I renounce Islam

“Facts, not fiction”

Since: Apr 07

Earth

#209 Feb 10, 2013
Saladeen wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Islam is purely based on intelligence to start with unlike atheism which has no logic at all.
.....it is scienticly accespted that nothing can be created from nothing but rather there must always a cause of its existance...and so to say that the life was created out of nothing has no logic .
As I expected, the self-contradictory approach: you accept your god just "exists" but consider it illogic that life was created "out of nothing".

(of course, science does not say life was created "out of nothing")
Saladeen wrote:
<quoted text>
..something that the Quran consantrates the mind of the people and leading them to use their intelect saying:
...."Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]?"
As I said already that nothing is created out of nothing and we could not created ourselves upon which we should reflect and search the cause of our creation.
And why would "god" be an acceptable explanation? As I already noted, it just moves the question further: who created god? And if god can just exist, why even come with the god hypothesis, since you already accepted something can just exist?
Saladeen wrote:
<quoted text>
2. It might be that in reality there is explanation for everithing but the explanation opposes your worldly desires and so you don't want to accept it.....making the only reason that you can't believe in something you don't see or can't touch.
"might" is the right word. In science we use the word "might" for explanations that we consider highly ulikely. It is indeed unlikely that this is an explanation for my lack of belief. After all, I can easily *make* a religion that suits my worldy desires and involves the belief in some kind of deity. Many people have done so.
Saladeen wrote:
<quoted text>
Indeed there are many evidence of the existance of the Creator of the heavens and the earth but these can be only relelazed throgh reflection.
Albert Einstein was the scientist that all the scentists look to.
Not quite. For example, regardless of his remarkable intelligence, he didn't want to accept that *his own ideas* invariably led to quantum mechanics, and the uncertainty principle. Because he stuck to his unproven belief that everything was causal, he could not accept what was shown to be a better description of nature.
Saladeen wrote:
<quoted text>
He was a person who studied the creation and who reflected upon it. I am not claiming he agreed with Islam but without doubt he believed that due to the perfect harmony of the universe there must be a Wise Creator.
Actually, that would be a lie. Einstein noted quite clearly that "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
(March 24, 1954)

Earlier he had already said "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment." (1950).

Both make it clear he did not believe in a sentient creator. Since you use him to make a point, I assume you will now give up your religion, since you believe he is such a worthy person to refer to in terms of religion. However, knowing how religious zealots react to contrary information, you are likely to just dismiss Einstein from now on, since you find out he actually contradicts your beliefs.
Saladeen

Bristol, UK

#210 Feb 10, 2013
Marco the atheist wrote:
<quoted text>
Depending on which muslim ideology you follow, they include Mohammed literally flying into the sky on a horse, the nonmiscibility of fresh and salt water (there is no imprenetrable barrier between the two), humans being created from clay or from one being, meteors that are trying to shoot the devil away, the moon being split in two, apparently not being aware that the sun is a star, claiming the earth existed before the universe, the muslims also find themselves in a conundrum the further they go away from the equator whenever they need to vast during ramadan (apparently someone didn't tell them the length of the day depends on latitude and the season), the koran ignores all the living beings that reproduce asexual (like bacteria, which needs no pair); etc, etc, etc.
Not that this will make an impact on you, since you will evoke circular argumentation: the koran is perfect, therefore it cannot contain a mistake, and therefore the interpretation is wrong or science is wrong (oh, and then there are the miracles...).
I follow the classical understanding of the Quran based on the explanation of the companions of Muhammad and the first three generations of Muslims.
I view today modern explanations of the Quran based on the understanding of later people to be incorrect....
...such as trying to explain surten verses to fit it to the science to use it as evidence for the people to accept Islam.

Muhammad already explained the Quran and without doubt it is a book of the signs of God (sun, wind, day changing to night ..act.) and not a book of science.

