Does religion make you dumb, or are d...

Does religion make you dumb, or are dumb people religious?

Posted in the Christian Forum

First Prev
of 4
Next Last

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#1 Mar 27, 2009
Richard Dawkins, in his book "The God Delusion," cites an article in MENSA magazine in which 43 studies regarding intelligence/education and religiosity are analyzed, and, in all but 4 of those studies, an inverse relationship between religiosity and intelligence/education was the conclusion.

The United States continues to backslide intellectually and educationally, with bumper sticker slogan politics, battles over evolution, and megachurches dotting the landscape. Meanwhile, European countries are making quantum leaps past us, and even some Third World nations are surpassing us educationally.

The United States has the highest proportion of citizens believing in a supreme being, at over 70% of the population, which is head and shoulders higher than any European country (The Vatican notwithstanding).

COINCIDENCE?

I think not.

“Facts exist, even when ignored”

Since: Feb 07

Somewhere in Indiana

#3 Mar 27, 2009
I am curious. Where did these studies take place? Were they double blind studies of random people off the streets, or did they go to certain religious institutions, then certain educational institutions? Any study not done in a double blind manner, is suspect in it's results.

What was the standard by which they judged intelligence? Is intelligence only quantifiable by using mathematical, scientific and logical problems? That in itself is a matter of debate as well.

Now, before you jump on me, I will not argue that there are more "non believers" in the scientific community than there are believers, but is this due to intelligence, or surroundings? Nature or nurture?

Didn't even Dawkins himself rate himself as a "2" on his "belief scale", stating that it would be foolish and illogical for anyone to be a "1" since they would be arrogantly stating that there is undeniably no God?

Do I think too many Christians blindly follow their faith so much that they foolishly exclude anything scientific from their lives? Oh yes! A LOT of Christians need to get their heads out of the sand, however, I disagree with the conclusion that this would make them non believers. For me it has made me a knowledgeable believer.

Personally, I love the scientific world, and see His creation in all of science. I LOVE thinking of God in relation to quantum mechanics, especially the Copenhagen interpretation and the "observer effect".
stupic

AOL

#4 Mar 27, 2009
Ian wrote:
Keeping people dumb makes them easier to control in the medium term but it will adversely affect productivity in the long term.
But in the very short term it's chaos.

“Facts exist, even when ignored”

Since: Feb 07

Somewhere in Indiana

#6 Mar 27, 2009
Ian wrote:
Nope. Dawkins is a 6. I once heard him call himself a 6.9.
<quoted text>
Then I got the scale backwards, sorry. Even a 6.9 means he is not so arrogant as to not leave SOME small possibility.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#7 Mar 27, 2009
Roadie wrote:
<quoted text>
Then I got the scale backwards, sorry. Even a 6.9 means he is not so arrogant as to not leave SOME small possibility.
Not to leave the possibility, but because proving a negative is impossible. He's not intellectually dishonest, nor does he claim to know anything more than is knowable.
Wayne

United States

#8 Mar 27, 2009
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
Not to leave the possibility, but because proving a negative is impossible. He's not intellectually dishonest, nor does he claim to know anything more than is knowable.
He's an arrogant little twerp.
Light Sensitive

Mount Vernon, NY

#9 Mar 27, 2009
Roadie wrote:
I am curious. Where did these studies take place? Were they double blind studies of random people off the streets, or did they go to certain religious institutions, then certain educational institutions? Any study not done in a double blind manner, is suspect in it's results.
What was the standard by which they judged intelligence? Is intelligence only quantifiable by using mathematical, scientific and logical problems? That in itself is a matter of debate as well.
Now, before you jump on me, I will not argue that there are more "non believers" in the scientific community than there are believers, but is this due to intelligence, or surroundings? Nature or nurture?
Didn't even Dawkins himself rate himself as a "2" on his "belief scale", stating that it would be foolish and illogical for anyone to be a "1" since they would be arrogantly stating that there is undeniably no God?
Do I think too many Christians blindly follow their faith so much that they foolishly exclude anything scientific from their lives? Oh yes! A LOT of Christians need to get their heads out of the sand, however, I disagree with the conclusion that this would make them non believers. For me it has made me a knowledgeable believer.
Personally, I love the scientific world, and see His creation in all of science. I LOVE thinking of God in relation to quantum mechanics, especially the Copenhagen interpretation and the "observer effect".
he uses a 7pt scale. 1 = absolute belief, 7= pure atheism, no god at all. Dawkins placed himself at a 6.5 I seem to recall. a high level agnostic. been awhile since I read the book.

