Science vs. Religion
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#954 Aug 28, 2013
Common Sense wrote:
<quoted text>
Job doesn't respond to what I post about 99% of the time if he has no plausible explanation with his biblical mind..He throws a smoke screen switching the subject to something else..I asked him a couple of pertinent questions about his biblical god and he doesn't answer them..His last post to me was "I take it you're a vegetarian" rather than answering my questions..That's an impossible atmosphere to debate in and he knows it..
A reasonable person can't debate with a deluded mind. Job is a young earth christian and that's as deluded as it gets IMHO..I've given up on him unless he starts addressing my posts to him..
<quoted text>
Welcome to the club. I couldn't possibly tell you how many questions I've asked here that have gone unanswered.

My take is that either they didn't see it, don't understand the questions, just can't relate so don't bother, etc. And often I let the questions go unless questions are continued to be demanded by me.

I personally think it's futile to press "too much" on certain things, because I know that the other party's thoughts are far from mine. I don't sweat it. And my guess is that if I post something that may make some sense to them, it's probably not the posts that I think 'would' make sense.

There's a bit of fun posting here, otherwise I wouldn't do it. But...I also don't ultimately expect people to see things my way. There going to continue to see things their way, just as I am.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#955 Aug 28, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>...God knew ahead of time what would happen as far as the fall; but also knew that 'redemption' would be provided so that many from His creation would live in eternity with Him...
If God knew that the Fall was inevitable, then Eve had no choice but to eat the forbidden fruit.

Since she had no choice (amplified by the fact that she had no knowledge of right and wrong until AFTER she ate the fruit that imparted that specific knowledge), then the fact that God punished her makes God a demon.

Providing redemption is a bogus move. Since God knew in advance what would happen, he must have planned it that way.

And since God knows in advance who is or isn't going to be redeemed, there is no free will. If God created all of us and if he knew what we would choose before he made us, then punishing or saving us based on something we have no control over is incredibly perverse and wicked.

Your God is a sham. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are shams, as they are all based on the concept of original Sin.

If you would simply take one step back and look at this with logic instead of blind faith, you'd see that I'm right.
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#956 Aug 28, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the Lamb and purge my heart by Thy Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of Thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in Thy fear, and dying in Thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy son, Jesus Christ.
- George Washington, Prayer
What did George Washington have to do to prove that he was a Christian? Place a bumper sticker on his horse and carriage reading "Know Jesus, Know Peace. No Jesus, No Peace"?{/QUOTE]
George Washington’s personal Prayer Journal is not authentic. It was found in a trunk owned by Lawrence Washington one of George’s descendants around 1890. Lawrence Washington took it to the Smithsonian and they concluded that it could not have belonged to George himself. It was auctioneer Stan Henkel who had it published as belonging to George Washington.

“Frank Grizzard is a senior editor of the George Washington Papers collection at the University of Virginia. I contacted him for my post in December 2004 about this document [Washington’s personal Prayer Journal] and he said in no uncertain terms that this document was neither written by nor associated with George Washington.”– Ed Brayton
[QUOTE who="Job"]2. Yes, correct.
3. "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.
What type of Christian was he referring to? Maybe he was referring to a Unitarian Christian that did not believe that Jesus was “God” and savior. Nowhere does it say that he believed Jesus was “God” and savior.
Job wrote:
"You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are."
Maybe a "fish symbol" on his horse and carriage?
4. I don't blame him. I think this quote sums things up pretty well:
This was his only reference to Jesus and not a profession of belief that Jesus was “God” and savior.
Job wrote:
Is it necessary that any one should certify, "General Washington avowed himself to me a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic, disinterested devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."
With sentiments of esteem,
I am, Nelly Custis-Lewi
Apparently the Christians of that day thought if necessary for Washington to certify his Christianity for as Thomas Jefferson wrote they penned their address “as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not”? It seems rather strange to me that the Christian contemporaries of Washington were not as sure of his Christianity as you are.
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#957 Aug 28, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the Lamb and purge my heart by Thy Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of Thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in Thy fear, and dying in Thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy son, Jesus Christ.
- George Washington, Prayer
What did George Washington have to do to prove that he was a Christian? Place a bumper sticker on his horse and carriage reading "Know Jesus, Know Peace. No Jesus, No Peace"?
George Washington’s personal Prayer Journal is not authentic. It was found in a trunk owned by Lawrence Washington one of George’s descendants around 1890. Lawrence Washington took it to the Smithsonian and they concluded that it could not have belonged to George himself. It was auctioneer Stan Henkel who had it published as belonging to George Washington.

