“Proud Southerner”

Since: May 07

Israel, betach b'HaShem!

#127 Jan 2, 2013
L4ALL wrote:
<quoted text>
Does the current Muslim world mostly ruled by bunch of greedy, power-thirsty puppets, dominated by fanatic mullahs and followed bilndly by ignorant, misled masses give the world much hope? Unfortunately no. Did the real, original Islam presented and practised by the Prophet do so? Most definitely yes.
I'm not talking about leadership, I'm talking about people.

Are people in Muslim countries feeling free to ask question about Islam? Or prophet Muhammad? Are christians free to celebrate Christmas in any Arab country, in anyway they feel like it? Are Dhimmis carefree and not afraid of what Muslims might to do them if they don't wish to be acting all the times by Shariah?

Since: Jul 11

Brampton, Canada

#128 Jan 2, 2013
Lipush wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not talking about leadership, I'm talking about people.
Are people in Muslim countries feeling free to ask question about Islam? Or prophet Muhammad? Are christians free to celebrate Christmas in any Arab country, in anyway they feel like it? Are Dhimmis carefree and not afraid of what Muslims might to do them if they don't wish to be acting all the times by Shariah?
Well I did mention common people too

Anyways regretfully, many of your concerns are correct- at least partially. But if people start to impose and follow their own distorted hallucinations of their belief, that doesn't make the religion bad. As I stated in the above post, as an Ahmadi Muslim I know first hand what persecution is- you wouldn't believe if I tell you about some of my PERSONAL sufferings in a Muslim country. I know this is not the right forum for it, but just mentioning to clarify that don't judge Islam by what is being practised in the Muslim world currently
PATRIOT

San Antonio, TX

#129 Jan 2, 2013
L4ALL wrote:
<quoted text>
I have no clue why do you think I am "Tommy" -honestly, I am not even 100% sure who Tommy is- "Timesten" maybe?(I am only an occasional poster here)- Not that I really care, but just curious.
But I do think that you have started this "discussion" to sway away from the topic
What a lying shame at deflection. You are only an occasional poster here huh? Then how long have you been posting under L4ALL with that big number of Troll Postings on your avatar?

Since: Dec 07

Location hidden

#130 Jan 2, 2013
L4ALL wrote:
<quoted text>
"I don't have a problem with muslimes such as yourself calling us names"
I didn't call you or any non-Muslims any names. If you think I did, I regret it
" I do have a problem with muslimes such as yourself that murder non muslims, that think it's perfectly fine to rape non muslim women, that think it's ok to riot over perceived offenses, and that think they are free to cram thier political ideology down our throats"
I don't know where on earth did you find in my posts that I am that type- FYI, I am an Ahmadi Muslim, who is considered heretic even by majority of "orthodox" Muslims. Its really a pitiful situation- hardline Muslims think we are kafirs and many want to kill us. And even educated non-Muslims like you thwart to sterotype us with the freaking Taliban-brand Islam and repel us. It is not easy, I am telling you- but the very fact that I am still sticking to it is a clear proof of my belief in the truth of Islam and its Prophet.
"You will have to overcome years of brainwashing first. I doubt you have the ability to see truth and decency. Your hypocritical words show that you lack the courage to regard islam as it really is - an evil ideology designed to control people. "
This is the very reason I have started the thread- trying to explain that even many of the Western scholars acknowledge the good in Islam, and admit that at the very least, there was nothing such as any "evil" intention in the mind of its founder. Which indirectly proves that the "brainwashing", if any, is not as much as on part of the Muslims as is on its opponents, who fail to find a single good thing about a religion that has been ever-expanding for 1400 years and is followed by billions- As I already quoted Carlyle, "A greater number of God's creatures believe in Muhammad’s word at this hour, than in any other word whatever. Are we to suppose that it was a miserable piece of spiritual legerdemain, this which so many creatures of the Almighty have lived by and died by??"
You started out this thread with a rant about 'infidels'. It is intended as a derogatory term for non muslims. Therefore, your denial and regret fall flat.

You say that most muslims want to murder you. I'm not surprised, that's part of what I've been saying. That's just how muslims are. If you don't think and believe exactly as they do, they get violent.

You choose to stay a muslim, that's your problem. I choose not to be part of a 'religion'- political ideology - that glorifies the murder of innocents, the enslavement and the oppression of women. I choose to speak out and fight against such evil.

If everyone jumps off a cliff, will you follow them over? Just because 'a lot of people' are doing something doesn't make it right. The mere fact that islam is being discussed in this fashion should open your eyes to the truth. Instead, you will choose to hide your head in the sand, and continue to support your islamic brother and sisters that wish you dead. Sad.