not sure, but statistics (quantitative) such as this dont have to be double-blind...
Pray to Zeus

Bradenton, FL

#10 Mar 27, 2009
Roadie wrote:
<quoted text>
Then I got the scale backwards, sorry. Even a 6.9 means he is not so arrogant as to not leave SOME small possibility.
There is more probability that Goldilocks and the 3 bears is a real story. After all, both blond girls and bears (unlike god) have been proven to exist.

If you believe in "God" then why not the Plutonian teapot or the flying spaghetti monster. Wouldn't it be arrogant to rule them out as impossible also? There is a small possiblity that god exists, and an equal possiblity for the teapot and FSM. I'd put that around 0.00000000000000 or less for god. The chances for a teapot or spaghetti are significantly higher, and I have both a teapot and spaghetti to prove it.
Pray to Zeus

Bradenton, FL

#11 Mar 27, 2009
Wayne wrote:
<quoted text>
He's an arrogant little twerp.
Well said Wayne. It's hard to find better words to describe YOU.
Adin

United States

#13 Mar 27, 2009
you can be both smart and faithful.
however the schools are basicly atheist training camps. To say the truth these prosessors have no idea if God exists or not. Science can not prove that any God does not exist. So in my point of view science is my way of understanding in some small part the creations of the universe that God has created. You may disagree with me and you have every right, but remember if there is no higher power no soul than all we are is chemicle reactions with no free will or power to think independintly from a predetermined path.
If that is the case, than the debate is worthless.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#14 Mar 28, 2009
Wayne wrote:
<quoted text>
He's an arrogant little twerp.
Irrelevant.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#15 Mar 28, 2009
Adin wrote:
you can be both smart and faithful.
however the schools are basicly atheist training camps. To say the truth these prosessors have no idea if God exists or not. Science can not prove that any God does not exist. So in my point of view science is my way of understanding in some small part the creations of the universe that God has created. You may disagree with me and you have every right, but remember if there is no higher power no soul than all we are is chemicle reactions with no free will or power to think independintly from a predetermined path.
If that is the case, than the debate is worthless.
Prove that the absence of a God necessarily means a lack of free will or independent thought.

Ironically, religion encourages groupthink and obedience. Without such precepts, religion loses its ability to function.

“so tell me......”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#16 Mar 28, 2009
Dumb:

Unable to speak. Inarticulate.Having no voice in government etc.Silenced by surprise, shyness etc.

Considering how many times we are told we should be quiet about our faith I don't think we can be considered dumb.

“TZADDI”

Since: Jun 08

Ithaca, NY

#17 Mar 28, 2009
LowellGuy wrote:
Richard Dawkins, in his book "The God Delusion," cites an article in MENSA magazine in which 43 studies regarding intelligence/education and religiosity are analyzed, and, in all but 4 of those studies, an inverse relationship between religiosity and intelligence/education was the conclusion.
The United States continues to backslide intellectually and educationally, with bumper sticker slogan politics, battles over evolution, and megachurches dotting the landscape. Meanwhile, European countries are making quantum leaps past us, and even some Third World nations are surpassing us educationally.
The United States has the highest proportion of citizens believing in a supreme being, at over 70% of the population, which is head and shoulders higher than any European country (The Vatican notwithstanding).
COINCIDENCE?
I think not.
I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers, and it was not there; in her fertile fields and boundless prairies, and it was not there; in her rich mines and her vast world commerce, and it was not there. Not until I went to the churches of America and heard her pulpits aflame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because America is good. If America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great[Alexis De Tocqueville]. Do you think Dawkins could use the same logic concerning those that forged the U.S. Constitution[those who would be a one[1] on your aforementioned scale]? A person not very dumb would certainly think not. There is a vast difference when comparing young America[and Americans] with America[and Americans] of today: History always repeats itself and with time, human nature and the disconcertion of priorities leads a people that once knew God away from Him. All walks of life have the dumb[whether they be religious or non-religious]. When anti-God thought[which was not the norm at the Nation's beginning] becomes a norm in all forms of education, jurisprudence, and government, that Nation is Back-slidden, period.

