All of us could be wrong about our be...
Frank

Clinton, NC

#21 Feb 19, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Honestly Frank you're splitting hairs here. You can act like Mohammed didnt get a prophecy correct (if he actually said what you said he did) just because men ACTIVELY pursued what he said, but then the same could be said about Moses right? Do you ask yourself that question? "The direct work of G-d or the work of men?" I doubt it because you just told me Moses was a true prophet. So I'll bring up this again:
Deuteronomy 13
If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Mohammed made a prophecy that came to pass. So what? He (at least I think he did) led to other gods that my forefathers never knew. Therefore I account him as a false prophet though I know they are major similarities between the God of Abraham and whoever Mohammed was worshiping. The differences though I cannot ignore. But as I said, if you have a problem with men ACTIVELY fulfilling what Mohammed said, then you should have a problem with Israel ACTIVELY fulfilling what Moses said right? Thats being fair without bias right?
Exactly, I have a problem with modern day Israel, I believe that its an abomination perpetuated by men, not the biblical restoration spoken of in scripture, no different than how xtians and muslims have taken it upon themselves to intentionally fulfill prophecies. Thats what I've been telling you all along.

As for muslims, most "jewish" "rabbis"--though they tend to dislike or hate muslims and disbelieve in the Quraan--consider them to be monotheists and worshippers of the same G-d, believe it or not, while many consider xtianity to be idolatery, avodah zarah.

Go figure.

But anyways, I think that this is an interesting topic.

If I read something in the Tanakh and me and a group of guys make it happen, is it the actual fulfillment of prophecy or us simply using scripture as a guide and making it a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy? Very interesting.

So basically what you're saying is that, yes, me and a group of guys making things written in the bible happen is the fulfillment of divine prophecy, whereas a group of practictioners of another religion doing the very same thing isn't the fulfillment of divine prophecy.
Flygerian

Duncan, OK

#22 Feb 19, 2013
Frank wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly, I have a problem with modern day Israel, I believe that its an abomination perpetuated by men, not the biblical restoration spoken of in scripture, no different than how xtians and muslims have taken it upon themselves to intentionally fulfill prophecies. Thats what I've been telling you all along.
As for muslims, most "jewish" "rabbis"--though they tend to dislike or hate muslims and disbelieve in the Quraan--consider them to be monotheists and worshippers of the same G-d, believe it or not, while many consider xtianity to be idolatery, avodah zarah.
Go figure.
But anyways, I think that this is an interesting topic.
If I read something in the Tanakh and me and a group of guys make it happen, is it the actual fulfillment of prophecy or us simply using scripture as a guide and making it a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy? Very interesting.
So basically what you're saying is that, yes, me and a group of guys making things written in the bible happen is the fulfillment of divine prophecy, whereas a group of practictioners of another religion doing the very same thing isn't the fulfillment of divine prophecy.
I dont care what rabbis say. The fact is that the Muhammed came and added/took away things that no one was supposed to. He spoke commands that the God of Abraham never instituted. If he was a prophet, you might as well throw away the Torah and follow his commandments. Because thats what muslims do right?

What could you go out and fulfill with ease? Please let me know.

Yes people purposely fulfilling prophecy is fulfilling it. So can you ACUTALLY RESPOND TO WHAT IM SAYING? Did the Israelites not PURPOSELY FULFILL Moses' prophecy? Because Moses made a prophecy to Israel, than the men of Israel went and tried to fulfill it and succeeded. In the same token, Mohammed made a prophecy than some people later went and tried to fulfill it and succeeded. Now what is the difference? I dont see it.

Well scratch that I do see a difference. One made a prophecy in the name of the God of Israel, the other, Allah. Are they the same? Some say so. The commands that both make says otherwise though. But can you let me know the difference between my Moses/Israel example and the Mohammed one you made?
Frank

Clinton, NC

#23 Feb 19, 2013
So following/implementing biblical plans are the fulfillment of prophecy? Okay.
IamHim

Duncan, OK

#24 Feb 19, 2013
Frank wrote:
So following/implementing biblical plans are the fulfillment of prophecy? Okay.
Still avoiding questions Frank? tis tisk tistk lol
IamHim wrote:
But can you let me know the difference between my Moses/Israel example and the Mohammed one you made?
What is the difference between Israel PURPOSELY FULFILLING Moses' prophecy and the muslims PURPOSLEY FULFILLING Mohammed's prophecy?
Frank

Holly Springs, NC

#25 Feb 20, 2013
Not avoiding questions at all, it doesn't require an answer, what you're getting at is obvious.

According to you, intentionally doing things to make stuff mentioned in the bible constitutes the fulfillment of prophecy.

