I renounce Islam

“Freedom, NOT islam.”

Since: Feb 11

Birmingham UK

#336 Feb 18, 2013
Qadir mengal wrote:
who="Jules in the UK"]Nothing from abra muhammed????
Oh dear. I had hoped for some word. I wanted to see what pathetic defensive of his faith he was planning to mount. But I think the only thing he is capable of mounting, his his families goat!
Mengal
Dear Jules in the Uk.
Dear irony is that west for the past fifty years wrote a book daily against Mohammad which have no at all any truth all books are distorted facts and foisted material of their own to disfame Mohammad and Islam,
Yes Abrah came to destroy Kaba perhaps in the year when prophet born, It was Prophets uncle who was pagan He told the Abrah that he only wants his camels and Kabba has its own master or owner,. Abrah amazed for this demand, any how later Abrah seen the scene. and was destroyed by Allah
I dont think your post has even the slightest reference to what I was talking about. But since you raise the subject, allah was a moon god idol that belonged to muhammeds family. Because of a lying murdering caravan robber, you are praying to a graven image.
Good luck with that.

Since: Jul 11

Maple, Canada

#337 Feb 18, 2013
Ex Muslim wrote:
A couple of years ago I used to be on this forum as an ardent Muslim who tried to defend Islam against what I perceived were baseless attacks. I'm not some troll or a non-muslim guy pretending to have left Islam just to discredit it. I really truly was a strong believing Muslim.
How much has changed since then. After a while of thinking and reasoning, I began to see the flaws of Islam become more apparent. Muslims invent imaginative lies and frivolous explainations to cover up some of the dirtiest aspects of Islam. The Qur'an is not filled with scientific miracles as they propose, but rather numerous fallacies and scientific errors. It systematically opresses women and treats them lesser then men (see Hadith: "Women are deficent in intelligence to men" and Qu'ran: "Men have been made a few degrees superior to women". The list can go on, but I will summarize; it is backwards, incorrect, and extremely flawed.
After realizing this, I renounced Islam. Of course I cannot tell my family or friends this, as the penalty for leaving Islam is death (another reason why I was convinced Islam is incredibly false). So I must pretend to be a Muslim for my own sake, something which drives me crazy every day to watch them do their silly rituals, believe in their nonsensical things (Jinn, black magic, etc.), and their rejection of modern science and learning (like Evolution).
So i just wanted to let all the people on this forum attacking Islam that what you are doing is working. You are starting the process of critical thinking in some Muslims (like myself) that allows us to see what Islam really is, and to leave it. So please don't stop, especially all the athiests and scientists. I am now an athiest, and replaced my vigour of learning Islam for learning about what the world truly is.
For all Muslims reading this: Please stop trying to defend relgion. One day hopefully you will have the epiphany that I did, and leave it. I too was once an ardent supporter, and it took me a long time to leave Islam, but I'm convinced that I made the right choice.
Just came by this thread today- Interesting read- But I am still trying to convince myself of your genuinity, but for the sake of argument I can give you the benefit of doubt and assume that you are what you claim to be- although there are inconsistancies in your own narrations, for example in the post from 2007 you refer you claim to be 12 at that time, and now you say you are a graduate in Bio-chemisrty (??)- anyways I wish you have some explanation for that. What I find rather weird is that in that post, you had actually presented dozens of Quranic verses in support of your arguments, and had actually defended some of them quite logically. Now that you have changed to the extent that you think all of that is false and fairytale, what is your rationale now in opposing the same? In other words, can you prove those verses false the same way you proved them to be correct? Just pick any few of those and explain, when you get a chance. And your claim that you changed bcz of one hadith that according to you ridicules women isn't very convincing either, especially after reading your earlier post.

“Facts, not fiction”

Since: Apr 07

Earth

#338 Feb 18, 2013
L4ALL wrote:
<quoted text>
And your claim that you changed bcz of one hadith that according to you ridicules women isn't very convincing either, especially after reading your earlier post.
I think someone here needs to get some reading comprehension, since Ex-muslim did not claim one hadith made him change his mind. He used one hadith as an example of the problems he encountered in defending his religion.