“Frank Grizzard is a senior editor of the George Washington Papers collection at the University of Virginia. I contacted him for my post in December 2004 about this document [Washington’s personal Prayer Journal] and he said in no uncertain terms that this document was neither written by nor associated with George Washington.”– Ed Brayton
Job wrote:
2. Yes, correct.
3. "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.{/QUOTE]
What type of Christian was he referring to? Maybe he was referring to a Unitarian Christian that did not believe that Jesus was “God” and savior. Nowhere does it say that he believed Jesus was “God” and savior.
[QUOTE who="Job"]"You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are."
Maybe a "fish symbol" on his horse and carriage?
4. I don't blame him. I think this quote sums things up pretty well:
This was his only reference to Jesus and not a profession of belief that Jesus was “God” and savior.
Job wrote:
Is it necessary that any one should certify, "General Washington avowed himself to me a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic, disinterested devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."
With sentiments of esteem,
I am, Nelly Custis-Lewi
Apparently the Christians of that day thought if necessary for Washington to certify his Christianity for as Thomas Jefferson wrote they penned their address “as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not”? It seems rather strange to me that the Christian contemporaries of Washington were not as sure of his Christianity as you are.
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#958 Aug 28, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
Which is an ethno-nationalist conflict, not a doctrinal conflict. It's the pro British Unionist side (majority being Protestant), against the pro Irish Nationalist side (majority being Catholic).
So you actually believe Catholics and Protestants fighting about Catholics being discriminated against by the Protestant government is not a religious conflict?

“No Allah: know peace”

Since: Jun 07

A sacred grove in Tujunga, CA

#959 Aug 28, 2013
susanblange wrote:
<quoted text>God created Satan and the original covenant extends also to the gentiles. We were not created to do evil. Only the righteous meek will inherit the earth. God made the wicked for the day of evil and he knows all of our destiny. We all also have free will and it's possible to change Gods mind.
Cite book, chapter and verse that supports this...
susanblange

Norfolk, VA

#960 Aug 28, 2013
Liam R wrote:
<quoted text>
Cite book, chapter and verse that supports this...
Isaiah 49:6 "...I will also give you for a light to the Gentiles, that you may be my salvation unto the end of the earth". The rest is in there but offhand I don't know where.

Since: Dec 09

Chicago, IL

#961 Aug 28, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I can't claim to know for absolute sure what another person's devotion is. The ultimate issue concerning Hitler's alleged Christianity is not about 'objectivity' from those making the case that he 'was' a Christian. It's about maintaining 'absolutely' that Hitler was a Christian, and that someone like George Washington was absolutely 'not' a Christian. And the reason is extremely obvious.
If Hitler can be proven to be a Christian, then this furthers the notion that Christianity is evil. If George Washington (and various founding fathers) can be proven to not having been Christian, or even more absurd, a deist; then the idea of Christianity being a dark force can be further promoted.
As I mentioned twice in prior posts here in this thread, the general approach that Hitler is being violated concerning his profession of Christianity is matched by a violation of George Washington's profession of Christianity.
Do you recognize the problem here?
ALL Christians are Christians! It's just that many Christians prove not to be much of one.
The issue isn't whether a person IS or ISN'T a Christian.
The issue is whether a Christian is a TRUE Christian or not.
A TRUE Christian is a Christian-in-PRACTICE, one who demonstrates self-ammendment to Christ's Teaching in virtuous conduct, evidencing BEING Christian in thought, word and deed.
And btw, IMO, you pretty much consistently illustrate that example!
xo
Common Sense