So then I suppose that those moronic xtians whom intentionally fly to Israel to pick grapes in order fulfill the prophecy of "foreigners shall be your vine dressers" are also fulfilling prophecy, huh?

Hey, prophecy is easy. Check this out, I too am a prophet:

"I call to the G-d of Israel, and one day there shall be a female president in the USA, and one day there shall also be a Latino president in USA"
Frank

Holly Springs, NC

#26 Feb 20, 2013
Re: Intentionally picking grapes in order to fulfill prophecy

&no redirect=1

Wow, its a miracle! Some xtians read the book of Isaiah and decided to intentionally make a prophecy happen!

lol
Lordofnuts

Concord, NC

#27 Feb 20, 2013
Frank wrote:
<quoted text>
Those are your interpretations of scripture whereas I'm talking about what scripture plainly says, okay?
I'm well aware of whatever "evidence" you could provide in support of your positions and there are numerous reasons (biblical reasons) for why millions of people believe otherwise.
Heck, there's even sufficient evidence for rejecting Yeshuah altogether("jews" make a pretty good case for that using the Torah) even though I accept Yeshuah.
I've looked at both sides objectively (free from bias) and the evidence is on the side of those whom believe differently from you.
No where does "G-d's word" clearly say that Yeshuah is G-d and there are WAAAAAAY too many reasons to disbelieve in Paul.
And if you believe that every word in the bible is literally "G-d's word" then I'd have to conclude that your retarded.(no offense meant, btw).
There ya go.
You leave me no choice but to put you in the running for the smartest theist on Topix. You may have a shot at the funniest also but delusion often causes more unintentional entertainment!

"Your retarded (no offence btw)" [sic] LMAO That is priceless!
Lordofnuts

United States

#28 Feb 20, 2013
Frank wrote:
Re: Intentionally picking grapes in order to fulfill prophecy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =TlTOxCWs_ggXX&noredirect= 1
Wow, its a miracle! Some xtians read the book of Isaiah and decided to intentionally make a prophecy happen!
lol
That fool has been picking grapes for 6 years! Now he is stuck and will die there picking grapes. He can't stop or the self fulfilling Scripture driven prophesy will be broken. There is zero chance of a mythical bible god floating down from the sky no matter how many grapes they pick but can't beat free holy labor!

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."- Edward Gibbon
Frank

Holly Springs, NC

#29 Feb 20, 2013
Yeah, the grape-picking thing blew my mind when I first heard about it.

In the one of the videos, it is explained that the goy grape pickers must deposit the grapes at the door of the building in which the wine is made so as not to defile it and make it un-kosher (they are not allowed to enter that particular building)

I'm not so sure that wealthy western xtians flying into Israel to pick grapes is what the prophecy was talking about, lol.

Another interesting situation is that of the modern "Noahides", whom willingly accept upon themselves a position of inferiority and get treated like pets by the "Rabbis". They are frequently reminded of their inferior status due to some of the regulations that prohibit them from participating in many of the practices of the jews. And the modern Noahide religion is, quite literally, being made up as they go, constructed before their eyes by Rabbis but accepted as binding and from G-d.

But hey, each to their own.
Frank

Holly Springs, NC

#30 Feb 20, 2013
Here's a latino guy whom converted to Judaism and became a "Rabbi".

I actually like this guy, he draws alot of controversy and condemnation though because he's been seeking converts/converting people to Judaism similiar to how xtians seek converts to xtianity, and then he also makes controversial videos such as this one: "The Noahide scam".

IamHim

Duncan, OK

#31 Feb 20, 2013
Frank wrote:
Not avoiding questions at all, it doesn't require an answer, what you're getting at is obvious.
According to you, intentionally doing things to make stuff mentioned in the bible constitutes the fulfillment of prophecy.
So then I suppose that those moronic xtians whom intentionally fly to Israel to pick grapes in order fulfill the prophecy of "foreigners shall be your vine dressers" are also fulfilling prophecy, huh?
Hey, prophecy is easy. Check this out, I too am a prophet:
"I call to the G-d of Israel, and one day there shall be a female president in the USA, and one day there shall also be a Latino president in USA"
If you're words do not come to pass you are a false prophet. Besides this nation will fall eventually so you'll be wrong in one of your "prophecies"

About 5 months after I originally asked you questions about the doctrines the "black Hebrew Israelites" were brainwashing you with (and after you ignored me) and you're still ignoring questions? Here I'll ask again

"What is the difference between Moses prophesying and ISRAEL PURPOSELY FULFILLING IT and Mohammed prophesying and the MUSLIMS PURPOSELY FULFILLING IT? Why are you accepting one over the other?
IamHim

