Jesus is not God
bmz

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#1023 May 4, 2013
Seeker wrote:
<quoted text>
Not the earth, the sky.
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/13/2/defau...
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/31/10/defa...
<quoted text>
It doesn't have to. The sky can only be raised ABOVE the earth if the earth was flat rather than being a ball that is surrounded by the sky.
<quoted text>
This is figurative. Everybody knows that you don't see all Kingdoms from a mountain and they knew that back then, so its obviously figurative.
<quoted text>
Yes, I have a real problem with that verse and I'm not even sure if the book of revelation should have even been added to the Bible. But, if one chooses to, they could make the excuse that he was interpreting his wild visions the best way he knew how. But none of that book is written like it is God himself talking to you like the Quran is, it is someone's wild visions who 'supposedly' was inspired by God.

So how come its so easy for you to see a problematic verse in the Bible and yet you are completely blind to all of the problematic verses in the Quran? And what is knocking the Bible supposed to do to defend the Quran?

I'll be back in an hour or so. Think your answers through very carefully.
This is what I call double standards, Seeker.

When it comes to Bible, everything becomes figurative. When it comes to Qur'aan, you guys go literal through English, as if Qur'aan has no figurative and metaphorical language. This is hilarious.

I don't find any verse in Qur'aan problematic, because I understand it in Arabic.

What is good for the Christian goose, is also good for the Muslim gander!
bmz

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#1024 May 4, 2013
Seeker wrote:
13:2 does not say "supported by pillars". It also does not say "raised over the earth".

A simple translation: " Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that you see, and He is firm in power and He made the sun and the moon subservient (to you); each one pursues its course to an appointed time; He regulates the affair, making clear the signs that you may be certain of meeting your Lord.
Polo

London, UK

#1025 May 4, 2013
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
A miracle or two?
Jesus showed more than two. Right? How long did he go? What good were those miracles.
Despite showing miracles, he was not recognized by the people to whom he was sent by God.
Because Jesus(Peace be upon Him) Said

"But when he,the spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you in all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear (from God) that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine and shall show unto you." (John 16:13, 14)

"But now I go my way to Him that sent me and none of you asketh me 'Whither goest thou?' But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and approve righteousness and judgment."

John 16:12-14 -
"I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. How be it when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and he shall show it unto you."

No other prophet glorified Jesus as much as Prophet Muhammad did. The Jews called him an impostor and accused his mother of immorality. They tried to crucify him. Prophet Muhammad considered Jesus as great Prophet and the “Word of God”. The Qura’n attributed to him miracles that are not mentioned in the Bible. Mary is considered the most chaste woman and the best of all women in paradise. Thus did Muhammad really glorify Jesus.

the Gospel of John chapter 14 verses 15, 21, 23 and also in chapter 15 verse 13. You’ll notice that in those two chapters, five times Jesus, may peace and blessings be upon him, repeating over and over again something to the effect ‘If you love me keep my commands,’ showing that he’s not just telling them about the Comforter or prophet to come after him for the sake of academic information or knowledge, but he’s telling them that if you really claim to love me as Christ, then you should follow my commands. When he tells them that this Paraclete will show you all the truth, will testify of him and glorify him, it means that he’s telling them to follow this Paraclete. It’s not just saying to keep this knowledge in your heads and do nothing about it. There’s a moral obligation to follow this Paraclete once you’ve realized that he’s the comforter that Prophet Jesus had foretold.

In the words of the Master himself.
Therefore I say unto you (Jews),The Kingdom of God shall be taken away from you (Jews), and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.(Matt21: 43)
Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth ...(Isaiah 42:10).

A new song may be a reference to a new scripture in a language other than the language of the Israelite scriptures. This interpretation seems consistent with a more explicit mention of someone who will be speaking to people not in Hebrew or Aramaic but in Arabic. The praise of God and His messenger Muhammad (pbuh) is chanted five times daily from the minarets of millions of mosques all over the world.
Seeker

Lowell, MA

#1026 May 4, 2013
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
Whenever I read any Scripture, my thinking cap is always on. I have it on even when I read Qur'aan.
Please put your thinking cap on and read the following:
Even Christian scholars and Bishops agree that many Johns wrote John. John's gospel is heavily forged.[/QUOTE[

I'm not sure that they said it was heavily forged, You are adding something, just like you added 'as if' to 69:16. So far, you are adding things and being less then honest.

