....there is no hell. Death is dead....see a dictionary tool. All people who never heard the kingdom message will be ressurected .......Hitler and other.........to a ressurection of life or death if they oppose.

Since: Jul 11

Portadown

#3998 Dec 10, 2012
miseracord wrote:
<quoted text>Really, rachel, if you expect any sort of discussion, it would be better if you would call me miseracord, or mc.
Twister of the watch tower misery,I never invited you to do anything.YOU!invited YOU! to answer for another poster and then when you found out I wasn't in the slightest intimidated by your bully boy tactics you ran!
Now have you any answers yet to the post you invited yourself in on?

Since: Dec 12

Location hidden

#3999 Dec 10, 2012
rachel123 wrote:
<quoted text>
Twister of the watch tower misery,I never invited you to do anything.YOU!invited YOU! to answer for another poster and then when you found out I wasn't in the slightest intimidated by your bully boy tactics you ran!
Now have you any answers yet to the post you invited yourself in on?
Freak of freakshows.......... I am here, but you must know that I am highly intelligent. You are a scab on anyone. I urge you to seek help.

Since: Jul 11

Portadown

#4000 Dec 10, 2012
miseracord wrote:
<quoted text>Rachel, I detect that you are very angry at me and Jehovah's Witnesses in general. Since you are so very angry, it is not a good atmosphere to discuss these things peaceably. Have a good night, day, or afternoon.
I never even knew you existed, nor posted to you, nor invited you to post to me.You!invited You!not me!

Take a look at your first post to me miserycord,you hypocrite,take a look at the atmosphere surrounding that,big aspiring bullyboy of the watch tower.

Now take a look at the anger of the one that matters miserycord.

Jeremiah 23.
32.Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

Deuteronomy 18.
22.When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

The post You invited You to respond to was a request for Scriptural answers, have you got any?

Since: Jul 11

Portadown

#4001 Dec 10, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Stanley,
Raymond Frantz who was Fred's nephew I believe, was a detractor that had been disfellowshipped, and was a former governing body member.
He admits that Fred Frantz was very capable to translate Hebrew to modern English, and was especially qualified to translate the Biblical Greek to modern English.
Why would Raymond ever admit such, if it weren't true, as he was seeking to detract Jehovah's Witnesses in every way that he could.
If he spoke the truth,why was Raymond the truthful disfellowshipped?

Since: Jul 11

Portadown

#4002 Dec 10, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Stanley,
Raymond Frantz who was Fred's nephew I believe, was a detractor that had been disfellowshipped, and was a former governing body member.
He admits that Fred Frantz was very capable to translate Hebrew to modern English, and was especially qualified to translate the Biblical Greek to modern English.
Why would Raymond ever admit such, if it weren't true, as he was seeking to detract Jehovah's Witnesses in every way that he could.
Why would the watch claim they shall know a prophet was among them and then when their prophecies failed,deny they made any?

Why did Freddy Franz lie under oath in court?

Why did the watch tower claim Johannes Greber a Catholic Priest supported their rendering of John 1v1.in 1965,when they new since 1956,he dabbled in the spirit world?

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#4003 Dec 10, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>........
Why does no one ask for the qualifications and accredited schooling of the NASB translators, that remain aynomonous, or the how about the translators of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures? Why does no one question their qualifications?
"delightful" cites Steven Byington (New Living Translation) as a qualified Greek scholar. Others cite Robert Young,(Young's Literal Translation of the Bible) as an acredited Greek scholar. Yet these men were self taught Greek scholars.
Hi Richardnak

Some interesting comments re:- above post:

(1)The NASB Translators wanted to remain anonymous and used the following rationale in the jacket of the “Reference Edition (1971) of the New American Standard Bible” where it states:

“We have not used any scholar’s name for reference or recommendations because it is our belief God’s Word should stand on its merits.”

Further,this is a partial quote from this web site: http://ononeaccordwcharity.org/Preface_for_NA...

“Translation philosophy
According to the NASB's preface, the translators had a "Fourfold Aim" in this work:

4.They shall give the Lord Jesus Christ His proper place, the place which the Word gives Him; therefore, no work will ever be personalized.”

However, the NASB Translators were eventually outed in 2002.