Duncan, OK

#32 Feb 20, 2013
Frank wrote:
Re: Intentionally picking grapes in order to fulfill prophecy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =TlTOxCWs_ggXX&noredirect= 1
Wow, its a miracle! Some xtians read the book of Isaiah and decided to intentionally make a prophecy happen!
lol
Just like Israel purposely fulfilled Moses' prophesy in taking the land that was promised to them thru Abraham and Moses right? So you have the same problem with what Israel did in the bible after Moses' died (and really before since they got started while Moses was alive) in taking the land that Moses PROPHESIED would happen?
IamHim

Duncan, OK

#33 Feb 20, 2013
But I see now. You're just gonna avoid the question over and over because it pokes a hole in your belief system. If it doesnt, just answer the question instead of waltzing around it lol
Frank

Holly Springs, NC

#34 Feb 20, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
If you're words do not come to pass you are a false prophet. Besides this nation will fall eventually so you'll be wrong in one of your "prophecies"
About 5 months after I originally asked you questions about the doctrines the "black Hebrew Israelites" were brainwashing you with (and after you ignored me) and you're still ignoring questions? Here I'll ask again
"What is the difference between Moses prophesying and ISRAEL PURPOSELY FULFILLING IT and Mohammed prophesying and the MUSLIMS PURPOSELY FULFILLING IT? Why are you accepting one over the other?
Flygeria, the ansswer is obvious, please stop with the "answer my questions" non-sense as it doesn't apply here--we both know the differences between them,

And yeah you're correct: this nation will eventually fail, probaly sooner than most think, however--rest assured--this country will most probaly see a woman and Latino president, which makes me a prophet I suppose because I stated it and its going to happen by the hands of men, because they want to see it happen (even though, of course, in this situation they are unaware of this prophecy of mine.)

And no need to go down the "lets debate BH doctrine", been there/done that. Our doctrine is as valid as any other as our methods of interpretation are as valid as any other, however--as I've pointed out in another thread--there are only several points of belief that I hold to with anything near certainty and everything else may or may not be true, and --in addition--I don't believe in everything that the so-called BH believe in, there are differences even amongst ourselves.

For example, some make the claim that Native Americans, Mexicans, Aboriginals in Austrailia, etc., are all Hebrews, lol.

And then some BH don't view whites as the devil but as gentiles.

And then some BH believe in the nt and others don't.

As for an accurate (and brief) explanation of my beliefs, see posts #56-57 in the Sabbath Keeper thread.

peace
Frank

Holly Springs, NC

#35 Feb 20, 2013
And no it doesn't poke a hole in my belief system because you can't prove me wrong...nor can I prove you wrong, either.

My belief that the true restoration of Israel shall come at the hand of a Messiah under the direct Guidance of G-d is as valid as your belief about Israel and is held by many others than myself, I didn't just make this up.

We're simply in two different camps when it comes to this issue and only G-d knows, we just speculate.

peace
IamHim

Oklahoma City, OK

#36 Feb 20, 2013
Frank wrote:
<quoted text>
Flygeria, the ansswer is obvious, please stop with the "answer my questions" non-sense as it doesn't apply here--we both know the differences between them,
And yeah you're correct: this nation will eventually fail, probaly sooner than most think, however--rest assured--this country will most probaly see a woman and Latino president, which makes me a prophet I suppose because I stated it and its going to happen by the hands of men, because they want to see it happen (even though, of course, in this situation they are unaware of this prophecy of mine.)
And no need to go down the "lets debate BH doctrine", been there/done that. Our doctrine is as valid as any other as our methods of interpretation are as valid as any other, however--as I've pointed out in another thread--there are only several points of belief that I hold to with anything near certainty and everything else may or may not be true, and --in addition--I don't believe in everything that the so-called BH believe in, there are differences even amongst ourselves.
For example, some make the claim that Native Americans, Mexicans, Aboriginals in Austrailia, etc., are all Hebrews, lol.
And then some BH don't view whites as the devil but as gentiles.
And then some BH believe in the nt and others don't.
As for an accurate (and brief) explanation of my beliefs, see posts #56-57 in the Sabbath Keeper thread.
peace
I didnt want to discuss your doctrine again. I wanted to at one point but you did as you're doing now. Avoided my questions. I see no point of discussing if you're going to avoid what I say or vice versa. Its like talking to a brick wall at that point.

And no (in regards to what we're discussing) I see no difference between Israel purposely fulfilling the prophesies of Moses and the Muslims PURPOSELY FULFILLING the prophesies of Mohammed. Mind explaining? I already explained that they are leading to two different gods so thats one thing. But thats not what we're discussing. You're discussing people purposely fulling prophecy so Im wondering whats the difference between the 2?

