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Unknown

Adelaide, Australia

#1 Mar 17, 2014
Hi all. I have a few Trinitarian objections that I would like answered. Thanks.

1. It is stated that Jesus possesses two natures, the nature of God and the nature of humanity. It is then stated that Jesus is omniscient in His deity and limited in knowledge in His humanity. My question then is: how is it logically possible for a singular mind to know all things and not know all things?

2. The bible states that God cannot be tempted yet Jesus was tempted. This contradiction needs to be addressed.

3. It is stated that God is immortal yet Jesus died. This contradiction needs to be addressed.

Thanks all.

Since: Aug 09

Bedfordshire, England

#2 Mar 17, 2014
Unknown wrote:
Hi all. I have a few Trinitarian objections that I would like answered. Thanks.
1. It is stated that Jesus possesses two natures, the nature of God and the nature of humanity. It is then stated that Jesus is omniscient in His deity and limited in knowledge in His humanity. My question then is: how is it logically possible for a singular mind to know all things and not know all things?
2. The bible states that God cannot be tempted yet Jesus was tempted. This contradiction needs to be addressed.
3. It is stated that God is immortal yet Jesus died. This contradiction needs to be addressed.
Thanks all.
There are many scriptures that support the trinity idea, and also many that go against it. You can take your pick which one you want to believe
Pat

AOL

#3 Mar 17, 2014
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."--John 1:14

Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil; and might deliver those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in all that He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted." Heb

Jesus had been "made like unto His brethren" in all things mentioned. He had been made flesh and blood. He was "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom. 8:3) but without the sin of sinful flesh. He remained "holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners" (Heb. 7:26). He was "born under the law" (Gal. 4:4), and made subject to its every precept and commandment
BECAUSE JESUS WAS MADE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS OR HUMAN IT MEANT CERTAIN THINGS MUST TAKE PLACE
Jesus was subject to the law he was born under and subject to his father Gal 4;4 and John 5:30
As with any human he had to grow in wisdom and knowledge and he had to grow and become an adult
Luke 2:52
As a man he would not know all things anymore than any man does .
Peter said of Jesus later
He * said to him the third time,“Simon, son of John, do you 1love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him athe third time,“Do you 1love Me?” And he said to Him,“Lord, bYou know all things; You know that I 1love You.” Jesus * said to him,“cTend My sheep.

Jesus THE WORD that was with God and was God came here to die .He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Man needed a Savior THE WORD Jesus became that Savior .

Jesus inherited his God nature from his father his human nature from his mother , he is both man and God .

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#4 Mar 17, 2014
aadriver wrote:
<quoted text>
There are many scriptures that support the trinity idea, and also many that go against it. You can take your pick which one you want to believe
Avoiding the question.

He didn't ask for scriptures that prove the Tri{3}nity, we are all well beyond that, he's asking to have SPECIFIC inherent IMPERFECTIONS in the theory addressed and explained.

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#5 Mar 17, 2014
Pat wrote:
Jesus inherited his God nature from his father his human nature from his mother , he is both man and God.
Why did Jesus inherit from his Father if he has always been eternally God?

Idea's of birth and begetting don't fit with an eternal unchanging God.

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#6 Mar 17, 2014
Pat wrote:
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."--John 1:14
Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil; and might deliver those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in all that He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted." Heb
Jesus had been "made like unto His brethren" in all things mentioned. He had been made flesh and blood. He was "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom. 8:3) but without the sin of sinful flesh. He remained "holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners" (Heb. 7:26). He was "born under the law" (Gal. 4:4), and made subject to its every precept and commandment
BECAUSE JESUS WAS MADE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS OR HUMAN IT MEANT CERTAIN THINGS MUST TAKE PLACE
Jesus was subject to the law he was born under and subject to his father Gal 4;4 and John 5:30
As with any human he had to grow in wisdom and knowledge and he had to grow and become an adult
Luke 2:52
As a man he would not know all things anymore than any man does .
Peter said of Jesus later
He * said to him the third time,“Simon, son of John, do you 1love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him athe third time,“Do you 1love Me?” And he said to Him,“Lord, bYou know all things; You know that I 1love You.” Jesus * said to him,“cTend My sheep.
Jesus THE WORD that was with God and was God came here to die .He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Man needed a Savior THE WORD Jesus became that Savior .
Jesus inherited his God nature from his father his human nature from his mother , he is both man and God .
As I started to read your bad copy-and-paste, I was expecting the author to bring up Php 2:6-8 to show that Jesus gave up being "God" in order to be a man on earth. Then you guys use Php 2:6-8 to show that Jesus was God-Man anyway by playing the "two natures" wild card.