(2)Steven Byington attended the University of Vermont but only had 1 ½ years of theology and no Hebrew was offered – he was self-taught in languages. There is an interesting article from this web site: http://www.andovertownsman.com/townspeople/x8...

Below is a partial quote:

"Andover Townsman, Andover, MA July 26, 2012 Dalton column: Lawsuit concerns one of town's most interesting yet forgotten

“Steven graduated summa cum laude from the University of Vermont in 1891, and was Phi Beta Kappa. He taught himself Hebrew because the school didn't teach it, and, as time passed, he learned a total of 12 languages.”

(3)Robert Young was self- taught see this partial quote from this web site: http://www.bible-researcher.com/young.html

“Robert Young (1822-1888) was a Scottish editor and publisher who became proficient in several ancient languages through self-study.”

(4)Septuagint – The following is an partial quote from an article from this web site http://www.bible-researcher.com/brenton1.html An Historical Account of the Septuagint Version --by Sir Lancelot Charles Lee Brenton (1807-1862)

“In examining the version itself, it bears manifest proof that it was not executed by Jews of Palestine, but by those of Egypt:— there are words and expressions which plainly denote its Alexandrian origin: this alone would be a sufficient demonstration that the narrative of Aristeas is a mere fiction. It may also be doubted whether in the year 285 B.C. there were Jews in Palestine who had sufficient intercourse with the Greeks to have executed a translation into that language; ….”

All the Best

Dave

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#4004 Dec 10, 2012
Richardnak wrote:
<quoted text>
The many well accepted Protestant and Catholic translations that have followed the NWT by decades, read very much the same as the NWT. They attest to the accuracy and ability of the NWT translators.
I have posted many different verses that show the popular and accepted translations by Protestant translators as following the NWT in thought and many times the exact same wording as the NWT, proves that these earlier translators of the NWT were on the leading edge of translating the Scriptures into modern English.
Why does no one ask for the qualifications and accredited schooling of the NASB translators, that remain aynomonous, or the how about the translators of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures? Why does no one question their qualifications?
"delightful" cites Steven Byington (New Living Translation) as a qualified Greek scholar. Others cite Robert Young,(Young's Literal Translation of the Bible) as an acredited Greek scholar. Yet these men were self taught Greek scholars.
Hi Richardnak

Below I have cited a couple of examples of self-taught people who were very well respected by Scholars.

(1)Prideaux Tregelles was self taught see this partial quote from this web site : http://larryhurtado.files.wordpress.com/2010/...

“ The King James Bible and Biblical Scholarship (The Ethel Wood Lecture, 2011) L. W. Hurtado (University of Edinburgh)
Page 11

But British scholars of the time made their contributions as well to the critical approach to the establishment of the text of the NT, among them perhaps none so remarkable as Samuel Prideaux Tregelles (1813-75). Metzger judged him “the scholar who, at the middle of the nineteenth century was most successful in drawing British preference away from the Textus Receptus,” and Baird referred to him as “the most important British text critic of the day. Tregelles’ scholarly work is all the more extraordinary as he was largely self-taught, his formal education not extending beyond secondary school. While working in an ironworks to provide a livelihood, he taught himself Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic and Welsh, and early on devoted himself to preparing a truly critical edition of the Greek NT.”

(2)William Pierpont co-author with Maurice Robinson of the Bible “The Greek New Testament according to the Byzantine/Majority Textform” was self- taught as noted by this partial quote from this web site: http://rosetta.reltech.org/TC/vol08/Pierpont2...

“ After that time, William Pierpont was mostly self-taught. He learned ancient, biblical, and modern Greek from his father's old textbooks (his law-trained father had mastered Greek as an undergraduate). William also learned Biblical and Rabbinic Hebrew and Aramaic from a local Rabbi. As time passed, he extended his language acquisition expertise to include many European and Asiatic languages. Because of his language skills, at various times he served as an interpreter for foreign visitors to Wichita.”

Although I understand the human nature aspect for wanting to know the Credentials and Qualifications of the NWT Translators.The agreement between the WTS and the NWT Translators is probably a binding agreement, if not legally, it would certainly be morally binding. If the Translators names were released there could be legal repercussions, and if there were no legal consequences, I am sure there would be a lot of Yelling that the WTS cannot be trusted! A catch 22 it seems to me!

All the Best

Dave

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