The Quran doesn't necessary speaks of the creation scientifically but rather it concentrates the mind of the people to reflect upon what they see....( the sun circulation around the sky or the sun disappears in murky water)
Mahmood

Schomberg, Canada

#211 Feb 10, 2013
Saladeen wrote:
<quoted text>
No these things regarding the history of the life of Muhammad and the Quran are only doubtful to those with no surten knowledge and that is probably why you left Islam.
There are two main things that leads one to reject Islam:
1. Doubt
2. Desire
...in most cases the secound follows the first.
Knowledge my friend is weapon against these cheap doubts that the friends of the Shaytan throws in to the hearts of the Muslims and without doubt you have failed.
My Allah forgive you and guide you by giving you the desire to really search for the truth becouse you won't find it by just reading few articles and watch youtube online.
However it might be that you tasted the duniya already and devoleped love for it so much that you hate to hear the truth and by any means looking for something to oppose it.
FYI, I already well guided. There is no need for me to follow any 7thCE rule book because I live by the golden rule and that is enough for me. Besides, I have better moral values than the authors of the Koran.

Islamic history is spurious and sketchy and therefore not to be trusted. The whole corpus of 7th CE Islamic history is based on oral traditions and are not to be relied upon.

It has not been proven that Muhammad is a prophet. Nor has it been proven that the previous "prophets" that allegedly came before him were themselves prophets, much less existed at all!

And if you trust Islamic history, then Islam grew from the ashes of violence & murder. Mohammad raided tribes, killed it’s males, sold women & children into slavery. How can a muslim claim violence has no connection with religion?

Muslims gobble up every pro-Islamic literature put in front of them without analyzing it through a rational mind.

Islam without violence is like an egg free omlette. It’s religion of peace in the same way as North Korea is a democratic republic. Whenever Islam is criticized, moslems engage in violence. By the way, more muslims have been killed by their fellow muslims in the last 10 years - in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, & Pakistan.

Looking forward to your response.
Saladeen

Bristol, UK

#212 Feb 10, 2013
Marco the atheist wrote:
<quoted text>
As I expected, the self-contradictory approach: you accept your god just "exists" but consider it illogic that life was created "out of nothing".
(of course, science does not say life was created "out of nothing")
<quoted text>
....science is a law applied to a creation only such as things which we see, smell, feel or hear but God understood by Muslims isn't creation and so things such as space and time doesn't apply to Him.

God is above His creation therefore has no beginning...meaning he couldn't even come out of nothing because He always existed...

...I know you can't accepted since it isn't proven by science but no one ever claimed that the science must understand everything and as II said already science can only deal with materialistic things.

Spiritual existence was never understood by science nor things like paranormal activity or magic yet they known to people and so we cant really say that science is the ultimate tool for proving everything

Based on my understanding Albert Einstein didn't believed in the same God as Muslim meaning God who judges and controls the life's of the people but he believed in a Creator.

"I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws." (Albert Einstein)
Saladeen

Bristol, UK

#213 Feb 10, 2013
Mahmood wrote:
<quoted text>
FYI, I already well guided. There is no need for me to follow any 7thCE rule book because I live by the golden rule and that is enough for me. Besides, I have better moral values than the authors of the Koran.
Islamic history is spurious and sketchy and therefore not to be trusted. The whole corpus of 7th CE Islamic history is based on oral traditions and are not to be relied upon.
It has not been proven that Muhammad is a prophet. Nor has it been proven that the previous "prophets" that allegedly came before him were themselves prophets, much less existed at all!
And if you trust Islamic history, then Islam grew from the ashes of violence & murder. Mohammad raided tribes, killed it’s males, sold women & children into slavery. How can a muslim claim violence has no connection with religion?
Muslims gobble up every pro-Islamic literature put in front of them without analyzing it through a rational mind.
Islam without violence is like an egg free omlette. It’s religion of peace in the same way as North Korea is a democratic republic. Whenever Islam is criticized, moslems engage in violence. By the way, more muslims have been killed by their fellow muslims in the last 10 years - in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, & Pakistan.
Looking forward to your response.
I will respond to you post in little while as I need to spent little be of time with my family...