Since: Apr 12

Concord, CA

#339 Feb 19, 2013
L4ALL wrote:
Just came by this thread today- Interesting read- But I am still trying to convince myself of your genuinity, but for the sake of argument I can give you the benefit of doubt and assume that you are what you claim to be- although there are inconsistancies in your own narrations, for example in the post from 2007 you refer you claim to be 12 at that time, and now you say you are a graduate in Bio-chemisrty (??)- anyways I wish you have some explanation for that. What I find rather weird is that in that post, you had actually presented dozens of Quranic verses in support of your arguments, and had actually defended some of them quite logically. Now that you have changed to the extent that you think all of that is false and fairytale, what is your rationale now in opposing the same? In other words, can you prove those verses false the same way you proved them to be correct? Just pick any few of those and explain, when you get a chance. And your claim that you changed bcz of one hadith that according to you ridicules women isn't very convincing either, especially after reading your earlier post.
Hi L4ALL,

I'm not sure if ExMuslim was a sunni/shia/ahmedi. Remember when Nabeel Qureshi left ahmadiyya for Christianiaty, sunnis would claim that he wasn't a true muslim to begin with. And then another Qureshi (Farhan) comverted from Ahmadiyya to Sunni, they cheered him as seeing the truth, and now after he left Islam and become an agnostic, they tried to brush it aside because he was Ahmadiyya to begin with, as if he never embraced their "true islam" (eventhough he debated for them). I wonder if you consider "sunni" a true form of Islam (I remember you're an Ahmadi muslim), if so, if a Sunni (assume ExMuslim was) leaves Islam, would you argue, as Sunnis do, that he was not a true muslim to begin with, or would you consider Sunni islam close enough to your brand of Islam that leaving it would be almost as unacceptable as leaving Ahmadiyya Islam?

That was just my question out of curiosity about how Ahmadi community views Sunni/Shia apostasy... On your question of "Now that you have changed to the extent that you think all of that is false and fairytale, what is your rationale now in opposing the same?", I think it isn't all that "unthinkable", one's view can and do change really dramatically with a new lense.(have you ever coma across someone who "ignorantly" claimed Islam was like fairytale but dramatically "sees" it as ultimate truth?)

Since: Jul 11

Toronto, Canada

#341 Feb 19, 2013
Marco the atheist wrote:
<quoted text>
I think someone here needs to get some reading comprehension, since Ex-muslim did not claim one hadith made him change his mind. He used one hadith as an example of the problems he encountered in defending his religion.
You are right, "Someone" needs a reading comprehension. So YOU go back and read again, he clearly indicated that particular hadith to be a turning point for his ideologies

Since: Jul 11

Toronto, Canada

#342 Feb 19, 2013
Rusty Tin Can wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi L4ALL,
I'm not sure if ExMuslim was a sunni/shia/ahmedi. Remember when Nabeel Qureshi left ahmadiyya for Christianiaty, sunnis would claim that he wasn't a true muslim to begin with. And then another Qureshi (Farhan) comverted from Ahmadiyya to Sunni, they cheered him as seeing the truth, and now after he left Islam and become an agnostic, they tried to brush it aside because he was Ahmadiyya to begin with, as if he never embraced their "true islam" (eventhough he debated for them). I wonder if you consider "sunni" a true form of Islam (I remember you're an Ahmadi muslim), if so, if a Sunni (assume ExMuslim was) leaves Islam, would you argue, as Sunnis do, that he was not a true muslim to begin with, or would you consider Sunni islam close enough to your brand of Islam that leaving it would be almost as unacceptable as leaving Ahmadiyya Islam?
That was just my question out of curiosity about how Ahmadi community views Sunni/Shia apostasy... On your question of "Now that you have changed to the extent that you think all of that is false and fairytale, what is your rationale now in opposing the same?", I think it isn't all that "unthinkable", one's view can and do change really dramatically with a new lense.(have you ever coma across someone who "ignorantly" claimed Islam was like fairytale but dramatically "sees" it as ultimate truth?)
I do care if he left Islam to be an agnostic regardless of his sect, as he did believe in all basics of Islam and actually praticed it quite fervently (according to his own narrations)

And I do understand idelogies change, eapecially during early years of manhood & wisdom (as in his case, apparently)- Just curious that since he was trying to prove those verses scientifically, and not following them blindly (again, as per his own posts), how is he now doing the same in the opposite direction, using the same scientific principles that he believes in (I am assuming that you have read his earlier posts thoroughly)

Since: Apr 12

San Francisco, CA

#343 Feb 19, 2013
L4ALL wrote:
I do care if he left Islam to be an agnostic regardless of his sect, as he did believe in all basics of Islam and actually praticed it quite fervently (according to his own narrations)
What is being an agnostic is the most honest position he could be? Wouldn't you also care if he betray his honest belief to be a compelled believer, regardless of his religion?