[QUOTE who="bmz"]<quoted text>
In John 10:32, Jesus had already said to them,“I have shown you many good works from the Father."
Here, it is quite obvious that he did not claim to be the Father or God.
You even said he never claimed to be the Son of God, and it's all in writing.
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
In john 10:33, a very absurd reason for stoning was constructed: "We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied,“but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
How do you know that was constructed? You didn't explain.
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
The rest of John 10:34-39 is a fabrication, because it does not make any sense,
Not to you I suppose, but then again you are the same person who knows what Jesus or God would do and you even wrote the correct things God or Jesus SHOULD say. So I guess that God is supposed to think just like you.
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
specially, when the man had always kept God or the Father extremely high above himself.
Well I explained what I think about this, but you must have missed it. I'll go back and reference the post number that you must have missed if you would like.
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
Now to your comment:
"What you don't understand is that just because someone claims something, doesn't mean anybody is going to believe it, so what would be the point?
One can't validate himself because that is looked upon as self serving and Jesus knew that. It's up to others to validate you.
When they asked him if he was the Son of God, that's why he said, you say it is so. If he said it and people didn't want to believe it and looked at it as a self serving lie, then what would be the point of bothering to say it?"
He did not say, "You say it is so".
What exactly did he say?
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
He clearly meant that those words came from them, not him. Or, they were the ones, who came up with that and he never said anything like that. What he meant was, "Those are your words, not mine!" Anyway, what was the end result, looking at your reasoning? Still no one believed him.
Well then you didn't understand anything that I said about self validation. It completely flew over your head. I would be more than happy to explain again if you need. But something tells me that this will take a while because you seem to have no education in logic and philosophy. You should have understood it in the first place, but that's okay.
Seeker

Lowell, MA

#1027 May 4, 2013
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
13:2 does not say "supported by pillars". It also does not say "raised over the earth".
A simple translation: " Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that you see,[/QUOTER]

Why would pillars even be mentioned in the first place? It doesn't say without pillars, it says without pillars that you can see. It could have easily said without pillars, but it adds the extra part of pillars that you cannot see. But again, why woulds pillars even be mentioned at all?

[QUOTE who="bmz"]<quoted text>
and He is firm in power and He made the sun and the moon subservient (to you); each one pursues its course to an appointed time; He regulates the affair, making clear the signs that you may be certain of meeting your Lord.
Well I have plenty of comments to make about that, but first things first. I'll stick to the issue at hand and then talk about those other embarrassments later. I have much to say about that as well.
Polo

London, UK

#1028 May 4, 2013
Eric wrote:
<quoted text> Do you find Christians blowing people up? Do you find them killing each other for their beliefs? Jesus told us to "Love your enemies do good to them that despitefully use you...
No Christians Do Not Blow themselves But They Drop 1000Tons Of Bombs From The Air I Know They Do A better Job Than The Suicide Bomber. Sucide Bomber Kills 1Or2 But Them They Will Kill 50 to 200 At A Time

The Same Way The God Of Moses And Jesus Were Ordered To Kill So The Same Way The God Of Muhammad Ordered Him To Do The Same But Him He Did Not Those Who Did not Fight Him
Seeker

Lowell, MA

#1029 May 4, 2013
Polo wrote:
<quoted text>
Because Jesus(Peace be upon Him) Said
"But when he,the spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you in all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear (from God) that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine and shall show unto you." (John 16:13, 14)
Why are you ignoring what I posted to you? Are you waiting for BMZ to answer this for you? Don't you have your own ideas?
Eric

Bell, CA

#1030 May 4, 2013
Polo wrote:
<quoted text>
We Muslims We Know Your Bible Inside Out Can you say the Same? No
All That You Know Is I And My Father Are One" That all You know
"By Their Fruits You Shall Know Them".Remember
I Told You You are an Empty Drum
Pardon a dumb Christian why do you use our Bible if its so "stupid?" Do you know this passage? Isaiah 53:1-12 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Was the prophet Isaiah speaking of himself or someone else?
Eric

Bell, CA

#1031 May 4, 2013
Seeker wrote:
<quoted text>
Who said that's OK? I don't believe that God wrote that. I think the story of Job is just that, a parable like story. But the Quran is supposed to be the perfect letter for letter dictation of the creator of the universe, so one error, just one, and the entire thing collapses as the fraud that it really is. You can't fix the hole in your boat by trying to poke a hole in another boat.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness... so this story of Job is just a parable what about Jonah? Noah? Esther? David and Goliath?
Eric

Bell, CA

#1032 May 4, 2013
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes.
And one more:
Did Jesus say, "I am the Father"?
Have you heard of the Trinity?
Eric