“Facts, not fiction”

Since: Apr 07

Earth

#214 Feb 10, 2013
Saladeen wrote:
<quoted text>
I follow the classical understanding of the Quran based on the explanation of the companions of Muhammad and the first three generations of Muslims.
And how would you know those? The hadith? Well, then you already have to make a decision which narrative line is most likely to be correct, which is an interpretation of later times...
Saladeen wrote:
<quoted text>
I view today modern explanations of the Quran based on the understanding of later people to be incorrect....
...such as trying to explain surten verses to fit it to the science to use it as evidence for the people to accept Islam.
Muhammad already explained the Quran and without doubt it is a book of the signs of God (sun, wind, day changing to night ..act.) and not a book of science.
The Quran doesn't necessary speaks of the creation scientifically but rather it concentrates the mind of the people to reflect upon what they see....( the sun circulation around the sky or the sun disappears in murky water)
So it uses bad scientific descriptions and you're fine with that (like the "made everything in pairs").

“Facts, not fiction”

Since: Apr 07

Earth

#215 Feb 10, 2013
Saladeen wrote:
<quoted text>
....science is a law applied to a creation only such as things which we see, smell, feel or hear but God understood by Muslims isn't creation and so things such as space and time doesn't apply to Him.
But this is exactly the contradictory notion of religious people: requirements for one, exceptions for the other. The universe *must* have certain attributes, your god has different attributes. The only "reason" to accept this is "belief". Or rather, the *necessity* to have different attributes for the two, or otherwise you know that you cannot sustain the claim that a god exists.
Saladeen wrote:
<quoted text>
God is above His creation therefore has no beginning...meaning he couldn't even come out of nothing because He always existed...
...I know you can't accepted since it isn't proven by science but no one ever claimed that the science must understand everything and as II said already science can only deal with materialistic things.
But then you admit that your god can never be proven to exist (contrary to your earlier claim), since science cannot deal with a nonmaterialistic entity. Again you have to revert back to pure belief. Thereby you contradict your claim there is evidence for a god.
Saladeen wrote:
<quoted text>
Spiritual existence was never understood by science nor things like paranormal activity or magic yet they known to people and so we cant really say that science is the ultimate tool for proving everything
"Magic" is a dangerous word to use. In the old days, lightning was "magic". Today, science does understanding it. "Paranormal activity" is often also understood, although those who claim it is "paranormal" often do not want to accept the scientific explanations, because the explanation does not fit their belief. I know people who ardently belief Uri Geller has some kind of paranormal abilities, bending spoons and such, regardless of how many times James Randi shows it to be a simple trick. Scientists can, using certain drugs or electric stimuli make people have "experiences" they would call "paranormal". Take some "magic mushrooms" and if you had not know you took them, you would have no explanation for all the strange stuff you see, feel, hear and smell.
Saladeen wrote:
<quoted text>
Based on my understanding Albert Einstein didn't believed in the same God as Muslim meaning God who judges and controls the life's of the people but he believed in a Creator.
"I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws." (Albert Einstein)
Again you fail to understand Einstein. At no point does he refer to some being that has created the universe. Nowhere. The obvious problem is that Einstein used the word "God" for something that has a specific meaning to religious people, and a completely different one to him.
george whyte