I do sense Farhan's sincerity when and after he was a muslim.
L4ALL wrote:
And I do understand idelogies change, eapecially during early years of manhood & wisdom (as in his case, apparently)- Just curious that since he was trying to prove those verses scientifically, and not following them blindly (again, as per his own posts), how is he now doing the same in the opposite direction, using the same scientific principles that he believes in (I am assuming that you have read his earlier posts thoroughly)
No, in fact I have only read a few posts from Ex Muslim (thats why I don't know if he ever disclosed the sect he belonged to). I stopped following after a few posts, and I do see the familiar pattern of responses from atheists.

Since: Apr 12

San Francisco, CA

#344 Feb 19, 2013
Rusty Tin Can wrote:
<quoted text>
What is being an agnostic is the most honest position he could be? Wouldn't you also care if he betray his honest belief to be a compelled believer, regardless of his religion?
I do sense Farhan's sincerity when and after he was a muslim.
<quoted text>
No, in fact I have only read a few posts from Ex Muslim (thats why I don't know if he ever disclosed the sect he belonged to). I stopped following after a few posts, and I do see the familiar pattern of responses from atheists.
typo:

"What is being an agnostic..."

should read

"What IF being an agnostic..."

Since: Apr 12

San Francisco, CA

#345 Feb 19, 2013
L4ALL wrote:
he clearly indicated that particular hadith to be a turning point for his ideologies
It could be just a "trigger point"?

Since: Dec 07

Location hidden

#346 Feb 19, 2013
L4ALL wrote:
<quoted text>
You are right, "Someone" needs a reading comprehension. So YOU go back and read again, he clearly indicated that particular hadith to be a turning point for his ideologies
That's not true. You see what you want to see. He gave several reasons why he chose to leave islam, the hadith was only one of those reasons. Just to refresh your memory, here is an excerpt from his very first post.
Ex Muslim wrote:
How much has changed since then. After a while of thinking and reasoning, I began to see the flaws of Islam become more apparent. Muslims invent imaginative lies and frivolous explainations to cover up some of the dirtiest aspects of Islam. The Qur'an is not filled with scientific miracles as they propose, but rather numerous fallacies and scientific errors. It systematically opresses women and treats them lesser then men (see Hadith: "Women are deficent in intelligence to men" and Qu'ran: "Men have been made a few degrees superior to women". The list can go on, but I will summarize; it is backwards, incorrect, and extremely flawed.
After realizing this, I renounced Islam. Of course I cannot tell my family or friends this, as the penalty for leaving Islam is death (another reason why I was convinced Islam is incredibly false).

“Facts, not fiction”

Since: Apr 07

Earth

#347 Feb 20, 2013
L4ALL wrote:
<quoted text>
You are right, "Someone" needs a reading comprehension. So YOU go back and read again, he clearly indicated that particular hadith to be a turning point for his ideologies
"How much has changed since then. After a while of thinking and reasoning, I began to see the flaws of Islam become more apparent. Muslims invent imaginative lies and frivolous explainations to cover up some of the dirtiest aspects of Islam. The Qur'an is not filled with scientific miracles as they propose, but rather numerous fallacies and scientific errors. It systematically opresses women and treats them lesser then men (see Hadith: "Women are deficent in intelligence to men" and Qu'ran: "Men have been made a few degrees superior to women". The list can go on, but I will summarize; it is backwards, incorrect, and extremely flawed."

