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No Muslim can think of profaning holy...

# No Muslim can think of profaning holy Prophet (PBUH): Altaf

There are 54753 comments on the Daily Times story from Jan 11, 2011, titled No Muslim can think of profaning holy Prophet (PBUH): Altaf. In it, Daily Times reports that:

'Even minorities living in Pakistan cannot blaspheme against the holy Prophet , hence I appeal to religious leaders of every shade of religious persuasion to stop their demonstrations after clear assurances from Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani that no amendment is being made in the blasphemy law,' Altaf said while talking to an assembly of MQM ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Daily Times.

Vedic Rationalist

New Delhi, India

#48565 Sep 30, 2013
Dragnet52 wrote:
<quoted text>
1)This is an inappropriate analogy. In a classroom a maths student is well aware about the mechanism of proof. He is led through a series of steps (logical deduction or induction) where each succeeding step is seen as the natural progression of the preceding one. In other words, there is an implicit assumption on the part of the teacher that the student is well acquainted with mathematical truths to correctly appreciate the logical inference drawn from each succeeding step. This is why theorems and proofs are not taught to nursery kids.
Calculus is not taught before arithmetic, and numbers are taught before arithmetic. That is just going step by step, ie not skipping steps. If some child is smarter, he can do it faster, but still can't skip the steps. Trying to skip the steps (of logic), as we humans understand them, is an exercise in the irrational.

But logic of induction can be taught in younger classes, as it does not require any perquisite knowledge as such. Just the IQ of the student should be sufficient. You cant teach a dog induction for instance.
My question to you now is, what is your understanding about the mechanism of proof as far as spirituality is concerned? What is your understanding of spiritual truths which can then help me to sketch out a perfectly logical explanation? The ball is in your court now.
No understanding what so ever of "spirituality". Have no idea what you mean by it. Is it pertaining to spirits? Ambiguous word, used differently in different contexts by different ppl.[Some mean psychological well being by it.]

So also no "understanding-about-the- mechanism-of-proof-as-far-as spirituality-is-concerned " either. Such language makes no sense.

Top spin drive right back at you. Or maybe a little placement down the line.
2)You are dripping with sarcasm, maybe the effect of your neti neti practice.
It is not something one needs to practice, you understand it once. Remember the concept, then move on. Like you understood why water freezes when temperature drops less than 0 deg C, that is it, you don't need to practice the logic again and again. Unless you're preping for an exam. Just need to understand once. If you cant do neti neti easily as you got ADD, then maybe you need to practice till you get the resultant realization. Once you got that, its done. Apply elimination to other things, or not.
<--
Problem: You got a physical balance (but no weights), and Nine coins. One coin is fake, and lighter. Locate/identify the fake coin in least no of uses of the balance.(Hint: can be done in 2 tries)
-->
As for instruction manual for higher experiences, it can be described in two words and that is "self discipline." It's a vast subject but aspiration, self surrender, self reflection, meditation should suffice for now, that is if you are really interested.
Hmmm, should suffice? Should it?

Dude! you know you need to go learn how to write better manual, when even the Chinese are doing a better job than you.
And then what is this obsession with instruction manuals? Do you mean to say that having an instruction manual is the only thing that is necessary to legitimize or lend credibility to spiritual practice. It seems you are very naive, if not deliberately mischievous.
Not credibility. When you tell people of a new place to go visit, they will ask you where it is, how to reach there, how did you get there.

If you cant tell them, or give them generic answers, like "Oh just buy plane tickets, pack suitcase, board a plane, then collect luggage, take a taxi, ask for a nice hotel...". And then top it off with - "that should suffice for now!, you'll reach there!"
.
You shoulda added- "You'll only know when you get there if you are there or not"

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#48566 Sep 30, 2013
Vedic Rationalist wrote:
<quoted text>
Muslims belief in afterlife and day of judgement. So do all believing muslims kill themselves, and experience the real thing, before they believe?
NO. They just believe, take it on faith. Cause someone told them so. The credibility of afterlife for them is out of their trust in mohammad, and those who wrote Quran, hoping it is accurate with mohammad.
If someone took you on faith, and just believed all you are saying is truth, and that you are not lying, or were not hallucinating,- then that is a start of a religion with you as its progenitor-prophet. You provide support. logical, evidence, show repeatablity, and you got a new subject for science.
You are deliberately trying to mislead people over here. Don't fudge the issue by omitting the "direct experience" part of my post. A direct experience is the ultimate validation for any claim that is made in the religious sphere. But of course, you should invest a certain degree of faith, a certain belief in the honesty of the person who makes the claim when you are starting on the path. But ultimately it is direct experience that matters. If not, then word gets out quickly that the claim was a fraudulent one, because there will never be a lack of people who are willing to test the veracity of those claims.