Grimsby, UK

#216 Feb 10, 2013
Ex Muslim wrote:
A couple of years ago I used to be on this forum as an ardent Muslim who tried to defend Islam against what I perceived were baseless attacks. I'm not some troll or a non-muslim guy pretending to have left Islam just to discredit it. I really truly was a strong believing Muslim.
How much has changed since then. After a while of thinking and reasoning, I began to see the flaws of Islam become more apparent. Muslims invent imaginative lies and frivolous explainations to cover up some of the dirtiest aspects of Islam. The Qur'an is not filled with scientific miracles as they propose, but rather numerous fallacies and scientific errors. It systematically opresses women and treats them lesser then men (see Hadith: "Women are deficent in intelligence to men" and Qu'ran: "Men have been made a few degrees superior to women". The list can go on, but I will summarize; it is backwards, incorrect, and extremely flawed.
After realizing this, I renounced Islam. Of course I cannot tell my family or friends this, as the penalty for leaving Islam is death (another reason why I was convinced Islam is incredibly false). So I must pretend to be a Muslim for my own sake, something which drives me crazy every day to watch them do their silly rituals, believe in their nonsensical things (Jinn, black magic, etc.), and their rejection of modern science and learning (like Evolution).
So i just wanted to let all the people on this forum attacking Islam that what you are doing is working. You are starting the process of critical thinking in some Muslims (like myself) that allows us to see what Islam really is, and to leave it. So please don't stop, especially all the athiests and scientists. I am now an athiest, and replaced my vigour of learning Islam for learning about what the world truly is.
For all Muslims reading this: Please stop trying to defend relgion. One day hopefully you will have the epiphany that I did, and leave it. I too was once an ardent supporter, and it took me a long time to leave Islam, but I'm convinced that I made the right choice.
intresting read

“Freedom, NOT islam.”

Since: Feb 11

Birmingham UK

#217 Feb 10, 2013
Saladeen wrote:
<quoted text>
all that you have mentioned is nothing else but propaganda. Everything in Islam has conditions which after understanding these conditions everything looks deferent from how the people who hate Islam due to their desires have paint it.
For example that man can rape woman and then she will get stone for it..thats totaly lie!!!
Islamic Law is based on justice and so for example if someone kills your member of family you have the right to ask for blood money, forgive him or request for capital punishment.. likewise from the Law of this country where if a man rapes and kills your daughter you have not right to efect anything but rather their give him 50 years in the jail and when he comes out he does it again.
The Islamic Law without doubt is also to expel the evil from among the society whereas the Law of this country is manly to gain worldly interest... for example if you refuse to pay the tax you will be put to jail but there is no punishment for adultery which is without doubt viewed as a evil deed punishable by death in Islam to expel it from the society.
Yes a woman should not refuse hre husband in bed to prevent him go beyond his marriage however he has not right under the Law of Islam to rape her...this is a lie!!!!
There was a woman who went and complain to Muhammad about a man who rape her and so Muhammad ordered for him to be stoned and he sent the woman back to her house saying Allah has forgive you.
Another favourite attack on Muhammad is about his marriage to 6 years old Aiesha...but fanny that those who hated him most due to his direct opposition to the Jews and the Christians living even years after him never mentioned it which is clear indication that there were surten customs maybe not acceptable in later times.
I accepted Islam 5 years ago previously being Christian and I understood how people evilasing Islam due to their hatred and injustice.
You lying muzzie convert. Its up to you if you are stupid enough to accept and follow that load of old garbage - but the way you present yourself, refering to my points as propaganda, demonstrates that you have been brainwashed.
islamdoes stome people to death. That is a known fact. It buries them up to thier chests first too, so that they cant escape.

islamic males do takle child brides. That is also a known fact. They keep campaigning to be allowed to bring them to the west....but it will NEVER happen.
islam does circumcise women - usually when they are very young.This too, is a known fact. A&E depts accross the UK have dealt with plenty of instances where young girls have been needlessly butchered in the name of tradition. I can only assume that there must also have been instances accross the EU too.
islam does chop the hands and/or feet from convicted theives. There are plenty of videos on YOUTUBE demonstrating this fact.
in islam - acording to shariah, for a woman to bring a charge of rape against a man (successfully) she must have 4 'reliable witnesses'. By reliable, they mean 'male.' Only last year, a bagladeshi girl who was kidnapped and raped by her own uncle was either whipped to death or beaten to death. Her crime? Adultary! The man who raped her was married - and he was let off with a caution.
I really cant recall anymore of the points, but they were all true and can easily be checked out on line - unless you want to play the victim card and say thei internet is biased against islam.
And you converted to this? You are either easily led, or emntally unstable....or perhaps even desperate for acceptance.
Whatever the case, you have made a serious mistake. I hope you dont have drastic cause to regret it.
Saladeen