And you'll most likely be wrong but we'll see. If you are wrong (and remember you did bring God Almighty into your prophesy) than we know you're a false prophet. I dont think you realize how close this country is to falling off. We may not have decade after decade of the USA existing as it does. But time will tell all
IamHim

Oklahoma City, OK

#37 Feb 20, 2013
Frank wrote:
And no it doesn't poke a hole in my belief system because you can't prove me wrong...nor can I prove you wrong, either.
My belief that the true restoration of Israel shall come at the hand of a Messiah under the direct Guidance of G-d is as valid as your belief about Israel and is held by many others than myself, I didn't just make this up.
We're simply in two different camps when it comes to this issue and only G-d knows, we just speculate.
peace
I didnt say your belief on the messiah gathering Israel held no water (though that article you showed was wrong out of the first 9-10 scriptures it posted as proof of what you're saying). What I did say is that there is no difference between the Israel of the bible PURPOSELY fulfilling the prophecy of Moses and the Muslims PURPOSELY fulfilling the prophecy of Muhammed. You have not explained the difference. The only difference I see is that they are leading to two different gods. One is God Almighty the other is "allah" who may be the same or may not. I go with not but that doesnt matter in this discussion. What does matter is you explaining the difference between both PURPOSELY FULFILLING PROPHECY. And why you take one as valid but the other as not valid.
Frank

Holly Springs, NC

#38 Feb 20, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
I didnt say your belief on the messiah gathering Israel held no water (though that article you showed was wrong out of the first 9-10 scriptures it posted as proof of what you're saying). What I did say is that there is no difference between the Israel of the bible PURPOSELY fulfilling the prophecy of Moses and the Muslims PURPOSELY fulfilling the prophecy of Muhammed. You have not explained the difference. The only difference I see is that they are leading to two different gods. One is God Almighty the other is "allah" who may be the same or may not. I go with not but that doesnt matter in this discussion. What does matter is you explaining the difference between both PURPOSELY FULFILLING PROPHECY. And why you take one as valid but the other as not valid.
I'm not saying that either are valid or not valid.

There is no difference, its men intentionally fulfilling prophecy, like those xtians whom fly to Israel to pick grapes, lol.

Actually, the only difference is that one group is muslims and the other isn't.

I fully understand your point. Since all things happen by G-d, then it could be said that the intentional fulfilling of prophecy by men is by G-d...there ya go.

Or, it could be explained as a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy but not the authentic fulfillment of what G-d spoke of which shall come later by His direct Divine intervention.

I say modern day Israel--which isn't all of the land of Israel, is mostly secular, and has a mosque in the way of where the Temple shall be built--isn't it.

I say that the true restoration of Israel shall occur when/if the Messiah makes it happen, at which time the people will be governed by Torah and everything else that is supposed to happen will do so at that time. There will be world peace and everything shall be dandy.

The end.

Only G-d knows.
IamHim

Oklahoma City, OK

#39 Feb 20, 2013
Frank wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not saying that either are valid or not valid.
There is no difference, its men intentionally fulfilling prophecy, like those xtians whom fly to Israel to pick grapes, lol.
Actually, the only difference is that one group is muslims and the other isn't.
This is what I was looking for. There is NO DIFFERENCE between Israel purposely fulfilling Moses' prophecy (IN THE BIBLE) and the Muslims doing the same with Mohammed's prophecy.
Frank wrote:
I fully understand your point. Since all things happen by G-d, then it could be said that the intentional fulfilling of prophecy by men is by G-d...there ya go.
This is how I see it since scripture doesnt mention a "fake" Israel arising and taking the place of the "real" Israel
Frank wrote:
Or, it could be explained as a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy but not the authentic fulfillment of what G-d spoke of which shall come later by His direct Divine intervention.
True that.
Frank wrote:
I say modern day Israel--which isn't all of the land of Israel, is mostly secular, and has a mosque in the way of where the Temple shall be built--isn't it.
Thats why they're removing the palestinians as we speak. Though I believe the palestinians to be children of Abraham as well. Only the children of Israel have a RIGHT to the land if we believe the bible to God Almighty. So till they remove all those that do not belong and gather ALL those that belong, you'll have those pagan gods in the land. Soon they will be removed.
Frank wrote:
I say that the true restoration of Israel shall occur when/if the Messiah makes it happen, at which time the people will be governed by Torah and everything else that is supposed to happen will do so at that time. There will be world peace and everything shall be dandy.
The end.
Only G-d knows.
Sure. This is a belief. I think the Messiah is on earth and that he will finish what has been started. But as you said only One knows and in due time either side will be solidified. Because either the Israelites there will be removed for being false or MORE will be gathered to them.
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#40 Feb 20, 2013
IamHim wrote:
<quoted text>
So in your opinion men are Gods?
This is what makes you Believers look so foolish, these ridiculous leaps in "logic", and I use that word carefully.

Why would you make such a grand leap?

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