You guys like to spin the same wheel in both directions at the same time, dontcha?

LOL

Pat, your best bet is to answer Unknown's three points directly instead of dodging them with one of your usual snow jobs.

Then as your homerun point include the book, chapter, and verse anyone can turn to in any Bible that explicitly teaches that God is composed of the Trinity.

:)
Pat

AOL

#7 Mar 17, 2014
Boni wrote:
<quoted text>
As I started to read your bad copy-and-paste, I was expecting the author to bring up Php 2:6-8 to show that Jesus gave up being "God" in order to be a man on earth. Then you guys use Php 2:6-8 to show that Jesus was God-Man anyway by playing the "two natures" wild card.
You guys like to spin the same wheel in both directions at the same time, dontcha?
LOL
Pat, your best bet is to answer Unknown's three points directly instead of dodging them with one of your usual snow jobs.
Then as your homerun point include the book, chapter, and verse anyone can turn to in any Bible that explicitly teaches that God is composed of the Trinity.
:)
I answered them just because you don't get it doesn't mean they weren't answered .Nothing anyone says will be good enough for you .It is obvious you are being controled by some evil spirit because nothing you say or do here shows GOD in any form .
You do not understand Phil 2:6-8 just as JW do not understand most of what is in the Bible .God help you is all I can say .It is not my job or anyone's to reveal scriptures to you that is the Holy Spirit's f he can't we sure can't .It is your problem not ours .
Pat

AOL

#8 Mar 17, 2014
Oh and the c/p was scriptures so you can get off the old horse .Anything to divert though right ?
If a c/p though has a good explaination it is there to be used just like you all use things from your mags .You need to remember every idle word will be accounted for and you have a lot of idle words being cocky and rude and mocking God .He will not forget .

Since: Aug 09

Bedfordshire, England

#9 Mar 17, 2014
Matt13weedhacker wrote:
<quoted text>
Avoiding the question.
He didn't ask for scriptures that prove the Tri{3}nity, we are all well beyond that, he's asking to have SPECIFIC inherent IMPERFECTIONS in the theory addressed and explained.
Well if you feel it is a worthwhile exercise why don't you list some imperfections. I have no interest in proving it one way or another. As I said there are many scriptures you can use to support the trinity and many to disprove it.
Dub

Saint Augustine, FL

#10 Mar 17, 2014
Unknown wrote:
Hi all. I have a few Trinitarian objections that I would like answered. Thanks.
1. It is stated that Jesus possesses two natures, the nature of God and the nature of humanity. It is then stated that Jesus is omniscient in His deity and limited in knowledge in His humanity. My question then is: how is it logically possible for a singular mind to know all things and not know all things?
2. The bible states that God cannot be tempted yet Jesus was tempted. This contradiction needs to be addressed.
3. It is stated that God is immortal yet Jesus died. This contradiction needs to be addressed.
Thanks all.
I'll answer your question with a question, since arguing with WBTS's mind set is futile.;)

How can God reconcile ALL things in Heaven and Earth onto HIMSELF ?

It takes the price of a creator's life to redeem a creation onto itself !

Can the life of the first ADAM cleanse the heavenly places and redeem the universe and ALL creation ?!