As far as Muslims are concerned, yes, you are right. That is why I told that their belief is not a luminous belief as opposed to a dark one. In their case, neither their belief proceeds from having a direct experience first, nor proceeds on the promise of having a direct experience later on. A luminous belief is that which elevates you, ennobles you because there is this inner conviction that your spiritual practice will receive its ultimate stamp of approval on the basis of direct experience and not blind belief.
Vedic Rationalist

New Delhi, India

#48567 Sep 30, 2013
Dragnet52 wrote:
<quoted text>
3), 4), 5)Now you purport to know the finer details of my experience. Maybe it was the sixth sense working in you. Don't worry, I'm not going to ask a logical explanation from you on how you came to know about the finer details of my experience.
I can only go from what you describe. You have had a lot super experiences from neti neti, but none of that is the intentioned result of the actual procedure. I do not refute your experiences, nor confirm them, just they are at best a by product. Just sitting down quietly can be a good experience. Did you sit down quietly while doing neti neti?
I agree that the experience of pure self detached from the workings of nature can be a powerful life transforming experience for some people.
Nothing to do with neti neti tho, just to be clear. May be your experience, side effects...
In my case I needed a more fulfilling experience and that is when I realized that my own efforts will not be sufficient. If someone thinks that his own efforts alone are sufficient, then he is only strengthening his knots of his ego.
You have a guru?
6) Jargon or no jargon, negationist means negationist. It's as simple as that. Why do you show undue haste to judge something as jargon? You are not a small kid who needs to be spoonfed a simple, liquid diet. It is assumed that you have the necessary sophistication to decipher the meaning from those cryptic jargon. Or is this a deliberate ploy on your part to hinder my freedom of expression, my space for articulation. Perhaps you would like me to dumb down by holding this Damocles sword of jargon over my head. But sorry, I cannot oblige you on this front.
No ploy, explain clearly, or they are jargon to me. Relax, maybe I am the one who is dumb. I am stuck, limited to the rational remember!
Vedic Rationalist

New Delhi, India

#48568 Sep 30, 2013
Dragnet52 wrote:
<quoted text>A negationist is someone who denies or refute something. Though you may say that the neti neti principle is all about elimination, filtration or distillation or whatever your kind of jargon is, there is another side to this story. Elimination from the neti neti perspective means denying the reality of oneness, the oneness of self and nature. Self and nature are considered as two eternally opposing poles that can never meet or be united. Hence a person practicing the neti neti principle is a negationist from a different standpoint because he refutes the ultimate unity of things.
Na Iti Na Iti, is a technique to locate self physically. Simple. No refuting anything, no filtration, not distillation, no perspective, no denying anything oneness twoness...

I did give it to you, Where is all this coming from? I tnink someone has really messed you up.

You are just scared out of your wits by the neti neti monster, as you rather like the number ONE, you found happiness in the idea of oneness, and someone told you neti neti is something the dispassionate dualists do, so it will be like a sword to your happy world of oneness and slash it into two. Then you'll lose your happy religion and become a cold eyed emotionless dualist (whatever that is (winK)), devoid of all happiness and kindness and love and ...

