No moral compass
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A Better Way

Yonkers, NY

#1 Sep 29, 2013
The very idea that we get a moral compass from religion is horrible. Not only should we not get our moral compass from religion, as a matter of fact we don’t. We shouldn’t, because if you actually look at the bible or the Koran, and get your moral compass from there, it’s horrible – stoning people to death, stoning people for breaking the Sabbath.

Now of course we don’t do that anymore, but the reason we don’t do it is that we pick out those verses of the bible that we like, and reject those verses we don’t like. What criteria do we use to pick out the good ones and reject the bad ones? Non-biblical criteria, non-religious criteria. The same criteria as guide any modern person in their moral compass that has nothing to do with religion.

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2013/...
little lamb

South Yarra, Australia

#2 Sep 29, 2013
All scripture is inspired of God beneficial for teaching , reproving and setting matters straight, and for disciplining in righteousness

That the man of God will be fully competent and completely equipped for every good work.

So its the scriptures that make us wise for salvation...not religion.

NDanger

“Third Eye”

Since: Nov 10

You can't get there from here.

#3 Sep 29, 2013
A Better Way wrote:
The very idea that we get a moral compass from religion is horrible. Not only should we not get our moral compass from religion, as a matter of fact we don’t. We shouldn’t, because if you actually look at the bible or the Koran, and get your moral compass from there, it’s horrible – stoning people to death, stoning people for breaking the Sabbath.
Now of course we don’t do that anymore, but the reason we don’t do it is that we pick out those verses of the bible that we like, and reject those verses we don’t like. What criteria do we use to pick out the good ones and reject the bad ones? Non-biblical criteria, non-religious criteria. The same criteria as guide any modern person in their moral compass that has nothing to do with religion.
http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2013/...
Actually, I believe it is what GOD has instilled in your heart and whether you choose to abide by it (Moral compass)...'Religion' is of a different matter...
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#4 Sep 29, 2013
NDanger wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, I believe it is what GOD has instilled in your heart and whether you choose to abide by it (Moral compass)...'Religion' is of a different matter...
So morality is relative...subject to the individuals divine instillation...
Job

San Jose, CA

#5 Sep 29, 2013
A Better Way wrote:
The very idea that we get a moral compass from religion is horrible. Not only should we not get our moral compass from religion, as a matter of fact we don’t. We shouldn’t, because if you actually look at the bible or the Koran, and get your moral compass from there, it’s horrible – stoning people to death, stoning people for breaking the Sabbath.
Now of course we don’t do that anymore, but the reason we don’t do it is that we pick out those verses of the bible that we like, and reject those verses we don’t like. What criteria do we use to pick out the good ones and reject the bad ones? Non-biblical criteria, non-religious criteria. The same criteria as guide any modern person in their moral compass that has nothing to do with religion.
http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2013/...
However, all accusations against the Bible, religion, etc. has it's secular/atheistic counterpart. The obvious one's involve the French Revolution, the communist regimes, Khmer Rouge, etc.

As far as butchery goes, countless children are being slaughtered in the womb. And it's being justifed. It's considered 'moral'. And we're not talking about merely controversial issues where a female is raped, or is facing potential death herself if she gives birth. Where is the outcry against the mass butchery of infants via "Planned Parenthood"? We're talking 'torture' of unborn children....justified.

There are many atheists in this country and world, and many of them just mind their business. It's the various 'activist' atheist groups that use Christianity as a 'scapegoat' for the world's problems. Right now groups like "Freedom From Religion" are meowing pussycats (as opposed to the proverbial roaring lion), but place that mentality into the vast majority....we've got a totalitarian society.