San Diego, CA

#962 Aug 28, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>1B. Yes, I believe it was love. God knew ahead of time what would happen as far as the fall; but also knew that 'redemption' would be provided so that many from His creation would live in eternity with Him. The fact of the matter is, you have the opportunity to live with the Creator for eternity. He has provided a 'way' for 'you' to live with 'Him' for eternity. I would classify that as 'love'.
What does >>"the fall of man"<< have to do with your god creating bait-fish, knowing in advance, they are condemned to live a life of fear until they're chopped in half by bluefish? Love is compassionate and dose not willingly create pain. That's just one small example in nature that anyone can view showing life for many creatures could not have been created by a loving creator..Do you have an answer to this conundrum for the christian creator of love? If you do I'd like to hear it..
Job wrote:
<quoted text>2. First off, we 'don't' have complete free will. You don't have the free will to jump off of a cliff, and land as if you jumped off of a street curb. We are 'bound/subject to' certain laws of nature that (I believe) God created. We also don't have a free will to 'will' things into existence. God didn't create an environment to where if one is hungry, we can 'will' a double cheeseburger to appear in our hand. We have to take the natural steps necessary to 'obtain' food (work for the money to provide food, clothing, living quarters).
We also don't have free-will to 'create', or "will into existence", a sort of life after death "personal paradise". An alternative to what is 'inevitable' after we pass on. Whatever happens after we pass on is as inevitable as to what would physically happen to us if we touch a hot stove.
We do have certain choices. On terra firma, we have free-will, but we have a choice as to whether or not we will abide by laws allowing us to continue existing in the free outside world, or disobey laws and ending up in the underground restricted world of prison. We were also given a choice for eternal destiny.
I was talking specifically about the free will christianity gives humans. The option is believing your ancient book is true or be tortured in flames forever for people like me that can't. Your biblical "free will" is the perfect definitional of coercion. With this in mind, please explain if you still think it's free will..

Coercion definition:
To force to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation; compel.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/coerce
Job wrote:
<quoted text>3. And again, are you a vegetarian? That's a question, not a statement.
I'm not a vegetarian, why do you ask?
Common Sense

San Diego, CA

#963 Aug 28, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
Welcome to the club. I couldn't possibly tell you how many questions I've asked here that have gone unanswered.
The only questions I haven't answered are those that aren't reverent to out little debate unless I missed one by mistake..If you ask any future questions off topic I'll answer it with off topic and repeat the question...You can do the same with my questions, fair enough? You're doing much more posting than I am so maybe that's why you can't stay as focused..

“Third Eye”

Since: Nov 10

You can't get there from here.

#964 Aug 28, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>Like the resurrection story?
Wow, you love the taste of your foot, dontcha?
Either your God created everything or not, which is it?
Everything...you need to ask?
lol

Pineville, WV

#965 Aug 28, 2013
janeebee wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, I'M smarter than that.
How about you?
I said JESUS said "I am the Way", and you think I'm CLAIMING He was!
Duhhh...
Well, He IS the Only Way. You calling Him a liar?

Are you of the church of Oprah? Here is the perfect example of the church of Oprah, the church of Nettielbelle/Cookie, the church of anyone who thinks there is some other way to heaven EXCEPT through and by the Atoning Blood of Christ.

Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#966 Aug 29, 2013
janeebee wrote:
<quoted text>
ALL Christians are Christians! It's just that many Christians prove not to be much of one.
The issue isn't whether a person IS or ISN'T a Christian.
The issue is whether a Christian is a TRUE Christian or not.
A TRUE Christian is a Christian-in-PRACTICE, one who demonstrates self-ammendment to Christ's Teaching in virtuous conduct, evidencing BEING Christian in thought, word and deed.
And btw, IMO, you pretty much consistently illustrate that example!
xo
The age-old question - Who is a "true" Christian?- and the answer is always the same - everybody that believes the way I believe is a "true" Christian and any Christian that belives differently is not, which means that all Christians are not "true" Christians according some Christians.

What most "Christians" fail to realize is that the Bible like is a book written in imperfect human language which must be interpreted. No one can deny that two sincere Christians of the same sect can disagree over the meaning of a Bible passage. Even if you believe the Bible is the inerrant word of "God" it must be interpreted correctly by an ordinary human mind.

That's why Job judges Hitler and the other Nazi Christians not "devout" (true) Christians, their beliefs do not agree with his. That's why I claim that George Washington cannot necessarily be considered a Christian since he never provided a public explanation of his understanding of the teachings of the New Testament. Deists such as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin publically proclaimed a respect for the moral teachings ot the New Testament but rejected the supernatural claims and did not consider themselves Christians.

