It is crunch time for organized religion

Full story: Examiner.com

It is ironic that over the past several years it has been an Episcopal bible scholar and theologian, Bishop John Shelby Spong , who has been warning Christians that the Church is dying under us because we are failing in our response to the cultural demands that Christianity is experiencing.
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“The Kingdom of God Begins NOW!”

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#1
Jul 23, 2012
 

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From the article:

"Which brings us to the present day, as evangelical churches are beginning to empty out and the Episcopalians become more inclusive at their latest General Convention. By now the Episcopalians who are shaking their fists and vowing never to consider a woman or gay Christian to be their spiritual equals have had their effect; they can't do it over again. But the Barna Group is telling the evangelicals that their churches are declining because they are being abandoned by their own children--the same children who have gay friends and co-workers and don't want to live in a hate-filled world of hysteria.

I have to point out in passing that I see a profound difference between the children who are rejecting the homophobia and hate of their parents and the adult Episcopalians who embraced that hate, taking their children with them for now, and formed a breakaway denomination that was explicitly formed to reject LGBT Episcopalians. The evangelicals' children are rejecting hate, and the schismatic Episcopalians embraced it. That is going to work out, inevitably, that the children of the rebelling Episcopalians will reject the situation. It can't go any other way."

Very good article.....

“The Black Mermaid”

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Jul 24, 2012
 

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MiddleWay wrote:
From the article:
"Which brings us to the present day, as evangelical churches are beginning to empty out and the Episcopalians become more inclusive at their latest General Convention. By now the Episcopalians who are shaking their fists and vowing never to consider a woman or gay Christian to be their spiritual equals have had their effect; they can't do it over again. But the Barna Group is telling the evangelicals that their churches are declining because they are being abandoned by their own children--the same children who have gay friends and co-workers and don't want to live in a hate-filled world of hysteria.
I have to point out in passing that I see a profound difference between the children who are rejecting the homophobia and hate of their parents and the adult Episcopalians who embraced that hate, taking their children with them for now, and formed a breakaway denomination that was explicitly formed to reject LGBT Episcopalians. The evangelicals' children are rejecting hate, and the schismatic Episcopalians embraced it. That is going to work out, inevitably, that the children of the rebelling Episcopalians will reject the situation. It can't go any other way."
Very good article.....
It's wonderful and I've believed this all along - the kids growing up today are being educated enough to erase the hate towards people who are different from them. I bet the old-time believers HATE that - good for them! I'm so glad you posted that. Intelligence and education are winning :)

“Ecce! Sic transit gloria mundi”

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Jul 24, 2012
 

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I still find it disturbing that people keep pushing numbers (up or down) as important. Materialism is not a 'Christian' value; however, it is a wonderful measure lust and greed.
It is the result of the sin of gluttony pushed in the 50ís, 60ís and 70ís that brought so many untrained new members into TEC.

I think that before any congregational vote that each voter be shown to be an official member of TEC by their record or baptism, confirmation or reception into the church.

Many of those congregations that have attempted to leave TEC should have been forced in prove in court that the members voting had the right to vote on the motion.

“The Black Mermaid”

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Jul 24, 2012
 

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I have not studied him in-depth, for what I do know I've always found Spong to be very sensible.
paul shykora ARTs

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Jul 24, 2012
 

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..THE ESTABISHED..Churches...will ''change'',..but be here on Earth,for anothe one-thousand years...eh..

“... truth will out.”

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Jul 24, 2012
 

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Sherlayne wrote:
I have not studied him in-depth, for what I do know I've always found Spong to be very sensible.
Unless you're agnostic, how sensible are the first six of Bishop Spong's Twelve Thesis?

1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.

2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.

3. The Biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.

4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.

5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.

6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed ...

... and there are six more where these came from.

“The Black Mermaid”

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Jul 24, 2012
 

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Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
Unless you're agnostic, how sensible are the first six of Bishop Spong's Twelve Thesis?
1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.
2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.
3. The Biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.
4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.
5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.
6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed ...
... and there are six more where these came from.
Up to you but I'm definitely interested in hearing more from you.

“... truth will out.”

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Jul 25, 2012
 

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Sherlayne wrote:
<quoted text>
Up to you but I'm definitely interested in hearing more from you.
Well, I could post the other six, but how sensible are the first six of Bishop Spong's Twelve Thesis?

“The Kingdom of God Begins NOW!”