Bristol, UK

#218 Feb 10, 2013
Marco the atheist wrote:
<quoted text>
And how would you know those? The hadith? Well, then you already have to make a decision which narrative line is most likely to be correct, which is an interpretation of later times...
<quoted text>
So it uses bad scientific descriptions and you're fine with that (like the "made everything in pairs").
Many people think again based on their poor knowledge that the hadith were collected so simply ....(any one anywhere said that Muhammad said something)....rather there a many books of the science of the hadith about how they were collected and if you read those books you will not doubt about its authenticity.

No I said even tho it speaks about the creation it doesn't have to nescessery speak of it with scientific approach....however if the Quran claims to be the book of science and then contradicts the science then there is a problem but as I mentioned before...the Quran is not a book of science but a book of signs.

....as I said before it is the innovation of the astrayed Mislims who turn it to a book of science.

The Quran leads people to reflect upon what is known to them and it opens their eyes and enables them to see the signs of their Creator....this is the Quran

"Allah created everithing in pairs"....isn't tho nearly everithing created in pairs?
...or do you say It doesn't say.... "nearly everithing"?
....well nor it says "completely everithing".....but offcorse if it is to be the book of science it might be a problem.

.........however again the Quran isn't a book of science but a book of signs.

Since: Dec 12

UK

#219 Feb 10, 2013
Saladeen wrote:
<quoted text>
.........however again the Quran isn't a book of science but a book of signs.
I am glad that you have realised that because when it comes to science the quran is a very poor book.
Ben

Satellite Provider

#220 Feb 10, 2013
Ex Muslim wrote:
<quoted text>
Just watched his Youtube videos about the "giants that ruled Egypt"... wow you weren't kidding about him being a troll. Crazy litte fellow he is.
Holy damn! You're still here, Trisha? I haven't checked this site since 2011 and you're still here? I feel bad for you, and no, I'm not a muslim. Keep hating on 1.5+ billion people as usual, I really feel bad for you.:(

“M.A....Rise”

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#221 Feb 10, 2013
Ex Muslim wrote:
<quoted text>
Sigh.
I've been waiting for you for a while, but it seems you're never on when I'm on.
If you still want to ask me questions, I'll on 15 hours from now.
really? i will try to catch you in time then lol

so strange, u almost been here before i ask u for challenge

lol i know u greasy hindu too embarrassed to face me
Atheist Silurist

Belfast, UK

#222 Feb 10, 2013
Egyptian_lad wrote:
<quoted text> ur born stupid and real monkey
fk u......We have tolerance more than you and others
At least,we don't hate you or keep hatred in our hearts for anyone, but u bunch of sick cowards who full of hatred toward us
Thats the difference....I'm happily living and share the joy, but u r diseased with hatred
Beyond worst, i hope u get stroke of ur hatred...cokroach
Muslims don't seem very tolerant of anyone who they see has disrespecting their "holy prophet" or their book of myths and fables,the koran.
I see youtube is ban in Egypt,they couldn't tolerate criticism of their deluded ideology so they decided not to just block the offending material,but youtube in its entirety.
They will be blocking access to,topix,next.
The only freedom Islam offers is the freedom of the ruling islamic parties to deny freedom to everyone else.