Bell, CA

#1033 May 4, 2013
Polo wrote:
<quoted text>
That's Very True What else would we expect a prophet of God to say except "I am the 'way' to God's mercy"? That is his job. That is what a prophet does. It is why God chose him in the first place; in order to guide to the mercy of God. This is indeed confirmed in John 10:9 where Jesus tells us that he is "the door" to "the pasture." In other words, he is the "prophet" who guides his people to "heaven" (see also Jn. 12:44). Once again, this is the message of Islam.
During The Time Of Moses He was the way, the truth, and the life: Same For Noah, Abraham Muhammad (peace Be on All Of Them)
Finally, remember
"Not every one that says to me(Jesus); 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father, who is in heaven."
Seek The Truth The Truth Shall Free You.
Except for the fact that he said "I am the way"
Eric

Bell, CA

#1034 May 4, 2013
Show me a prophet who said that.
Eric

Bell, CA

#1035 May 4, 2013
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
Whenever I read any Scripture, my thinking cap is always on. I have it on even when I read Qur'aan.
Please put your thinking cap on and read the following:
Even Christian scholars and Bishops agree that many Johns wrote John. John's gospel is heavily forged.
In John 10:32, Jesus had already said to them,“I have shown you many good works from the Father."
Here, it is quite obvious that he did not claim to be the Father or God.
In john 10:33, a very absurd reason for stoning was constructed: "We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied,“but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
The rest of John 10:34-39 is a fabrication, because it does not make any sense, specially, when the man had always kept God or the Father extremely high above himself.
Now to your comment:
"What you don't understand is that just because someone claims something, doesn't mean anybody is going to believe it, so what would be the point?
One can't validate himself because that is looked upon as self serving and Jesus knew that. It's up to others to validate you.
When they asked him if he was the Son of God, that's why he said, you say it is so. If he said it and people didn't want to believe it and looked at it as a self serving lie, then what would be the point of bothering to say it?"
He did not say, "You say it is so". He clearly meant that those words came from them, not him. Or, they were the ones, who came up with that and he never said anything like that.
What he meant was, "Those are your words, not mine!"
Anyway, what was the end result, looking at your reasoning? Still no one believed him.
Would you have believed Muhammad if he said he was Allah?
Polo

London, UK

#1036 May 4, 2013
Seeker wrote:
<quoted text>
Also, don't forget about 67:5 that says the stars decorate the sky. that will take away your ozone excuse assuming you even think about it. also, don't forget about the sky being raised above the earth and is held up by pillars that we cannot see. Held UP? There is no up or down, the earth is surround by the sky. But pillars hold things UP.
The only way these verses makes sense is if we realize that the author thought the earth was a flat floor with a roof ABOVE it that has tiny little lights decorating it and will one day be weak and crack open. And that's EXACTLY what 7th century Bedouin Arabs mistakenly believed. And so did Muhammad because that's who created those verses.
Funny how when you read the Bible, you put your thinking cap on, but when you read the Quran, you throw your thinking cap away and the Quran gets a free pass.
My Dear Seekers
Please This Is To Remind You That You Have Made a mistake It Is The Bible Which Said The Sky Got Pillars. Not The Quran
1.Regarding ‘the Heavens’, the Bible says in Job, Ch. 26, Verse 11, that…‘The pillars of the Heaven will tremble.’

2.Not only do the Heavens have got pillars - Bible says in the first book of Samuel, Ch. No.2 Verses No.8, as well as the book of Job Ch. No.9, Verse No.6, and the book of Psalms Ch. No.75, Verse

No.3, that…‘Even the earth have got pillars.’

What The Quran Says:-Qur’an says in Surah Luqman, Ch. 31, Verse No.10, that…‘The Heavens are without any pillars - Don`t you see? Don’t you see the Heavens are without any pillars?-

Bible says heaven have got pillars.The Bible Also Tells You That The Earth Is Flat

The Bible Also Tells You

3.In the field of medicine, the Bible says in the book of Leveticus, Ch. No.14, Verse No.49 to 53 - it gives a novel way for disinfecting a house from plague of leprosy… disinfecting a house from plague of leprosy. It says that…‘Take two birds, kill one bird, take wood, scale it - and the other living bird, dip it in water… and under running water - later on sprinkle the house 7 times with it. Sprinkle the house with blood to disinfect against plague of leprosy? You know blood is a good media of germs, bacteria, as well as toxin – lets hope Our Doctors does not use this method of disinfecting the the operation theatre.

