Science vs. Religion
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#2070 Oct 9, 2013
Big Al wrote:
1. <quoted text>
I think all of the fossil evidence, geological evidence and genetic evidence that existed before this new discovery was “conclusive” and that this new piece of evidence merely ads to it.
<quoted text>
Scientists begin with hypotheses (assumptions) and then gather evidence which either supports or contradicts the hypothesis. The fact that the fossil evidence supports the theory of evolution and not the biblical story of creation is not an assumption it is a rational conclusion based on the evidence.
"The fossil record of vertebrates unequivocally supports the hypothesis that vertebrates have evolved through time..." - Society of Vertebrate Paleontology
<quoted text>

2. How did you find out that there were 500 independent witnesses to the resurrection?

3. How did you find out that Jesus was buried by joseph of Arimathea?

4. How did you find that Jesus’ tomb was found empty by a group of his women followers.

5. The answer to all of those questions is the four gospels of the New Testament. The four gospels cannot be considered absolute factual history for many reasons not the least of which is that they are not “independent sources” and there is no relevant evidence outside the gospels to corroborate their fantastic stories.

“The gospels are not always independent of each other. There is a possibility that Matthew and Luke copied contents from Mark's gospel.”- Catherine M. Murphy, PH.D. Associate Professor of New Testament at Santa Clara University, she worked on the Dead Sea Scrolls publication team. She has traveled frequently to Israel, Greece, Turkey, and Europe
Although there is no factual evidence to support the authorship of any of the four gospels only two of the four are even alleged to have been written by eye witnesses to any of the events described.
1. But is that particular find conclusive? The suspicion that could be aroused is that if there are a number of inclusive finds, adding them up wouldn't make them conclusive. And adding an inconclusive find to a number of conclusive finds wouldn't make the conclusive finds 'more' conclusive.

2. F. F. Bruce, Rylands professor of biblical criticism and exegesis at the University of Manchester, says concerning the value of the New Testament records as primary sources: "Had there been any tendency to depart from the facts in any material respect, the possible presence of hostile witnesses in the audience would have served as a further corrective."

3. The various letters from the apostle Paul, independent of the 4 Gospels as well as the Gospel of Peter, which of course is independent of the Bible.

4. 1 Corinthians, independent of the 4 Gospels.

5. I wouldn't put much trust in someone who wrote a book for the ".....for dummies" series ("Historical Jesus For Dummies").
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#2071 Oct 9, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Thomas Paine had “a rational belief for a creator” he did not speculate on either the nature of the creator or how the creator may have created.

2. I’m sure he would have told you that to whether or not the creator created by supernatural means is pure speculation not a rational conclusion.
1. How do you know what Thomas Paine speculated? How do you know whether or not Thomas Paine considered either possibilities (natural, supernatural).

2. For one, that's merely speculation on your part.

In addition, your sentence doesn't seem to make sense. You seem to be presenting a question as a conclusion. If I were able to ask Thomas Paine if he thought God created the universe by natural means, or supernatural, he would have to answer choosing one, or just stating he didn't know. He can't consider me irrational for asking him the question. Which one is irrational? A natural creation or supernatural? You can't just say "I’m sure he would have told you that to whether or not the creator created by supernatural means is pure speculation not a rational conclusion".

It's not a conclusion. It's a question between 2 possibilities.
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#2072 Oct 9, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
1. I will repeat...
Thomas Paine had “a rational belief for a creator” he did not speculate on either the nature of the creator or how the creator may have created. I’m sure he would have told you that whether or not the creator created by supernatural means is pure speculation not a rational conclusion.

2. As an agnostic I do not discount the possibility of a supernatural "God".

3. The reason I don't dismiss the possibility of a "God" as proposed by Thomas Paine is that he doesn't pretend to know all about what his "God" likes and dislikes, did do and how he did it and will do or won't do. There is no rational basis for knowing all of that about "God".
I think Albert Einstein (a proven good rational thinker) who also considered himself to be an agnostic was correct in saying...
"We know nothing about [God, the world] at all.Possibly we shall know a little more than we do now....The important thing is not to stop questioning."
1. And again, how do you know that he didn't speculate on how the universe was created? His thoughts were not limited to historical quotation marks.