“M.A....Rise”

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#223 Feb 10, 2013
Atheist Silurist wrote:
<quoted text>
Muslims don't seem very tolerant of anyone who they see has disrespecting their "holy prophet" or their book of myths and fables,the koran.
I see youtube is ban in Egypt,they couldn't tolerate criticism of their deluded ideology so they decided not to just block the offending material,but youtube in its entirety.
They will be blocking access to,topix,next.
The only freedom Islam offers is the freedom of the ruling islamic parties to deny freedom to everyone else.
atheist: if you are respectful and peaceful,muslims will never be intolerant with you.....if u r disrespetful, muslims will avoid you, dude!

lol it has nothing to do with islamic parties, Court just issued a verdict of banning youtube for one month due to the bad anti-islamic flim

i dont think the gov will accept the verdict

I myself is against it completely
otherone

Mumbai, India

#225 Feb 11, 2013
good
Ex Muslim

Delta, Canada

#226 Feb 11, 2013
Saladeen wrote:
Sorry "Ex-muslim" I read your life story ...now I remember who I deal with.
...anyway I asked you few days ago what is the fundamental belief in Islam so could you please answer me my question if you claim to be Muslim in past.
Thank you.
Well you should know as a Muslim that you cannot boil Islam down into a single statement. It obviously rests on a number of different beliefs and pillars, be it the 5 pillars, the 6 articles of faith, etc.

As a Muslim I was taught the importance of Tauheed, the strict oneness of Allah. I was taught that salat (or namaz as we Pakistanis say) was important in keeping oneself mindful of Allah at all times, and important in strenghtening the deen. I was taught that I must believe in all the prophets, and learn from their example. I started reading the Qur'an, the perfect word of Allah which would give me guidance and knowledge, and the Hadith of the Holy Prophet, whose works and deeds I should try to emulate and aspire to. I would fast during Ramadan vigourously, a fact which I was proud of for most of my young life as keeping fast(rosa as we call them) was no easy thing during the long days of the northern latitudes.

These are all fundamental to Islam of course, but I believe what you are looking for is more astetic and subjective. I guess you could say that the most fundamental thing to Islam is believing in Allah, the one God who "neither begot, nor was beggotten. There is none comparable to him" (Surah Al-Ikhlas), and that Muhammad was his last and final messenger (the Seal of the Prophets), which is essentially the message of the Shahadah, the same testimony we recite during our prayers 5 times a day.

Listen, I really am Muslim. I will answer more of your questions if you need that, but it still does not change that I left the religion I was born into.
Ex Muslim

Delta, Canada

#227 Feb 11, 2013
Egyptian_lad wrote:
<quoted text> really? i will try to catch you in time then lol
so strange, u almost been here before i ask u for challenge
lol i know u greasy hindu too embarrassed to face me
Again, I have come on these forums at roughly the same time for the past week. Obviously, as our time zones differ the times you and I are active are not the same. If this was a matter of me being embarassed I wouldn't be communicating with you anymore.

While you won't ask me any questions, I have a question for you. What schooling or education have you obtained thus far in your life? Just curious is all.

Your position on "giants" ruling ancient Egypt make you sound incredibly intelligent and well-learned.

That was sarcasm by the way. I'll look forward to your reply, and any question you want to ask me.
Ex Muslim

Delta, Canada

#228 Feb 11, 2013
Saladeen wrote:
<quoted text>
....science is a law applied to a creation only such as things which we see, smell, feel or hear but God understood by Muslims isn't creation and so things such as space and time doesn't apply to Him.
God is above His creation therefore has no beginning...meaning he couldn't even come out of nothing because He always existed...
...I know you can't accepted since it isn't proven by science but no one ever claimed that the science must understand everything and as II said already science can only deal with materialistic things.
Spiritual existence was never understood by science nor things like paranormal activity or magic yet they known to people and so we cant really say that science is the ultimate tool for proving everything
Based on my understanding Albert Einstein didn't believed in the same God as Muslim meaning God who judges and controls the life's of the people but he believed in a Creator.
"I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws." (Albert Einstein)
Marco did a great job addressing this, but I'd like to add a bit more.