Since: Jul 11

Brampton, Canada

#131 Jan 3, 2013
PATRIOT wrote:
<quoted text>
What a lying shame at deflection. You are only an occasional poster here huh? Then how long have you been posting under L4ALL with that big number of Troll Postings on your avatar?
You are not worth wasting much of time

Anyways 600 odd postings in one-and-half year is definitely not frequent- I have seen trolls such as "Garamba" post 5000+ in a few weeks

“Proud Southerner”

Since: May 07

Israel, betach b'HaShem!

#132 Jan 3, 2013
L4ALL wrote:
<quoted text>
Well I did mention common people too
Anyways regretfully, many of your concerns are correct- at least partially. But if people start to impose and follow their own distorted hallucinations of their belief, that doesn't make the religion bad. As I stated in the above post, as an Ahmadi Muslim I know first hand what persecution is- you wouldn't believe if I tell you about some of my PERSONAL sufferings in a Muslim country. I know this is not the right forum for it, but just mentioning to clarify that don't judge Islam by what is being practised in the Muslim world currently
So Muslims, out of self interest, whould be the first ones to make their voices heard, against bigotry.

“Proud Southerner”

Since: May 07

Israel, betach b'HaShem!

#133 Jan 3, 2013
Ravenclaw wrote:
<quoted text>
You started out this thread with a rant about 'infidels'. It is intended as a derogatory term for non muslims. Therefore, your denial and regret fall flat.
You say that most muslims want to murder you. I'm not surprised, that's part of what I've been saying. That's just how muslims are. If you don't think and believe exactly as they do, they get violent.
You choose to stay a muslim, that's your problem. I choose not to be part of a 'religion'- political ideology - that glorifies the murder of innocents, the enslavement and the oppression of women. I choose to speak out and fight against such evil.
If everyone jumps off a cliff, will you follow them over? Just because 'a lot of people' are doing something doesn't make it right. The mere fact that islam is being discussed in this fashion should open your eyes to the truth. Instead, you will choose to hide your head in the sand, and continue to support your islamic brother and sisters that wish you dead. Sad.
Wow. Brilliant post!

Since: Jul 11

Brampton, Canada

#134 Jan 3, 2013
Ravenclaw wrote:
<quoted text>
You started out this thread with a rant about 'infidels'. It is intended as a derogatory term for non muslims. Therefore, your denial and regret fall flat.
You say that most muslims want to murder you. I'm not surprised, that's part of what I've been saying. That's just how muslims are. If you don't think and believe exactly as they do, they get violent.
You choose to stay a muslim, that's your problem. I choose not to be part of a 'religion'- political ideology - that glorifies the murder of innocents, the enslavement and the oppression of women. I choose to speak out and fight against such evil.
If everyone jumps off a cliff, will you follow them over? Just because 'a lot of people' are doing something doesn't make it right. The mere fact that islam is being discussed in this fashion should open your eyes to the truth. Instead, you will choose to hide your head in the sand, and continue to support your islamic brother and sisters that wish you dead. Sad.
"You started out this thread with a rant about 'infidels'. It is intended as a derogatory term for non muslims. Therefore, your denial and regret fall flat."

As per dictionary.com , Infidel means:

a. a person who does not accept a particular faith, especially Christianity.
b.(in Christian use) an unbeliever, especially a Muslim.
c.(in Muslim use) a person who does not accept the Islamic faith; kaffir.
2. a person who has no religious faith; unbeliever.
3.(loosely) a person who disbelieves or doubts a particular theory, belief, creed, etc.; skeptic.

Doesn't sound "derogatory" to me

"You choose to stay a muslim, that's your problem. I choose not to be part of a 'religion'- political ideology - that glorifies the murder of innocents, the enslavement and the oppression of women. I choose to speak out and fight against such evil."

The fact that I choose to stay a Muslilm is actually a proof of my ardent belief in Islam being the appropriate religion, particularly for this time- Many of the quotes from the non-Muslims above also acknowledge this. The Islam I know and that was brought by Muhammad (P) DOES NOT glorify murder of innocents and DOES NOT enslave and un-necessarily oppress women. That's the true Islam, and I am lucky to follow it being an Ahmadi. Not sure how much you know about it though.

"The mere fact that islam is being discussed in this fashion should open your eyes to the truth"

Islam has been discussed for 14 centuries, this troll forum is nothing to what it has stood against for centuries.

"Instead, you will choose to hide your head in the sand, and continue to support your islamic brother and sisters that wish you dead. Sad."

I don't support them, why would I? In fact I want to raise my own voice against those fanatic hijackers. I am myself a first-hand victim. But if they are not following the true Islam, that doesn't make Islam wrong- although it does put a big blot on its face, something I am trying to clean

Since: Jul 11

Brampton, Canada

#135 Jan 3, 2013
Anyways back to the topic:

Mahatama Gandhi (Young India):

"I wanted to know the best of one who holds today's undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.. I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission."