“TZADDI”

Since: Jun 08

Ithaca, NY

#18 Mar 28, 2009
Light Sensitive wrote:
<quoted text>
he uses a 7pt scale. 1 = absolute belief, 7= pure atheism, no god at all. Dawkins placed himself at a 6.5 I seem to recall. a high level agnostic. been awhile since I read the book.
not sure, but statistics (quantitative) such as this dont have to be double-blind...
Yes, I agree; he is highly agnostic[without knowledge].

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#19 Mar 29, 2009
aesthetic wrote:
<quoted text>I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors and her ample rivers, and it was not there; in her fertile fields and boundless prairies, and it was not there; in her rich mines and her vast world commerce, and it was not there. Not until I went to the churches of America and heard her pulpits aflame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power. America is great because America is good. If America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great[Alexis De Tocqueville]. Do you think Dawkins could use the same logic concerning those that forged the U.S. Constitution[those who would be a one[1] on your aforementioned scale]? A person not very dumb would certainly think not.
What logic? I saw a man's emotional response to the world and people around him. Since when is emotion logic?

And there, friends, is the crux of the issue.

“TZADDI”

Since: Jun 08

United States

#20 Mar 29, 2009
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
What logic? I saw a man's emotional response to the world and people around him. Since when is emotion logic?
And there, friends, is the crux of the issue.
No, I do not agree with you; obviously you've not read his two volumes of Democracy in America. I saw a man's keen ability to perceive truths that others[for various reasons] seem to have trouble grasping.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#21 Mar 29, 2009
That quote, and, presumably the rest of his writings, are basically saying that natural resources are only as good/useful/worthwhile as the people who make use of them. That's as keen an observation as "a scalpel is only as lifesaving as the hand holding it." Money and the physical environment don't have spiritual value, and that's what De Tocqueville is talking about there. To read more into it is simply extrapolating based on emotion.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#22 Mar 29, 2009
I have seen Dawkins go into a long winded tirade about the God he despise yet says does not exist. Dawkins is an unstable person with severe issues. Why some people worship him is beyond me.

1noteasilyfooled

“Fundie SMACKER..”

Since: Mar 08

Sunshine city, St Petersburg

#23 Mar 29, 2009
N2shotokai wrote:
I have seen Dawkins go into a long winded tirade about the God he despise yet says does not exist. Dawkins is an unstable person with severe issues. Why some people worship him is beyond me.
I have seen Nephie go into a long winded tirade about the posters he despise yet says does not exist. Nephie is an unstable person with severe issues. Why some people listen to him is beyond me.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker
First Prev
of 4
Next Last

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Christian Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
TOPIX Christian Forum Declared DEAD! 38 min ROG 1
StanStretching Exercise to Loosen Tight Back Mu... 7 hr AlertChristians 1
Romans 3:23 - Rewritten as a Doctrine of Demons 12 hr AlertChristians 1
Two Ways You Too Can Determine Someone is a Rep... 13 hr AlertChristians 1
Pornography and Masturbation - Playing with Ete... 20 hr Xcaliber 5
Spiritual Warfare - Luke 10:19 - You Have Autho... 21 hr AlertChristians 1
Do Not be Conformed to This World - Porn, Mastu... 21 hr Xcaliber 2
More from around the web