Fear is ignorance is more fear is more ignorance is ...
harminder

Mumbai, India

#48569 Sep 30, 2013
Vedic Rationalist wrote:
<quoted text>
So if there is video evidence of rape, but no 4 muslims, the woman still goes to jail under sharia law!
So now a bad muslim man can easily rape ALL THE WOMEN he wants in a roomful of people; if all the male witnesses present are christians, hindus buddhists...and sharia law will only punish the woman if they complained?
Gala time for the Sheiks of Saud, in an Expat's party!
exactly

thats what happens to maids from sri lanka, phillipines in saudi arabia.

after being gang raped by a pious muslim saudi grandfather, then the pious muslim father and then the pious muslim boys.they are literally thrown to the dogs as there are NO WITNESSES

allah hu akbar

saudis call maids fck lady  in english
harminder

Mumbai, India

#48571 Sep 30, 2013
Vedic Rationalist wrote:
Such individuals came from varied backgrounds - from Bhagat Singh, who embraced Marxist ideas and wrote the famous pamphlet Why I am an Atheist to Jawaharlal Nehru, E.V.Ramasami and Nobel laureate Subramaniam Chandrasekar, the astrophysicist.
The Veda also refer to a trend of thinking called the svabhava-vada, which is naturalism. This philosophy tries to understand reality by natural causes, refusing to accept, supernatural intervention in what exists.
Perhaps as a result of the strong philosophical tradition thus set up, where people freely and boldly speculate on fundamental questions of existence, consciousness, creation and human practice, there evolved different streams of thought coalescing into distinct schools of philosophy. Between them, the covered all the variations of deductions that humans can make in trying to understand reality.
There were six astika (orthodox) schools upholding the Vedas. Advaita was committed to the primacy of a single supreme being, and concluded that matter is mere expression of it. The Dvaita school tried to argue that both matter and spirit were real and coexisted. But Vaisheshika, a philosophical school said to have been formulated by the rishi Kanaada, held that matter was made up of atoms. Saankhya, another school which was founded by the rishi Kapila, too adopted a materialist method of exposition, although it had a dualistic philosophy, relying on purusha (self) and prakriti (nature) as the two elements of reality.
Bhagat Singh grew his KESH again in the lahore jail and became a baptised sikh. He used to recite the nitnem a full six months before he was hanged. When he was hanged he had that Sikh Top Knot.(Jooda)

He did experience the divine again and again before he died.
Vedic Rationalist

New Delhi, India

#48572 Sep 30, 2013
Dragnet52 wrote:
<quoted text>You are deliberately trying to mislead people over here. Don't fudge the issue by omitting the "direct experience" part of my post.
Yeah no one can counter any one else' personal (direct) experience. I can't get inside you mind, that too going back in time. So when mohammad made up his direct experience, other ppl coudn't counter by logic. Believe mo or disbelieve mo, in which case he will attack.

Anyway you are the one who linked it with religion, and Islam is as religion as you can get.
A direct experience is the ultimate validation for any claim that is made in the religious sphere. But of course, you should invest a certain degree of faith, a certain belief in the honesty of the person who makes the claim when you are starting on the path. But ultimately it is direct experience that matters. If not, then word gets out quickly that the claim was a fraudulent one, because there will never be a lack of people who are willing to test the veracity of those claims.
I think indoctrination is a very religious direct experience. There are billions of ppl following one religion and billions of others refuting it at anytime. Does not stop most from practicing there brand of hocus-pocus.
As far as Muslims are concerned, yes, you are right. That is why I told that their belief is not a luminous belief as opposed to a dark one. In their case, neither their belief proceeds from having a direct experience first, nor proceeds on the promise of having a direct experience later on. A luminous belief is that which elevates you, ennobles you because there is this inner conviction that your spiritual practice will receive its ultimate stamp of approval on the basis of direct experience and not blind belief.
Yeah let us all non muslims unite and stick to them muslims.
Vedic Rationalist

New Delhi, India

#48573 Sep 30, 2013
harminder wrote:
<quoted text>
Bhagat Singh grew his KESH again in the lahore jail and became a baptised sikh. He used to recite the nitnem a full six months before he was hanged. When he was hanged he had that Sikh Top Knot.(Jooda)
He did experience the divine again and again before he died.
Saddam too became muslim, saw divine just before he got killed. I am guessing the english/americans/anglos have this effect on people?