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#9
Jul 25, 2012
 
Sherlayne wrote:
<quoted text>
It's wonderful and I've believed this all along - the kids growing up today are being educated enough to erase the hate towards people who are different from them. I bet the old-time believers HATE that - good for them! I'm so glad you posted that. Intelligence and education are winning :)
Amen my sister.

Good to see you again.........

“The Kingdom of God Begins NOW!”

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#10
Jul 25, 2012
 
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, I could post the other six, but how sensible are the first six of Bishop Spong's Twelve Thesis?
LOL!

She gets it, you don't..........

“The Black Mermaid”

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Jul 25, 2012
 

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Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
Unless you're agnostic, how sensible are the first six of Bishop Spong's Twelve Thesis?
1. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.
2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.
3. The Biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.
4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ's divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.
5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.
6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed ...
... and there are six more where these came from.
Don't have time just now to answer all, but for one, I never believed in a Virgin Birth - that belief is a very old, pagan one.

A little more - we cannot assign a "personality" to God. it is impossible for mortals to really know Him. We can THINK we do, that's all.

It is also impossible for anyone to know what, if anything, happens to us after we die; we want to believe we go on, I want to believe that also, but the reality is nobody knows. Sad, but possible that we become the nothingness we were before we were born. If you can convince me, even a little, that there's more to life than right now, I'd be very happy. No matter what you say, I will at least listen to you.

How does one "find God"? In a collection of old writings by mostly unknown authors? "Inspired" is an extremely vague term and totally subjective, so that doesn't convince me, sorry. I wish it did.

I've never claimed I'm right...what I'm saying is I don't know. How can anybody be so sure of what happens once we're dead? Can you give some realistic answers? I promise you I'll at least listen.

I'm NOT arguing with you - I just want to know what's REAL.

“... truth will out.”

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#12
Jul 25, 2012
 

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Sherlayne wrote:
How does one "find God"? In a collection of old writings by mostly unknown authors?...
The vast majority of the "old" New Testament was written by known authors.

“The Black Mermaid”

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Jul 25, 2012
 

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Joe DeCaro wrote:
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The vast majority of the "old" New Testament was written by known authors.
Well, if that's true, I'm glad to hear that. What about the N.T.? It's known that names were borrowed for clout.

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#14
Jul 25, 2012
 
Sherlayne wrote:
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Well, if that's true, I'm glad to hear that. What about the N.T.? It's known that names were borrowed for clout.
Are you referring to the canonical NT or the Apocryphal NT, Sherlayne?

“The Black Mermaid”

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#15
Jul 25, 2012
 
Admiral Kolchak wrote:
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Are you referring to the canonical NT or the Apocryphal NT, Sherlayne?
Not the apocrpyha, no.

“... truth will out.”

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#16
Jul 26, 2012
 

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Sherlayne wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, if that's true, I'm glad to hear that. What about the N.T.? It's known that names were borrowed for clout.
You're confusing the NT with the Apocrypha, which are writings of dubious authority, so the authors "borrowed" it.

There wasn't copyright laws in those days.

“The Kingdom of God Begins NOW!”

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Jul 26, 2012
 

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Sherlayne wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, if that's true, I'm glad to hear that. What about the N.T.? It's known that names were borrowed for clout.
Correct.

First of all Mark is not an Apostle. Some claim Peter taught him but this is doubtful due to the language used.- wrong time frame.

The Gospel of Matthew was first written in Hebrew, as we have found writings predating the Greek version. Doubtful if written by the Apostle, again due to the language used. This was a hindsight writing.

Next we have the Greek Luke - never an Apostle, never knew Jesus.

Finally we have the Greek John, not an Apostle but a Greek follower of Philo and the Logo theology.

You are correct, not one Apostle wrote a Gospel, at least not among the canon writings....

“Ecce! Sic transit gloria mundi”

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#18
Jul 26, 2012
 

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Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
The vast majority of the "old" New Testament was written by known authors.
LOL - Provide evidence as to you wrote Job or which of the two possible writers of Isaiah is the real one. Who wrote Proverbs or Judges?

“... truth will out.”

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Jul 26, 2012
 

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T McCabe wrote:
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LOL - Provide evidence as to you wrote Job or which of the two possible writers of Isaiah is the real one. Who wrote Proverbs or Judges?
Last time I looked, all these books were under the Old, not the New Testament.

“... truth will out.”

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#21
Jul 26, 2012
 

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MiddleWay wrote:
You are correct, not one Apostle wrote a Gospel, at least not among the canon writings....
So Matthew, and even John -- the apostle whom Jesus loved -- weren't really Apostles?

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