That's not a single hadith, but the whole concept of islam that was the "turning point"

Since: Jul 11

Toronto, Canada

#349 Feb 21, 2013
Marco the atheist wrote:
<quoted text>
"How much has changed since then. After a while of thinking and reasoning, I began to see the flaws of Islam become more apparent. Muslims invent imaginative lies and frivolous explainations to cover up some of the dirtiest aspects of Islam. The Qur'an is not filled with scientific miracles as they propose, but rather numerous fallacies and scientific errors. It systematically opresses women and treats them lesser then men (see Hadith: "Women are deficent in intelligence to men" and Qu'ran: "Men have been made a few degrees superior to women". The list can go on, but I will summarize; it is backwards, incorrect, and extremely flawed."
That's not a single hadith, but the whole concept of islam that was the "turning point"
That's almost besides the point now, but just read his post# 77 again-

Anyways I am more interested in knowing how he finds the same verses fairytale now which he apparently proved correct scientifically and logically- and was NOT just following blindly.. If 2+2 was 4 yesterday, how is it 5 today. But apparently he is choosing to keep quiet now, which is only increasing my doubt in his genuinity

“Facts, not fiction”

Since: Apr 07

Earth

#350 Feb 21, 2013
L4ALL wrote:
<quoted text>
That's almost besides the point now, but just read his post# 77 again-
One hadith just made him think further. That's not the same as one hadith changing his mind. Sometimes you need a trigger to realise the other problems.
L4ALL wrote:
<quoted text>
Anyways I am more interested in knowing how he finds the same verses fairytale now which he apparently proved correct scientifically and logically- and was NOT just following blindly.. If 2+2 was 4 yesterday, how is it 5 today. But apparently he is choosing to keep quiet now, which is only increasing my doubt in his genuinity
People have other things to do in their life beyond commenting at topix!

The process Ex-muslim describes is a well-know one in psychology: if you very strongly believe in something, you will often twist and turn any evidence such that it fits your belief. In such cases "logic" is often clearly not "logic" at all. You can show flat earthers as many evidence of the earth being round, they simply won't accept it, or argue their way out in their own version of "logic". They have committed to their idea and for whatever reason cannot abandon it anymore.

Ex-muslim is one of those few who despite being totally committed to an ideology has run into an issue he could not accept, allowing him to question the other beliefs he held as true. That takes guts, although Ex-muslim should be careful not to fall in the same trap again. It may have been the typical problem of youth, but it could also be that his brain is wired to get stuck in an ideology (although he has already shown that he can get himself out of that trap).

Since: Jul 11

Toronto, Canada

#354 Feb 22, 2013
Marco the atheist wrote:
<quoted text>
One hadith just made him think further. That's not the same as one hadith changing his mind. Sometimes you need a trigger to realise the other problems.
<quoted text>
People have other things to do in their life beyond commenting at topix!
The process Ex-muslim describes is a well-know one in psychology: if you very strongly believe in something, you will often twist and turn any evidence such that it fits your belief. In such cases "logic" is often clearly not "logic" at all. You can show flat earthers as many evidence of the earth being round, they simply won't accept it, or argue their way out in their own version of "logic". They have committed to their idea and for whatever reason cannot abandon it anymore.
Ex-muslim is one of those few who despite being totally committed to an ideology has run into an issue he could not accept, allowing him to question the other beliefs he held as true. That takes guts, although Ex-muslim should be careful not to fall in the same trap again. It may have been the typical problem of youth, but it could also be that his brain is wired to get stuck in an ideology (although he has already shown that he can get himself out of that trap).
Ex-Muslim has replied to me personally, and proven that you are WRONG- That particular hadith was indeed the turning point for him-here's what he says- "... the hadith about women was the tipping point that caused me to reevaluate everything I thought about Islam" (Sorry ex-Muslim, I had to quote you as these guys are sticking to a point for no reason)

"The process Ex-muslim describes is a well-know one in psychology: if you very strongly believe in something, you will often twist and turn any evidence such that it fits your belief. In such cases "logic" is often clearly not "logic" at all....."

This is a very vague statement, without any reference whatsoever. He had quoted more than a dozen verses, which need to be discussed individually. Just shrugging off with the old atheist notion that one twists the reality to fit his belief doesn't serve any purpose, except for probably hinting that you are actually yourself following the same path. After all, you also "strongly believe" that all religion is false.

“Facts, not fiction”

Since: Apr 07

Earth

#355 Feb 22, 2013
L4ALL wrote:
<quoted text>
Ex-Muslim has replied to me personally, and proven that you are WRONG- That particular hadith was indeed the turning point for him-here's what he says- "... the hadith about women was the tipping point that caused me to reevaluate everything I thought about Islam" (Sorry ex-Muslim, I had to quote you as these guys are sticking to a point for no reason)
"Tipping point" =/ "turning point".
L4ALL wrote:
<quoted text>
"The process Ex-muslim describes is a well-know one in psychology: if you very strongly believe in something, you will often twist and turn any evidence such that it fits your belief. In such cases "logic" is often clearly not "logic" at all....."
This is a very vague statement, without any reference whatsoever.
You might want to read Eric Hoffer's "the true believer", although this focuses on mass movements. However, the way people get sucked into such movements and simply lose the ability to think for themselves is well described.