4.Leviticus, Ch. No.12 Verse No.1 to 5, says that…‘After a woman gives birth to a male child, she will be unclean for 7 days, and the period of uncleanliness will continue for 33 days more.
If she gives birth to a female child, she will be unclean for two weeks, and the period of uncleanliness will continue for 66 days.
In short, if a woman gives birth to a male child…‘a son’, she is unclean for 40 days. If she gives birth to a female child…‘a daughter’, she is unclean for 80 days. I would like Youl to explain to us scientifically, how come a woman remains unclean for double the period, if she gives birth to a female child, as compared to a male child.
Please Read Your Bible With Understanding And Remember There Are Hundreds More Like These In The Bible.

Allah Says Chapter 4Verse 82
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah,they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

“And this Qur’an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the Revelation). Which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah) and the Injil (Gospel)and a full explanation of the Book (i.e., laws decreed for mankind)---from the Lord of the Worlds”.(Qur’an 10:37)

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam,it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.”(Qur’an 3:85)
Eric

Bell, CA

#1037 May 4, 2013
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
Bull Shit and a lie.
Let us see the distortion first:
"Luke 22:70 New King James Version (NKJV)
70 Then they all said,“Are You then the Son of God?”
So He said to them,“You rightly say that I am.” "
Now read this:
"Luke 22:70
Darby Translation (DARBY)
70 And they all said,*Thou* then art the Son of God? And he said to them,*Ye* say that I am.
Luke 22:70 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
70 Then said they all: Art thou then the Son of God? Who said: You say that I am."
See the fraud and forgery!
Jesus clearly said that that were the ones, who said.
By the way, no Jew would have asked him, "Are you the son of God?"
This is just the way that these gospels were constructed and written long, long after Jesus was gone.
That is What Jesus said stop trying to explain it away
Polo

London, UK

#1038 May 4, 2013
Seeker wrote:
<quoted text>
Who says so? Muhammad? Why is Muhammad right? Because the book he is reciting himself says so. Why is the book right? Because Muhammad says so. Why is Muhammad right? Because the book he is reciting says so. Why is that book right? Because Muhammad says so. This is noting but a logical circle of self validation which is called a logical fallacy.
Why am I Napolean? Because this book I'm creating says so. Why is that book right? Because I say so.
Why is this contract you are reading fair? Because I wrote it. Would that be a good enough explanation for you or would you be a little suspicious of me?
Perhaps a miracle or two from him could have gone a long way.
All You Have To Do Is To Prove Him Wrong Saying He Is Wrong Does Not Prove Anything?
You Can't Say Somebody Is Wrong
You Do Not Know Why He Is Wrong
The Quran Says Produce Your Proof If You Are Truthful.
When You Received Any Information you must verify it for yourself Before You Passed To A Third Party.
Seeker

Lowell, MA

#1039 May 4, 2013
Eric wrote:
<quoted text> 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness... so this story of Job is just a parable what about Jonah? Noah? Esther? David and Goliath?
That was Timothy, not a a loner guy who came later who wrote revelation with some very strange visions. If you think otherwise, then you can join the discussion and explain how the stars are supposed to "fall" like figs fall off of a tree.
Seeker

Lowell, MA

#1040 May 4, 2013
Polo wrote:
<quoted text>
All You Have To Do Is To Prove Him Wrong Saying He Is Wrong Does Not Prove Anything?
Well I don't think that the creator of the universe would have the same misunderstandings of the cosmos that 7th century Bedouin Arabs had. What more proof do you need?
Seeker

Lowell, MA

#1041 May 4, 2013
Polo wrote:
<quoted text>
My Dear Seekers
Please This Is To Remind You That You Have Made a mistake It Is The Bible Which Said The Sky Got Pillars. Not The Quran
Did you actually bother to read the links to the verses from the Quran that I provided that had 20 or more translations of these two verses that talk about the sky having supports or pillars that we cannot see holding it up? Would you please at least read before you post? Thank you. Why would any mistake in the Bible make the Quran any less mistaken? Who taught you how to reason?
Seeker

Lowell, MA

#1042 May 4, 2013
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
13:2 does not say "supported by pillars". It also does not say "raised over the earth".
A simple translation: " Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that you see, and He is firm in power and He made the sun and the moon subservient (to you); each one pursues its course to an appointed time; He regulates the affair, making clear the signs that you may be certain of meeting your Lord.
What do pillars do? They hold things up, right? Why are pillars even mentioned? Would you even utter that word today when speaking of the sky even if you said we can't see them? Wouldn't people look at you like you were nuts? But I can assure you, that people in the 7th century saw no problems at all with this, and neither did Muhammad while he was creating these verses.

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