"Every man...being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."-- George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia

That sounds more like the thinking of a Deist than the thinking of a fundamentalist Christian who thinks that anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus is "God" and savior will burn in hell for all eternity.
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#967 Aug 29, 2013
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
If God knew that the Fall was inevitable, then Eve had no choice but to eat the forbidden fruit.
Since she had no choice (amplified by the fact that she had no knowledge of right and wrong until AFTER she ate the fruit that imparted that specific knowledge), then the fact that God punished her makes God a demon.
Providing redemption is a bogus move. Since God knew in advance what would happen, he must have planned it that way.
And since God knows in advance who is or isn't going to be redeemed, there is no free will. If God created all of us and if he knew what we would choose before he made us, then punishing or saving us based on something we have no control over is incredibly perverse and wicked.
Your God is a sham. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are shams, as they are all based on the concept of original Sin.
If you would simply take one step back and look at this with logic instead of blind faith, you'd see that I'm right.
I can take a step in any direction and still disagree with you.

The future already exists. I don't know if you believe that or not, but if you can't deny that as at least a possibility, then do you think that "scientific theory" being fact would effect free-will? Just because the future exists doesn't mean that it's outcome is not effected by personal decisions. Your decision as to whether or not to step outside at noon might decide the fate of a bug you may step on. Whether that bug lives on to see another day is in the future, but it's fate is not manipulated in any way. It's not inevitable.

God abides in a realm that scientists must believe to have at least existed, which is a "timeless" realm. But He also exists in, or understands/relates to our "time-related realm". Just because God 'knows' how man will choose, doesn't mean free-will has been rendered void anymore than if you or I somehow knew what would happen in the future (be it premonition,'scientifically' figuring out how to do it, etc.).

“God Loves Ilks!”

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#968 Aug 29, 2013
lol wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, He IS the Only Way. You calling Him a liar?
Are you of the church of Oprah? Here is the perfect example of the church of Oprah, the church of Nettielbelle/Cookie, the church of anyone who thinks there is some other way to heaven EXCEPT through and by the Atoning Blood of Christ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =noO_dCWtB1EXX
Typical Wayne reply..........
Only poster I know who used the phrase 'church of Oprah' was Wayne..........
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#969 Aug 29, 2013
Big Al wrote:
1.<quoted text>
What type of Christian was he referring to? Maybe he was referring to a Unitarian Christian that did not believe that Jesus was “God” and savior. Nowhere does it say that he believed Jesus was “God” and savior.
<quoted text>

2. This was his only reference to Jesus and not a profession of belief that Jesus was “God” and savior.
<quoted text>

3. Apparently the Christians of that day thought if necessary for Washington to certify his Christianity for as Thomas Jefferson wrote they penned their address “as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not”? It seems rather strange to me that the Christian contemporaries of Washington were not as sure of his Christianity as you are.
1. How often do you see 'me' saying "Jesus is God"? The 'Bible' doesn't even have a verse that says "Jesus is God", or "I (Jesus) am God".

2. No, it wasn't his only reference to Jesus Christ. And do have any idea how many sermons have been preached publicly, let alone one on one professions of faith where there's no mention of Jesus being God?

I also don't recall Hitler saying "Jesus is God".

3. I think the point Washington's granddaughter made was that the accusers should have looked at his actions rather than profession. There were times when Jesus Himself remained quiet when pressed to make certain proclamations. Or, he challenged his accusers to judge the works that He did. He did this even when John the Baptist had doubts.

By the way, modern contemporaries do the same thing. People even use Billy Graham's quotes to suggest he is not a Christian. The church I have been attending is fairly small. If it was a larger church, with a high profile pastor, he probably would be misquoted a lot. He once said in a sermon "religion stinks". We all know that he was referring to the pharisaical element of religion; but someone 'could' probably misquote him to suggest that he is a deist.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#970 Aug 29, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
I can take a step in any direction and still disagree with you.
The future already exists. I don't know if you believe that or not, but if you can't deny that as at least a possibility, then do you think that "scientific theory" being fact would effect free-will? Just because the future exists doesn't mean that it's outcome is not effected by personal decisions. Your decision as to whether or not to step outside at noon might decide the fate of a bug you may step on. Whether that bug lives on to see another day is in the future, but it's fate is not manipulated in any way. It's not inevitable.
God abides in a realm that scientists must believe to have at least existed, which is a "timeless" realm. But He also exists in, or understands/relates to our "time-related realm". Just because God 'knows' how man will choose, doesn't mean free-will has been rendered void anymore than if you or I somehow knew what would happen in the future (be it premonition,'scientifically' figuring out how to do it, etc.).
If the future already exists, then everything is inevitable.