The reason you give for God being able to exist because he transcends our understanding is self-defeating. By that same logic, I could argue that the universe could have produced itself without the need of a god, as existence and reality before it were beyond our understanding and also perpetually existing. In fact, we are beginning to understand what there was before the universe began. There have been many post-Standard Model ideas, such as String Theory, which posits the existence of the Multiverse, a plane of existence that has no time, no space, no concept of cause and effect, and contains folds of reality called "branes" on which different universe form and collapse. Stephen Hawking even said that the laws of physics show that the universe can exist without the need of a god.

Science does not deal with things that are only "materialistic", it deals with understanding how the universe works, and essentially why reality is the way it is. As Neil Degrasse Tyson said, you need to see the world for what it really is, not what you wish it to be.

Things like "magic" and "paranormal activity" have been disproved over and over again by science. To assert that science is not the ultimate tool for finding things because it can't understand the supernatural is not true, as over and over again scientific thoughts and discoveries have destroyed old superstitions.

It was once thought that diseases were caused by demons and ghouls. It was once thought that man originated from a single creation event. It was once thought that people's personalities were controlled by their "souls" and "spirits". These are all spirtual or supernatural things, yet scientists and rational men decided to examine and study these subjects, and they discredited them completely.

Moreover, you completely misunderstand Einstein. He was a fierce critic of religion, often called it an "immaturity" or a "childish fantasy". He believed that there was a possiblity in a "god" or "creator" that was more metaphorical,("I believe in Spinoza's God" as he said). He was an agnostic, and attacked the idea of an afterlife or a personal god, something which is very important to Islam.
Rabbeen Al Jihad

Salt Lake City, UT

#229 Feb 11, 2013
Ex Muslim wrote:
<quoted text>
Marco did a great job addressing this, but I'd like to add a bit more.
The reason you give for God being able to exist because he transcends our understanding is self-defeating. By that same logic, I could argue that the universe could have produced itself without the need of a god, as existence and reality before it were beyond our understanding and also perpetually existing. In fact, we are beginning to understand what there was before the universe began. There have been many post-Standard Model ideas, such as String Theory, which posits the existence of the Multiverse, a plane of existence that has no time, no space, no concept of cause and effect, and contains folds of reality called "branes" on which different universe form and collapse. Stephen Hawking even said that the laws of physics show that the universe can exist without the need of a god.
Science does not deal with things that are only "materialistic", it deals with understanding how the universe works, and essentially why reality is the way it is. As Neil Degrasse Tyson said, you need to see the world for what it really is, not what you wish it to be.
Things like "magic" and "paranormal activity" have been disproved over and over again by science. To assert that science is not the ultimate tool for finding things because it can't understand the supernatural is not true, as over and over again scientific thoughts and discoveries have destroyed old superstitions.
It was once thought that diseases were caused by demons and ghouls. It was once thought that man originated from a single creation event. It was once thought that people's personalities were controlled by their "souls" and "spirits". These are all spirtual or supernatural things, yet scientists and rational men decided to examine and study these subjects, and they discredited them completely.
Moreover, you completely misunderstand Einstein. He was a fierce critic of religion, often called it an "immaturity" or a "childish fantasy". He believed that there was a possiblity in a "god" or "creator" that was more metaphorical,("I believe in Spinoza's God" as he said). He was an agnostic, and attacked the idea of an afterlife or a personal god, something which is very important to Islam.
Salaamz E M LOL! Science and the rest of the denialist-clubs will always refute the existance of God,Paranormal Activity,and anything of the Supernatural Realms that is beyond their own little sandbox.Simply because they have no way to substantiate,quantify,or calculate that which is out of their league,so denial is their only recourse!LOL at least for now.Fortunately things change in the 7 universes constantly. Cheerz

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