Mo was so much better, once they converted, he let em live, as long as they remained loyal muslims

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#48574 Sep 30, 2013
Vedic Rationalist wrote:
<quoted text>
Calculus is not taught before arithmetic, and numbers are taught before arithmetic. That is just going step by step, ie not skipping steps. If some child is smarter, he can do it faster, but still can't skip the steps. Trying to skip the steps (of logic), as we humans understand them, is an exercise in the irrational.
But logic of induction can be taught in younger classes, as it does not require any perquisite knowledge as such. Just the IQ of the student should be sufficient. You cant teach a dog induction for instance.
<quoted text>
No understanding what so ever of "spirituality". Have no idea what you mean by it. Is it pertaining to spirits? Ambiguous word, used differently in different contexts by different ppl.[Some mean psychological well being by it.]
So also no "understanding-about-the- mechanism-of-proof-as-far-as spirituality-is-concerned " either. Such language makes no sense.
Top spin drive right back at you. Or maybe a little placement down the line.
<quoted text>
It is not something one needs to practice, you understand it once. Remember the concept, then move on. Like you understood why water freezes when temperature drops less than 0 deg C, that is it, you don't need to practice the logic again and again. Unless you're preping for an exam. Just need to understand once. If you cant do neti neti easily as you got ADD, then maybe you need to practice till you get the resultant realization. Once you got that, its done. Apply elimination to other things, or not.
<--
Problem: You got a physical balance (but no weights), and Nine coins. One coin is fake, and lighter. Locate/identify the fake coin in least no of uses of the balance.(Hint: can be done in 2 tries)
-->
<quoted text>
Hmmm, should suffice? Should it?
Dude! you know you need to go learn how to write better manual, when even the Chinese are doing a better job than you.
<quoted text>
Not credibility. When you tell people of a new place to go visit, they will ask you where it is, how to reach there, how did you get there.
If you cant tell them, or give them generic answers, like "Oh just buy plane tickets, pack suitcase, board a plane, then collect luggage, take a taxi, ask for a nice hotel...". And then top it off with - "that should suffice for now!, you'll reach there!"
.
You shoulda added- "You'll only know when you get there if you are there or not"
As you know, MUQ is hovering around this forum and he may come anytime to grandly pronounce the verdict that we are having endless, purposeless discussions. So I would just like to elucidate on just two points.

Before starting, I would like to introduce you to a favorite jargon of mine called "truth quotient" something on the lines of intelligence quotient. Ultimately what matters is not the absence or presence of logic, reason or belief but the presence of truth.

Why do we trust logic? Why do we think that logic has truth quotient? What is the light within us which perceives the truth quotient in logic? Why do we have this feeling that logic can never deceive us? It is this light within us that we have to discover in its purity.

Appreciating logic is not much different from appreciating a soul stirring piece of music or the aesthetic appreciation of a beautiful painting. There is a certain order, rhythm, harmony, symmetry that is perceived in all these different experiences.

Now coming to spirituality. I can perceive a mischievous glint in your eyes when you ask whether spirituality is something that pertains to spirits or not. You know better than that, so I will not say anything further on this.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#48575 Sep 30, 2013
Vedic Rationalist wrote:
<quoted text>
I can only go from what you describe. You have had a lot super experiences from neti neti, but none of that is the intentioned result of the actual procedure. I do not refute your experiences, nor confirm them, just they are at best a by product. Just sitting down quietly can be a good experience. Did you sit down quietly while doing neti neti?
<quoted text>
Nothing to do with neti neti tho, just to be clear. May be your experience, side effects...
<quoted text>
You have a guru?
<quoted text>
No ploy, explain clearly, or they are jargon to me. Relax, maybe I am the one who is dumb. I am stuck, limited to the rational remember!
No, I don't have a guru. I'm completely self taught. I rely on my gut instincts in these matters. In any case, a genuine guru is hard to come by nowadays. It seems the golden age of gurus is over.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#48576 Sep 30, 2013
Vedic Rationalist wrote:
<quoted text>
Na Iti Na Iti, is a technique to locate self physically. Simple. No refuting anything, no filtration, not distillation, no perspective, no denying anything oneness twoness...
I did give it to you, Where is all this coming from? I tnink someone has really messed you up.
You are just scared out of your wits by the neti neti monster, as you rather like the number ONE, you found happiness in the idea of oneness, and someone told you neti neti is something the dispassionate dualists do, so it will be like a sword to your happy world of oneness and slash it into two. Then you'll lose your happy religion and become a cold eyed emotionless dualist (whatever that is (winK)), devoid of all happiness and kindness and love and ...
Fear is ignorance is more fear is more ignorance is ...
I will reserve my judgement on this.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#48577 Sep 30, 2013
Vedic Rationalist wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah no one can counter any one else' personal (direct) experience. I can't get inside you mind, that too going back in time. So when mohammad made up his direct experience, other ppl coudn't counter by logic. Believe mo or disbelieve mo, in which case he will attack.
Anyway you are the one who linked it with religion, and Islam is as religion as you can get.
<quoted text>
I think indoctrination is a very religious direct experience. There are billions of ppl following one religion and billions of others refuting it at anytime. Does not stop most from practicing there brand of hocus-pocus.
<quoted text>
Yeah let us all non muslims unite and stick to them muslims.
I was talking of direct experience in this life itself. I believe in the doctrine of accountability. Accountability should be fixed irrespective of whether we are dealing with spiritual or temporal matters. No one should make a fraudulent claim and get away with it.