Since: Jul 11

Brampton, Canada

#136 Jan 3, 2013
Annie Besant (The Life and Teaching of Muhammad):

"It is impossible for anyone who studies the life & character of the great Prophet of Arabia... to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher."

To continue...
george whyte

Lincoln, UK

#137 Jan 3, 2013
lol very good what your trying to do

Infidel is an English language word commonly used to translate the equivalent Arabic language word for non-Muslims; kafir, literally the one who "covers", is usually translated as "disbeliever";

Since: Jul 11

Brampton, Canada

#138 Jan 4, 2013
Lieutenant Gen. Sir John Glubb "The Life & Times of Muhammad":

"It is difficult to deny that the call of Muhammad seems to bear a striking resemblance to innumerable other accounts of similar visions, both in the Old and New Testaments, and in the experience of Christian saints, possibly also of Hindus and devotees of other religions. Such visions, moreover, have often marked the beginnings of lives of great sanctity and of heroic virtue. To attribute such phenomena to self-delusion scarcely seems an adequate explanation, for they have been experienced by many persons divided from one another by thousands of years of time and by thousands of miles of distance, who cannot conceivably have even heard of each other. Yet the accounts which they give of their visions seem to bear an extraordinary likeness to one another. It scarcely appears reasonable to suggest that all these visionaries "imagined" such strikingly similar experiences, although they were quite ignorant of each other's existence.’

Since: Jul 11

Brampton, Canada

#139 Jan 4, 2013
More contemporay: Karen Armstrong in "Muhammad - A Biography of the Prophet" :

‘Muhammad had to start virtually from scratch and work his way towards the radical monotheistic spirituality of his own. When he began his mission, a dispassionate observer would not have given him a chance. The Arabs, he might have objected, were just not ready for monotheism: they were not sufficiently developed for this sophisticated vision. In fact, to attempt to introduce it on a large scale in this violent, terrifying society could be extremely dangerous and Muhammad would be lucky to escape with his life….Indeed, Muhammad was frequently in deadly peril and his survival was a near-miracle. But he did succeed. By the end of his life he had laid an axe to the root of the chronic cycle tribal violence that afflicted the region and paganism was no longer a going concern. The Arabs were ready to embark on a new phase of their history.

...Finally it was the West, not Islam, which forbade the open discussion of religious matters. At the time of the Crusades, Europe seemed obsessed by a craving for intellectual conformity and punished its deviants with a zeal that has been unique in the history of religion. The witch-hunts of the inquisitors and the persecution of Protestants by the Catholics and vice versa were inspired by abstruse theological opinions which in both Judaism and Islam were seen as private and optional matters. Neither Judaism nor Islam share the Christian conception of heresy, which raises human ideas about the divine to an unacceptably high level and almost makes them a form of idolatry.’

Since: Jul 11

Brampton, Canada

#140 Jan 7, 2013
Pringle Kennedy in "Arabian Society at the Time of Muhammad":

"Muhammad was, to use a striking expression, the man of the hour. In order to understand his wonderful success, one must study the conditions of his times. Five and half centuries and more had elapsed when he was born since Jesus had come into the world. At that time, the old religions of Greece and Rome, and of the hundred and one states along the Mediterranean, had lost their vitality. In their place, Caesarism had come as a living cult. The worship of the state as personified by the reigning Caesar, such was the religion of the Roman Empire. Other religions might exist, it was true; but they had to permit this new cult by the side of them and predominant over them. But Caesarism failed to satisfy. The Eastern religions and superstitions (Egyptian, Syrian, Persian) appealed to many in the Roman world and found numerous votaries. The fatal fault of many of these creeds was that in many respects they were so ignoble ...
When Christianity conquered Caesarism at the commencement of the fourth century, it, in its turn, became Caesarised. No longer was it the pure creed which had been taught some three centuries before. It had become largely de spiritualised, ritualised, materialised .......
How, in a few years, all this was changed, how, by 650 AD a great part of this world became a different world from what it had been before, is one of the most remarkable chapters in human history .... This wonderful change followed, if it was not mainly caused by, the life of one man, the Prophet of Mecca ....
Whatever the opinion one may have of this extraordinary man, whether it be that of the devout Muslim who considers him the last and greatest herald of God's word, or of the fanatical Christian of former days, who considered him an emissary of the Evil One, or of certain modern Orientalists, who look on him rather as a politician than a saint, as an organiser of Asia in general and Arabia in particular, against Europe, rather than as a religious reformer; there can be no difference as to the immensity of the effect which his life has had on the history of the world.
To those of us, to whom the man is everything, the milieu but little, he is the supreme instance of what can be done by one man.."