With these groups, we're not talking about people utilizing 'reason'. Far from it. We're not talking about people who are able to reason that within religion, there are the good and the bad (just as there is good and bad in the atheist realm). We're not talking about people who will consider the fact that many Christians opposed Hitler, helped Jews, fight prostitution in 3rd world countries, feed the poor, etc. To make things even more ridiculous, they generally resort to using early history to try and support their accusations ("It happened in early European history, therefore history will repeat itself", etc.).
feces for jesus

Thiells, NY

#8 Sep 29, 2013
little lamb wrote:
All scripture is inspired of God beneficial for teaching , reproving and setting matters straight, and for disciplining in righteousness
That the man of God will be fully competent and completely equipped for every good work.
So its the scriptures that make us wise for salvation...not religion.
Everything in your post is unprovable garbage.

Get back to us when you have a single shred of evidence to back up your never ending BS.
Patriot

Brighton, CO

#9 Sep 29, 2013
Romans 8 http://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm

"We are not obligated to the flesh to live according to the flesh, for if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. All those led by GOD'S Spirit are GOD'S sons. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry out,“Abba, Father!&#8239;” The Spirit Himself testifies together with our spirit that we are GOD'S children, and if children, also heirs&#8239;—&#8239;he irs of GOD and coheirs with Christ&#8239;—&#8239;s eeing that we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him."

----

History reveals that the advancement of truth comes at a high price, and a majority of people are unwilling to pay the price. It is much more comfortable to remain within the social and religious comforts of fellowship than to follow the Spirit into the desert of rejection where often, you are alone with GOD. The Bible represents people as sheep for good reason. They prefer to flock together. They also tend to follow their leaders (political and religious) without thinking or thoroughly studying matters for themselves. Consider the total sum of religious thought that Hindus, Moslems, Catholics, Jews, Protestants, atheists and pagans believe today. All of these different ideas about GOD came from spiritual leaders who are as blind as the lay people they guide.(Matthew 23:16)

Humanity’s diversity in religious beliefs proves that people are capable of believing anything and everything. Our diversity also proves that our belief systems have nothing to do with Eternal Truth. Even though Catholics and Protestants insist their views come directly from Scripture, a cursory review of Scripture can demonstrate otherwise. Truth is not determined by a majority vote or acceptance. Thoughtfully consider these words: "Truth is not what I believe. Truth is not even what I know. Truth is fact. I may not believe it. I may not know it. That does not change it. It is there nevertheless, waiting to be discovered and believed. Truth does not depend on the unsettled and changing opinions of men. It was truth before it was believed. It remains truth whether it is believed or not. Reason does not originate or create it. It merely discovers it. Consequently, reason is not a source. Truth goes back beyond reason. Others would have us believe that the church is the source of authority, particularly in matters of theology. They are wrong. The church is the product of Truth. It does not originate it. It came into being by accepting Divine Revelation. It is not the source of that revelation. Truth goes beyond the church, it is antecedent to it."
(When a Man Dies, Carlyle B. Haynes (1882-1958); p.5)
little lamb

South Yarra, Australia

#11 Sep 29, 2013
Patriot wrote:
Romans 8 http://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm
"We are not obligated to the flesh to live according to the flesh, for if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. All those led by GOD'S Spirit are GOD'S sons. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry out,“Abba, Father!&#8239;” The Spirit Himself testifies together with our spirit that we are GOD'S children, and if children, also heirs&#8239;—&#8239;he irs of GOD and coheirs with Christ&#8239;—&#8239;s eeing that we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him."
----
History reveals that the advancement of truth comes at a high price, and a majority of people are unwilling to pay the price. It is much more comfortable to remain within the social and religious comforts of fellowship than to follow the Spirit into the desert of rejection where often, you are alone with GOD. The Bible represents people as sheep for good reason. They prefer to flock together. They also tend to follow their leaders (political and religious) without thinking or thoroughly studying matters for themselves. Consider the total sum of religious thought that Hindus, Moslems, Catholics, Jews, Protestants, atheists and pagans believe today. All of these different ideas about GOD came from spiritual leaders who are as blind as the lay people they guide.(Matthew 23:16)
Humanity’s diversity in religious beliefs proves that people are capable of believing anything and everything. Our diversity also proves that our belief systems have nothing to do with Eternal Truth. Even though Catholics and Protestants insist their views come directly from Scripture, a cursory review of Scripture can demonstrate otherwise. Truth is not determined by a majority vote or acceptance. Thoughtfully consider these words: "Truth is not what I believe. Truth is not even what I know. Truth is fact. I may not believe it. I may not know it. That does not change it. It is there nevertheless, waiting to be discovered and believed. Truth does not depend on the unsettled and changing opinions of men. It was truth before it was believed. It remains truth whether it is believed or not. Reason does not originate or create it. It merely discovers it. Consequently, reason is not a source. Truth goes back beyond reason. Others would have us believe that the church is the source of authority, particularly in matters of theology. They are wrong. The church is the product of Truth. It does not originate it. It came into being by accepting Divine Revelation. It is not the source of that revelation. Truth goes beyond the church, it is antecedent to it."
(When a Man Dies, Carlyle B. Haynes (1882-1958); p.5)
Agree with a lot here..