Hebrews 9:23
It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these
Unknown

Adelaide, Australia

#11 Mar 17, 2014
Pat wrote:
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."--John 1:14
Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil; and might deliver those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in all that He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted." Heb
Jesus had been "made like unto His brethren" in all things mentioned. He had been made flesh and blood. He was "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom. 8:3) but without the sin of sinful flesh. He remained "holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners" (Heb. 7:26). He was "born under the law" (Gal. 4:4), and made subject to its every precept and commandment
BECAUSE JESUS WAS MADE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS OR HUMAN IT MEANT CERTAIN THINGS MUST TAKE PLACE
Jesus was subject to the law he was born under and subject to his father Gal 4;4 and John 5:30
I agree with all of those verses. Though we obviously disagree on how they should be interpreted at times.
Pat wrote:
As with any human he had to grow in wisdom and knowledge and he had to grow and become an adult
Luke 2:52
How can someone who is God grow in wisdom?

Wouldn't we both agree that wisdom is epistemic in nature (of the realm of knowledge)? If we both agree on that point, do you agree that Jesus had 1 mind or 2 minds? If 1 mind, that mind would have to have been the mind of God (omniscient) and hence such a mind cannot grow in wisdom. Unless of course you postulate 2 minds, an omniscient mind and a mind limited in knowledge, in which case the limited mind would grow in wisdom. But you're then stuck with an individual with 2 minds. Could you please address this pat?
Pat wrote:
As a man he would not know all things anymore than any man does .
So Jesus wasn't omniscient?
Pat wrote:
Peter said of Jesus later
He * said to him the third time,“Simon, son of John, do you 1love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him athe third time,“Do you 1love Me?” And he said to Him,“Lord, bYou know all things; You know that I 1love You.” Jesus * said to him,“cTend My sheep.
Context is needed here Pat. You have taken this way out of its context. Peter is not saying that Jesus knows everything in the universe. The Greek word translated “everything” in John 21:17 is "panta", this word always takes into consideration the context. In this instance, the Greek word “panta”, to make better sense in English, would best be translated “all this” or “all these things”, thus:“Lord, you know all these things”, or “Lord, you know all this.”

For scriptural proof of this, notice that the same word “panta” is used in Ephesians 6:21:“But that you also may know my affairs, how I am doing, Tychicus, the beloved brother and faithful servant in the Lord, will make known to you all things [panta, Strong's #3956].” Was Paul saying that Tychicus would make known to the Ephesians absolutely “all things” in the universe? Absolutely not! Again, for this to make better sense in English, the word “panta” would better be understood as “all these things”.
Pat wrote:
Jesus THE WORD that was with God and was God came here to die.
Please address how God can die?
Pat wrote:
Jesus inherited his God nature from his father his human nature from his mother , he is both man and God .
To inherit something means that the person didn't previously possess it.
Unknown

Adelaide, Australia

#12 Mar 17, 2014
Dub wrote:
I'll answer your question with a question, since arguing with WBTS's mind set is futile.;)
I'm not a Witness.
Dub wrote:
How can God reconcile ALL things in Heaven and Earth onto HIMSELF ?
To be honest I don't know what it means by "things in Heaven." I haven't researched it in depth enough to comment on that part. As far as the earth part goes, reconciliation took place by using a man, the Son of God, and reversing what the 1st man Adam had done. Through the first man Adam came sin, which lead to being unrighteous and hence separate from God. Through the 2nd man, Jesus Christ, came righteousness and hence reconciliation. All of this is in Romans 5.
Dub wrote:
It takes the price of a creator's life to redeem a creation onto itself !
No where does scripture say this. It simply took a man to redeem humanity. This man had to live a sinless life, provide a righteousness and die for the sins of the world. This was accomplished by Jesus.
Dub wrote:
Can the life of the first ADAM cleanse the heavenly places and redeem the universe and ALL creation ? Hebrews 9:23
It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these


No. The sacrifice had to be spotless. Adam was not spotless.

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#13 Mar 17, 2014
They had to take accounts written about Jesus, and find someway to make jesus more palatable to greek converts, so they took pagan idea's and intermixed them in manuscripts both Judaic and greek and put the 2 together to form the trinity.

Jesus was not Yaweh in human flesh, Jesus only claimed he came as sort of an ambassador for Yaweh, but that did not make Jesus Yaweh himelf.(oh and Jesus wasn't spotless, he supposedly took on an imperfect human form and according to you all Christians there is no such thing as a perfect human form).