2. Do you think that if the creator created us via the supernatural that it could have an effect on the theory of evolution? In other words, some theories proposed based on natural explanation may be incorrect due to supernatural intervention?

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#2073 Oct 9, 2013
lol wrote:
<quoted text>
The proof of my God is YOU, you moron. YOU are prophesied of as a mocking and pitiful human being. You deny the Man, and God, Jesus Christ. The Man-God Who lived and breathed and walked among His creation more than TWO THOUSAND YEARS ago and is STILL making punks like YOU see red. lol Can't you see you are a FOOL for calling Him a fairy tale? He is STILL pricking your conscience and making you a ranting lunatic. lol
That doesn't prove God exists. All that proves is the Biblical scribes knew people would call you ignorant drizzlesticks so they included that loophole in more than a few places.

God bless you.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#2074 Oct 9, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
1. We all know that there are theistic evolutionists in the 'general' or "average human being" sense. As Jerry R. Bergman, a former atheist evolutionist put it; evolutionists humored these people. But actual scientists is a different matter. Can you name me 10 (which even still wouldn't account for "many" as you put it) that believe in a supernatural creator? And this would have to basically involve not someone from a divinity school, as there are atheists in divinity schools, ordained ministers, etc.
2. And how do you know that he believes in a supernatural creator?
<quoted text>
http://jonathan-dudley.com/
Did you know that there are atheist Christians? Those who believe that one can follow the moral principles of Jesus Christ, the Gospel without believing in God?
3. Sure they can. They can prove that a lightning bolt is not a spear chucked by a deity. They "cannot", that is to say, "cannot" prove that a God existing/working outside of natural law doesn't exist.
4. But you seem to "know" for a "fact" that there is no Heaven or Hell.
Ten? not off the tip of my tongue. Dr. O and Dr. M must remain anonymous because they are personal friends.

We can name Francis Collins, Evangelical Christian and Director of the National Institute of Health.

God of the Gaps, trying to insert god into some aspect of human experience that is not necessarily a good fit.

Irreducible complexity is "not all that irreducible.

One argument is evidence for design that we see around us in living things, and this carried a lot of weight before Darwin came along, but it is not an argument that is, in the context of the correctness of evolution, a good way to convince anybody of God as the specific creator of this or that phenomenon.
-- http://www.closertotruth.com/video-profile/Fa...

God bless you.
feces for jesus

Thiells, NY

#2075 Oct 9, 2013
lol wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't threaten, you moron. The God you do not believe in but PRETEND you do, does that well enough on His own.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew says Gehenna you Pathetic, lying cripple.

dollarsbill

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#2076 Oct 9, 2013
feces for jesus wrote:
<quoted text>
Matthew says Gehenna you Pathetic, lying cripple.
When you are burning in Hell you will understand.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#2077 Oct 9, 2013
lol wrote:
<quoted text>
And you can't prove there IS no God. None of you can.
Duh! Stupid response. The final and last frustrated, spittle flying reply.

I dont have to disprove what you can't prove exists.

What a goofball you are.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#2078 Oct 9, 2013
lol wrote:
<quoted text>
None that you will accept you mean. The only proof you will accept is when the Lord returns. Then, it is to late and you and all the sneering, arrogant atheists will burn. Do with it what you will.
No there are few things I would accept as proof.

BTW, your personal proof is never gonna qualify as anyone else's.
Have you not figured that out yet? Are you really that ignorant that you cant figure that out?
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#2079 Oct 9, 2013
lol wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't threaten, you moron. The God you do not believe in but PRETEND you do, does that well enough on His own.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Yes you DO threaten people. Face it, its the SOP of the avg American Fundy Xtian.