As far as Mohammad was concerned, perhaps he knew that he will not have a fig leaf to cover himself if someone decided to take him to task on his claims. Hence all that talk about after life.

Since: May 12

#48578 Sep 30, 2013
Neville Thompson wrote:
<quoted text>
How pretty ?
..Crocodile Dundee ...Pretty...!
atheist

Maidenhead, UK

#48579 Sep 30, 2013
Shias say that Sunnis are apostates, & Sunnis say that Shias are heretics.
So WHO is correct?
harminder

Mumbai, India

#48580 Sep 30, 2013
Vedic Rationalist wrote:
<quoted text>
Saddam too became muslim, saw divine just before he got killed. I am guessing the english/americans/anglos have this effect on people?
Mo was so much better, once they converted, he let em live, as long as they remained loyal muslims
as per information , Saddam never ever recited prayers in prison. He was arrogant and obnoxious to the end. He even lunged with hate at the hangman who chanted Ya Moqtada Ya Moqtada  as he tied the noose around his neck.
MUQ

Lucknow, India

#48581 Oct 1, 2013
There is a saying in our Hindi / Urdu vernacular "Chor ke darhi me tinka"...

i.e. the Guilty party has a guilty conscience all the time.

see how much our Couch Philospher and KUTARK rationalist are "aware" of my Non-present Presence!!

Why else should I comment on post to post basis.

What I know, is that after 1000 posts, they would be exactly at the same point from where they started.

They are just moving in circles, their arguments are "looped back" to same point.

“Free Speech in a Free World ”

Since: May 10

AUSTRALIAN

#48582 Oct 1, 2013
number four wrote:
<quoted text>..Crocodile Dundee ...Pretty...!
Do you mean the croc ?

“Free Speech in a Free World ”

Since: May 10

AUSTRALIAN

#48584 Oct 1, 2013
MUQ wrote:
There is a saying in our Hindi / Urdu vernacular "Chor ke darhi me tinka"...
i.e. the Guilty party has a guilty conscience all the time.
see how much our Couch Philospher and KUTARK rationalist are "aware" of my Non-present Presence!!
Why else should I comment on post to post basis.
What I know, is that after 1000 posts, they would be exactly at the same point from where they started.
They are just moving in circles, their arguments are "looped back" to same point.
The same point being ?

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#48585 Oct 1, 2013
MUQ wrote:
There is a saying in our Hindi / Urdu vernacular "Chor ke darhi me tinka"...
i.e. the Guilty party has a guilty conscience all the time.
see how much our Couch Philospher and KUTARK rationalist are "aware" of my Non-present Presence!!
Why else should I comment on post to post basis.
What I know, is that after 1000 posts, they would be exactly at the same point from where they started.
They are just moving in circles, their arguments are "looped back" to same point.
The cleric couldn't keep from commenting, since he must have felt how silly his defense of Islam sounded in comparison to the discussion between couch philosopher and rationalist. When did you ever convince anybody? The fact is that you can try for thousand years but Islamic philosophy (if it has anything resembling philosophy)will only elicit derisive laughter and downright contempt.
SIMI HQ Germany

Germany

#48586 Oct 1, 2013
The magnificent seven

Amjad,

Zakir,

Guddu,

Aslam,

Abu Faizal,

Ezazuddin

and

Abid

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