This trinity thing is really easy to debunk.

But now as an outsider looking in, I don't know why Christians and jw's make this a event ending belief, if you believe one way or the other, your screwed. Man you guys make the almighty god look really small and like a scared schoolyard bully.
Pat

AOL

#14 Mar 17, 2014
GOD THE WORD DIED .It was predestined
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

1 Pet 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world ...
The sacrifice of the Lamb was predetermined before anything was created. God had everything planned out before He created anything, meaning, redemption was a vital part of God's plan before He created.

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

This WORD was to become the name Jesus . God's plan before the foundation of the world was that he come here as a man and die for our sin .Jesus set aside the power he held and emptied Himself, taking the form of a bbond-servant, and cbeing made in the likeness of men.

8 Being found in appearance as a man, aHe humbled Himself by becoming bobedient to the point of death, even cdeath 1on a cross.

Jesus said that no one took his life from him that he laid it down .He laid it down as he was predestined to do and he did it willingly .

Jesus THE WORD THAT WAS WITH GOD AND WAS GOD died .The Father did not die , The Holy Spirit did not die .It was the function of THE WORD to die .

In our redemption the Father planned it the THE WORD , Jesus was the sacrifice , the Holy Spirit reveals Christ and the importance of his death for mankind .

God THE WORD died because that is what he was born to do it was all part of God's plan before the foundation of the world .

God predestined Jesus to die for our sins.“...He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world...” to be our sacrifice (1 Pet. 1:20). God saves us,“...not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began”(2 Tim. 1:9). With complete confidence, God placed all salvation in Christ. God was so certain that Jesus would give His life for us that He refers to Jesus as “...the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world”(Rev. 13:8). In God’s mind, it was an absolute fact of the future that Jesus would die for us.

So, when the time came for Him to die, did Jesus have a choice? Yes!“...My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life...No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself...”(Jn. 10:17-18). When the mob came to arrest Jesus, He told Peter,“...Put your sword in its place…Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?”(Matt. 26:52-53). Jesus did not ask for angels to rescue Him. He chose to die because He loved us and loved His Father — which meant obeying His Father. God was able to foreordain the sacrifice of Jesus, because He absolutely foreknew that Jesus would freely choose to obey and give His life for us!

And that is how GOD can die , he chose to .
Unknown

Adelaide, Australia

#15 Mar 17, 2014
Pat wrote:
GOD THE WORD DIED .It was predestined
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
1 Pet 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world ...
The sacrifice of the Lamb was predetermined before anything was created. God had everything planned out before He created anything, meaning, redemption was a vital part of God's plan before He created.
John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
This WORD was to become the name Jesus . God's plan before the foundation of the world was that he come here as a man and die for our sin .Jesus set aside the power he held and emptied Himself, taking the form of a bbond-servant, and cbeing made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, aHe humbled Himself by becoming bobedient to the point of death, even cdeath 1on a cross.
Jesus said that no one took his life from him that he laid it down .He laid it down as he was predestined to do and he did it willingly .
Jesus THE WORD THAT WAS WITH GOD AND WAS GOD died .The Father did not die , The Holy Spirit did not die .It was the function of THE WORD to die .
In our redemption the Father planned it the THE WORD , Jesus was the sacrifice , the Holy Spirit reveals Christ and the importance of his death for mankind .
God THE WORD died because that is what he was born to do it was all part of God's plan before the foundation of the world .
God predestined Jesus to die for our sins.“...He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world...” to be our sacrifice (1 Pet. 1:20). God saves us,“...not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began”(2 Tim. 1:9). With complete confidence, God placed all salvation in Christ. God was so certain that Jesus would give His life for us that He refers to Jesus as “...the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world”(Rev. 13:8). In God’s mind, it was an absolute fact of the future that Jesus would die for us.
So, when the time came for Him to die, did Jesus have a choice? Yes!“...My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life...No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself...”(Jn. 10:17-18). When the mob came to arrest Jesus, He told Peter,“...Put your sword in its place…Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?”(Matt. 26:52-53). Jesus did not ask for angels to rescue Him. He chose to die because He loved us and loved His Father — which meant obeying His Father. God was able to foreordain the sacrifice of Jesus, because He absolutely foreknew that Jesus would freely choose to obey and give His life for us!
And that is how GOD can die , he chose to .
God is immortal and therefore cannot die.
Dub