James Randi's Carlos Hoax is also quite informative. It all shows how people hold on to beliefs even when hit with a bucketload of evidence to the contrary, in this case when told that Carlos was a fake, they *still* believed Carlos was right.

More funny stuff:
Nyhan and Reifler's Backfire Effect, when confronting people with facts can make their incorrect beliefs *even stronger*.

You can also look up "motivated reasoning".
L4ALL wrote:
<quoted text>
He had quoted more than a dozen verses, which need to be discussed individually. Just shrugging off with the old atheist notion that one twists the reality to fit his belief doesn't serve any purpose, except for probably hinting that you are actually yourself following the same path. After all, you also "strongly believe" that all religion is false.
As a skeptic, I actually test that "belief" all the time.

Since: Feb 13

Quesnel, Canada

#356 Feb 22, 2013
My posts no longer show on this topic, what is going on?

Since: Feb 13

Quesnel, Canada

#357 Feb 22, 2013
Finally it appears to be working. And as you requested L4ALL I will rebut more of the verses I originally stood behind later tonight.

However, I do believe Marco is right when he talks about the "believer" effect. It is very easy to twist information around to suit your beliefs, whether you do so consciously or unconsciously. For I demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of the subject matter, and when I did come to that understanding later on in life, it changed my view of them. Then it became clear that the arguments I used to support those verses were based off incorrect translations, and complete ignorance of some of their gaping flaws (eg. the order of how the mountains, stars, sun, and moon were created).

Since: Dec 07

Location hidden

#358 Feb 22, 2013
Ex Muslim wrote:
My posts no longer show on this topic, what is going on?
Did you have any links in those posts that may have been caught by the topix filters?

Do you see your posts when you are logged in? If you do, respond to them and see if they turn up that way. If they have links, add a space somewhere in the link to break it, then it usually shows. The filters here are a bit flaky sometimes.

Since: Feb 13

Canada

#360 Feb 22, 2013
I will just post that message I sent L4ALL for all to see:

Just to confirm I was a Sunni Muslim, and the hadith about women was the tipping point that caused me to reevaluate everything I thought about Islam. Moreover, my current world view I would say is that of an atheist, or at least anti-spiritual.

Anyways back to answering your question. The thing is I did NOT prove these verse correctly or scientifically, that's the whole thing. I took those verses straight from the Islamic creationist Harun Yayha (AKA Adnan Oktar) and his website as well as his book, "The Atlas of Creation". However these verses are translated rather erroneously, and make several deviations from the mainstream and traditional translations. I will rebut one verse in particular:
[51:47] "And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and it is We Who are steadily expanding it."

According to the mainstream translations:
Yusuf Ali: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.
Pickthal: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Shakir: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

This immediately negates the verse I used earlier. I will simply summarize by saying that Quranic cosmology is ridiculously wrong and incorrect, often ripping straight from the bible.

The reason I really reject those verses I once used to support Islam, is because now I have a much more thorough and professional education in the sciences. I have been able to more carefully examine the content in the Qur'an, and realized that it does not hold up to scientific and rational scrutiny. I could go on in detail rebutting each of those verses, but those links I mentioned go into much more detail that I can go here in this short post.

In summary, I was NOT operating scientifically and logically as you propose. In fact reading those posts, it is quite embarrassing how often I burst out into nonsensical rants, such as my denial of evolution, which I now know to be a preposterous thing to do given my education and and amount of learning in that subject.

Any more questions and I'd be happy to answer them.

Since: Feb 13

Canada

#361 Feb 22, 2013
Ravenclaw wrote:
<quoted text>
Did you have any links in those posts that may have been caught by the topix filters?
Do you see your posts when you are logged in? If you do, respond to them and see if they turn up that way. If they have links, add a space somewhere in the link to break it, then it usually shows. The filters here are a bit flaky sometimes.
Thanks Ravenclaw that seemed to work!

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