Since: Jul 11

Brampton, Canada

#141 Jan 8, 2013
Stanley Lane-Poole “Studies in a Mosque”:

“One has but to refer to Mohammad’s conduct to the prisoners after the battle of Badr, to his patient tolerance towards his enemies at Medina, his gentleness to his people, his love of children and the dumb creation, and above all, his bloodless entry into Mekka, and the complete amnesty he gave to those who had been his bitter enemies during eighteen years of insult and persecution and finally open war, to show that cruelty was no part of Mohammad’s nature.”

“…A great deal too much has been said about his wives. It is a melancholy spectacle to see professedly Christian biographers gloating over the stories and fables of Mohammad’s domestic relations like the writers and readers of “society” journals. It is, of course, a fact that whilst the Prophet allowed his followers only four wives he took more than a dozen himself; but be it remembered that, with his unlimited power, he need not have restricted himself to a number insignificant compared with some of his successors, that he never divorced one of his wives, that all save one were widows, and that one of these widows was endowed with so terrific a temper that Abu-Bekr and Othman had already politely declined the honour of her alliance before the Prophet married her."

Since: Jul 11

Brampton, Canada

#142 Jan 8, 2013
Cont'd..

“Surely the character of Mohammad has been misjudged. He was not the ambitious schemer some would have him, still less the hypocrite and sham prophet others have imagined. He was an enthusiast in that noblest sense when enthusiasm becomes the salt of the earth, the one thing that keeps men from rotting whilst they live. Enthusiasm is often used despitefully, because it is joined to an unworthy cause, or falls upon barren ground and bears no fruit. So was it not with Mohammad. He was an enthusiast when enthusiasm was the one thing needed to set the world aflame, and his enthusiasm was noble for a noble cause. He was one of those happy few who have attained the supreme joy of making one great truth their very life-spring. He was the messenger of one God, and never to his life’s end did he forget who he was, or the message which was the marrow of his being. He brought his tidings to his people with a good dignity, sprung from the consciousness of his high office, together with a most sweet humility, whose roots lay in the knowledge of his own weakness…no man was ever more thoroughly filled with the sense of his mission or carried out that mission more heroically”
PATRIOT

San Antonio, TX

#143 Jan 8, 2013
L4ALL wrote:
Cont'd..
“Surely the character of Mohammad has been misjudged. He was not the ambitious schemer some would have him, still less the hypocrite and sham prophet others have imagined. He was an enthusiast in that noblest sense when enthusiasm becomes the salt of the earth, the one thing that keeps men from rotting whilst they live. Enthusiasm is often used despitefully, because it is joined to an unworthy cause, or falls upon barren ground and bears no fruit. So was it not with Mohammad. He was an enthusiast when enthusiasm was the one thing needed to set the world aflame, and his enthusiasm was noble for a noble cause. He was one of those happy few who have attained the supreme joy of making one great truth their very life-spring. He was the messenger of one God, and never to his life’s end did he forget who he was, or the message which was the marrow of his being. He brought his tidings to his people with a good dignity, sprung from the consciousness of his high office, together with a most sweet humility, whose roots lay in the knowledge of his own weakness…no man was ever more thoroughly filled with the sense of his mission or carried out that mission more heroically”
Yeah, and General Lew Wallace wrote the book Ben Hur, but Ben Hur did not exist. Good story and one of my favorite movies.

Now to fact-Lew Wallace was the Governor of New Mexico, and his only claim to reality fame was sending Pat Garret after William (Billy the Kid) Bonney.

Your prophet fits in the first "good story" scenario when it comes to your character endorsements by people who never really knew the man.

Since: Jul 11

Brampton, Canada

#144 Jan 8, 2013
PATRIOT wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, and General Lew Wallace wrote the book Ben Hur, but Ben Hur did not exist. Good story and one of my favorite movies.
Now to fact-Lew Wallace was the Governor of New Mexico, and his only claim to reality fame was sending Pat Garret after William (Billy the Kid) Bonney.
Your prophet fits in the first "good story" scenario when it comes to your character endorsements by people who never really knew the man.
Funny that you appear to claim to know more about him than all those writers, mamy of whom actually wrote his biographies (such as Muir and Stanley-Poole)
PATRIOT

San Antonio, TX

#145 Jan 8, 2013
L4ALL wrote:
<quoted text>
Funny that you appear to claim to know more about him than all those writers, mamy of whom actually wrote his biographies (such as Muir and Stanley-Poole)
And those biographers knew him as well as Lew Wallace knew Ben Hur?

Since: Jul 11

Brampton, Canada

#147 Jan 8, 2013
PATRIOT wrote:
<quoted text>
And those biographers knew him as well as Lew Wallace knew Ben Hur?
Was that supposed to be funny?

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