Saint Augustine, FL

#16 Mar 17, 2014
Unknown wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not a Witness.
<quoted text>
To be honest I don't know what it means by "things in Heaven." I haven't researched it in depth enough to comment on that part. As far as the earth part goes, reconciliation took place by using a man, the Son of God, and reversing what the 1st man Adam had done. Through the first man Adam came sin, which lead to being unrighteous and hence separate from God. Through the 2nd man, Jesus Christ, came righteousness and hence reconciliation. All of this is in Romans 5.
<quoted text>
No where does scripture say this. It simply took a man to redeem humanity. This man had to live a sinless life, provide a righteousness and die for the sins of the world. This was accomplished by Jesus.
<quoted text>
No. The sacrifice had to be spotless. Adam was not spotless.
So are you saying Adam was not spotless before the fall ?

So are you saying Jesus did not redeem are old creation to a new creation ?

A spotless Adam equals one spotless Adam.

The precious blood of the eternal word (the Author of Life) made flesh purchases a New Creation.

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#17 Mar 17, 2014
Unknown wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree with all of those verses. Though we obviously disagree on how they should be interpreted at times.
<quoted text>
How can someone who is God grow in wisdom?...
That's one of the questions I have about that idea, that Jesus was godman, 100% either way together.:-)
Because Jesus had a brain. And in the womb, did Jesus think as a man? As God? Did he even think when he was in the womb? Most of us don't think we thought much if we think about it, when we were in the womb. I truly doubt anyone remembers anything about being in the womb, or for some time thereafter. So when exactly did he become "God" in full form?
Dub

Saint Augustine, FL

#18 Mar 17, 2014
Unknown wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not a Witness.
<quoted text>
To be honest I don't know what it means by "things in Heaven." I haven't researched it in depth enough to comment on that part. As far as the earth part goes, reconciliation took place by using a man, the Son of God, and reversing what the 1st man Adam had done. Through the first man Adam came sin, which lead to being unrighteous and hence separate from God. Through the 2nd man, Jesus Christ, came righteousness and hence reconciliation. All of this is in Romans 5.
<quoted text>
No where does scripture say this. It simply took a man to redeem humanity. This man had to live a sinless life, provide a righteousness and die for the sins of the world. This was accomplished by Jesus.
<quoted text>
No. The sacrifice had to be spotless. Adam was not spotless.
Unknown says he is not a JW...

So you are regarded as an apostate by the WBTS members here, even though you don't believe in the trinity, like I don't accept the trinity creed as defined by Rome.

So what's your motivation to be here ?

“Read God's Word”

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#19 Mar 17, 2014
Pat wrote:
GOD THE WORD DIED .It was predestined...
And that is how GOD can die , he chose to .
Did I just see this correctly? Did you say God died? Or to be more specific, God the second person died while the other two persongods stayed alive?
Pat

AOL

#20 Mar 17, 2014
THE WORD THAT WAS WITH GOD AND WAS GOD who became the man Jesus died .It was planned that way before the foundation of the world unless you do not believe scriptures .
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
In fact it was God the Father that prepared a body for the WORD who became the man Jesus to dwell in and eventually die in Jesus’ Body Was Prepared To Be Our Sacrifice (Hebrews 10:5-7)
“Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. Then I said,‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, O God’”( Hebrews 10:5-7 )

The plan from the foundation of the world was for God to provide redemption for His people. The Bible tells us that Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world ( I Peter 1:20, Revelation 13:8 ).

God planned everything before the foundation of the world including THE WORD becoming flesh and dying .

God can do whatever he wants he is God each member of the Godhead has a function and a purpose it was the function and purpose of THE WORD to become flesh with the purpose of dying.
OH and SCHLEP I didn't say anything I posted what scriptures say but you never read the scriptures we know because you remain n the dark .

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