The fact that you believe the opposite proves to me that you are incapable of thinking rationally and logically about this subject.

Sorry, I don't mean to insult you. You've been incredibly civil with me and I appreciate that. But I have to point out that your positions are mutually exclusive: if the future already exists, then everything is predetermined. Predetermination automatically confers inevitability.

Think about it some more and get back to me.
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#971 Aug 29, 2013
Big Al wrote:
1. <quoted text>
George Washington’s personal Prayer Journal is not authentic. It was found in a trunk owned by Lawrence Washington one of George’s descendants around 1890. Lawrence Washington took it to the Smithsonian and they concluded that it could not have belonged to George himself. It was auctioneer Stan Henkel who had it published as belonging to George Washington.
“Frank Grizzard is a senior editor of the George Washington Papers collection at the University of Virginia. I contacted him for my post in December 2004 about this document [Washington’s personal Prayer Journal] and he said in no uncertain terms that this document was neither written by nor associated with George Washington.”– Ed Brayton
<quoted text>
1. It is believed that Washington wrote it when about 20 years old. A contemporary of his W. Hebert Burk concluded that it is authentic. And there are other experts who conclude that as well.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#972 Aug 29, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>Just because God 'knows' how man will choose, doesn't mean free-will has been rendered void anymore than if you or I somehow knew what would happen in the future (be it premonition,'scientifically' figuring out how to do it, etc.).
This requires extra attention, since it is so obviously false.

Let's say God knows that on day X at moment Y you will choose to do Z.

When day X, moment Y arrives, what are you going to do? A? B? Q?

No, you are going to do Z. You have to, or else God will have been wrong about what you would do.

Since you have to do Z, you have no free will to choose anything but Z.

Either God is omniscient and knows the future, or we have free will. One or the other is possible, but not both.

We cannot choose to do anything other than what God knows we will choose.

There is one other option: we don't have free will, and God isn't omniscient (i.e. God doesn't exist.)

Recent scientific studies have pretty much shown that we don't actually have free will - we are in fact slaves to our brains.

Research has shown that our brains begin to process thoughts and actions BEFORE we are conscious of them. In essence, we trick ourselves into believing that we have a choice.

Very recently, an experiment was completed in which the body of one human being were manipulated, remotely, by the brain of another human being.

You can read about it here:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/sciencefai...

Regardless of whether or your God exists or not, we humans don't have free will after all.

And that's even WORSE news for your God, if he exists: the fact that we are not in full control of our destinies means that God punishes people whom he created and whose lives he had already decided upon.

If God exists, then he created some of us knowing in advance that we would reject him. Since he knew we would do that in advance, he planned it that way.

And since he planned it that way he is a perverse monster for punishing humans who reject him.

I'm quite sure your God isn't real, for several reasons. The most compelling reason is that an all-good God would be unable to do something as evil as punishing people for doing the very things he "programmed" them to do.

I'm probably wasting my time explaining this to you, but if there are other people on this thread who are undecided about the existence of the Christian God, this may be enough to convince them that he doesn't exist.

There may be "something" out there, but that "something" surely isn't the God that Christians believe exists.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#973 Aug 29, 2013
lol wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, He IS the Only Way. You calling Him a liar?
Are you of the church of Oprah? Here is the perfect example of the church of Oprah, the church of Nettielbelle/Cookie, the church of anyone who thinks there is some other way to heaven EXCEPT through and by the Atoning Blood of Christ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =noO_dCWtB1EXX
"lol" is an acronym for "lost one leg."

Hi Wayne, I see you're still pissed at God for taking your leg away because you engaged in gay sex.

Hell definitely exists. I know because you're living in it.

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