Plus you do the thinking and work of your God, like usual. Like usual this God of yours is going to do what YOU say, always he's going to act precisely as YOU say he will. LOL! Because in reality he's all in your head! Your Personal God is a personal invention!
So he performs like a little puppet - but only in your own personal theater!

LOL! You are a lot of fun...in a weird way...
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#2080 Oct 9, 2013
lol wrote:
<quoted text>
Show you evidence that teachers actually couldn't care less about your pet "theory" and you go off on a self centered tantrum. lol Typical atheist.
You are funny. Yes, you showed me evidence that alleged professionals who bothered to go to school to become professional teachers have decided to not do their jobs! That some don't care about the curriculum says NOTHING about the content of that curriculum. You and those dumbclucks on that website are as stupid as stupid comes that you would rely on such a specious argument. State a quasi-fact, followed by a specious opinion based on a completely different subject. Like a snake-oil salesman, like one of those QVC diet shills and their magic potions.

Imagine if a math teacher didnt teach math, but taught some made up stuff? Or a driving instructor decided to teach how to pilot a helicopter to his High School driver-ed students?

And why dont you ask another obvious Q. Are these Creationist teachers teaching the correct and proper version of Creationism? What if its not really strict to the Genesis story? What if its not even linked to Genesis, but some other faith? Or OMG! Its like all New Age and stuff..! Or far worse - from a Catholic POV! Aaaahh!

Oh right, duh! You never thought about that did you...? Of course not because like a dog with an electric collar you cant go past a close boundary in your thinking. As long as you see words like Creationist/ism, Intelligent Design, etc - you get a woody and support it no matter what.

Your ability to think things thru is like that of a Goldfish figuring a good way out of its bowl. A basic waste of time and certain to end badly if it escapes.
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#2081 Oct 9, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
1. We all know that there are theistic evolutionists in the 'general' or "average human being" sense. As Jerry R. Bergman, a former atheist evolutionist put it; evolutionists humored these people. But actual scientists is a different matter. Can you name me 10 (which even still wouldn't account for "many" as you put it) that believe in a supernatural creator? And this would have to basically involve not someone from a divinity school, as there are atheists in divinity schools, ordained ministers, etc.
You’ll have to explain to me why you think an Atheist would want to attend a divinity school. Here’s a quote from a person that has studied both religion and science for many years.
“Many Berea College students are exposed to a negative view of evolution in their churches. They are taught that evolution is contrary to the Bible, that they cannot believe in both God and evolution, that evolution is an atheistic philosophy, and, sometimes, that evolution is an invention of the devil.…A significant number of scientists from all Christian traditions are among those who advance the research that every year more firmly grounds evolution as a valid scientific way of understanding the history of life.”- Robert J. Schneider Ph.D., thirty-two years on the faculty of Berea (Christian) College (its motto ”God has made of one blood all peoples of the Earth”), taught courses in biblical literature, the history of Christian thought, the history of science, classical mythology
Job wrote:
2. And how do you know that he believes in a supernatural creator?
<quoted text>
http://jonathan-dudley.com/
The fact that he is an Evangelical leads me to believe that he believes in a supernatural “God”. I have never known of an Evangelical that believes in an impersonal creative natural force.
Job wrote:
Did you know that there are atheist Christians? Those who believe that one can follow the moral principles of Jesus Christ, the Gospel without believing in God?
Yes.
Job wrote:
3. Sure they can. They can prove that a lightning bolt is not a spear chucked by a deity. They "cannot", that is to say, "cannot" prove that a God existing/working outside of natural law doesn't exist.
They can prove that lightning bolts are not hurled by an angry supernatural “God” because they have discovered the natural cause of lightening. And you are correct when you say that at this point in time science has not discovered a natural cause for the existence of the universe. However if at some point in the future science does discover a natural cause for the universe your supernatural cause will no longer be a possibility.
Job wrote:
4. But you seem to "know" for a "fact" that there is no Heaven or Hell.
I as an agnostic I do not claim to know for a fact what happens to us after death. I wrote that we won’t know until after we die if there is anything left of us that can know things. I happen to “believe” that that the idea of a “God” that would create places of eternal bliss and punishment for his creations is childish.

It is you that claims to know for a fact that there is a heaven and a hell

dollarsbill

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#2083 Oct 9, 2013
satanlives wrote:
<quoted text>
still masturbating with your fairies in the sky, eh dollartard?
Your REPROBATE mind is attacking you.

Romans 1 God gave them over to a REPROBATE MIND.
lol

Welch, WV

#2084 Oct 9, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
What is it about the position of science teachers regarding evolution that you don't understand?
"The National Science Teachers Association (NSTA) strongly supports the position that evolution is a major unifying concept in science and should be emphasized in K–12 science education frameworks and curricula. Furthermore, if evolution is not taught, students will not achieve the level of scientific literacy needed to be well-informed citizens and prepared for college and STEM careers....NSTA recognizes that a century of political controversy has prevented evolution from being emphasized in science curricula in a manner commensurate with its importance. This political controversy has been accompanied by anti-evolution policies, the intimidation of science teachers...This pressure comes from overt advocacy of nonscientific views, such as “creation science,”“intelligent design,” or other forms of creationism...Science curricula, state science standards, and teachers should emphasize evolution in a manner commensurate with its importance as a unifying concept in science and its overall explanatory power." - National Science Teachers Association
You misunderstood. the NSTA gleefully pushes the hoax of evolution BUT...
NSTA recognizes that a century of political controversy has prevented evolution from being emphasized in science curricula in a manner commensurate with its importance.
Seems like the TEACHERS ACTUALLY in the classroom doesn't share in the NSTA's enthusiasm. Probably because they know better.
lol

Welch, WV

#2085 Oct 9, 2013
feces for jesus wrote:
<quoted text>
Matthew says Gehenna you Pathetic, lying cripple.
lol Look at the funny man,,calling himself shit. lol
lol

Welch, WV

#2086 Oct 9, 2013
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
The Bible is not God. Nobody and no thing is God but God so quit threatening me.
ps: I know you won't since it's all you've got.
God bless you.
The Bible is the WRITTEN Word of God and God CANNOT lie, you moronic fake.

ps; It's all I need, stupid.
lol

Welch, WV

#2087 Oct 9, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
Duh! Stupid response. The final and last frustrated, spittle flying reply.
I dont have to disprove what you can't prove exists.
What a goofball you are.
Yes you do. Unless you do you are no more than a stupid little troll.
lol

Welch, WV

#2088 Oct 9, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>No there are few things I would accept as proof.
BTW, your personal proof is never gonna qualify as anyone else's.
Have you not figured that out yet? Are you really that ignorant that you cant figure that out?
Well, what about the personal experiences of BILLIONS of other people? lol You and your other pathetic atheist friends are in a minority. All of you in a small little group and think you know more than the other 90% of the world.

lol How ignorant.
lol

Welch, WV

#2089 Oct 9, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text> Yes, you showed me evidence that alleged professionals who bothered to go to school to become professional teachers have decided to not do their jobs!
Yes, PROFESSIONALS, which is worlds more than I can say for you, you self centered tripe. lol You are funny in a stupid sort of way, you know that?

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#2090 Oct 9, 2013
lol wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, what about the personal experiences of BILLIONS of other people? lol You and your other pathetic atheist friends are in a minority. All of you in a small little group and think you know more than the other 90% of the world.
lol How ignorant.
You know of no 'personal experiences' but your own, and they're not evidence of anything.

By the way, you hate Catholics but it seems you'll jump in bed with them when it suits your corn pone prejudices.

It also seems you've jumped in bed with the Hindus and Moslems but it still comes nowhere near ninety percent of the world.

God bless you.

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