Though we are told that Jesus is the TRUTH..so one man in time embodied truth...and as you say here, it made him an outcast.

He invites us to 'come and learn of him'

Because in him is the very wisdom and knowledge of God is hidden.
TheCapedCrusader

Manassas, VA

#12 Sep 30, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
That's where logic doesn't fit in.
When did you ever care about logic?
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
This is ignoring the fact that many people are inspired to do good 'because' of their reverence for God.
Is it better to do good for the right reasons or do good for the wrong reasons? I try and treat people the way I would like to be treated. I don't do it through fear of eternal retribution. I do it because it makes me feel good and (for me) is the right thing to do.
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
People kill because they are of a different religion than that of their victims. People also kill because they are 'not' part of a religion whereas their victims are.
People kill for all sorts of reasons. They would continue to do so even if there was no religion at all.
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
The problem is, "atheist activists" distort truth, and at times "lie".
Were you attempting irony? If so you have succeeded beyond your wildest expectations.
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
"Anti-religion" (mass hysteria) is equal to any crime committed by anyone of a religion.
Speaking out (calmly, rationally and logically) against religion is neither a crime or hysteria.
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#13 Sep 30, 2013
Belief in a god is not necessary for a man to see that treating others as you yourself would like to be treated is ultimately beneficial to you as well as others.

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.”-- Albert Einstein, 1930

History shows quite clearly that societies based entirely on one or another idea of religious morality always degenerate into intolerant, tyrannical systems no better than any of the other systems previously devised. The success of our democratic system which specifically makes religious ideas of morality an individual right rather than the rule for all of society has proven to be the best system to have come along so far.
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#14 Sep 30, 2013
TheCapedCrusader wrote:
1. <quoted text>
When did you ever care about logic?
<quoted text>

2. Is it better to do good for the right reasons or do good for the wrong reasons? I try and treat people the way I would like to be treated. I don't do it through fear of eternal retribution. I do it because it makes me feel good and (for me) is the right thing to do.
<quoted text>

3. People kill for all sorts of reasons. They would continue to do so even if there was no religion at all.
<quoted text>

4. Were you attempting irony? If so you have succeeded beyond your wildest expectations.
<quoted text>

5. Speaking out (calmly, rationally and logically) against religion is neither a crime or hysteria.
1. I don't think I can give you an exact date.

2. Do you 'always' treat people good? Have you always treated people good? What if treating someone good doesn't necessarily "feel good"? What if there is no evidence of "good treatment" being reciprocated?

3. That is correct.

4. Not that I'm aware of, no.

5. I think you may have misunderstood me. I was referring to historic and international war crimes as referred a few posts back.
TheCapedCrusader

Fort Lauderdale, FL

#15 Sep 30, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
2. Do you 'always' treat people good? Have you always treated people good?
I'm not always Mr Nice Guy. I have never claimed to be perfect. I just do the best I can.
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
What if treating someone good doesn't necessarily "feel good"?
I have never been in that position and am unsure how it would be possible to treat someone well and not feel good about doing so. Personally I only feel bad (in retrospect) if I treat someone badly.
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
What if there is no evidence of "good treatment" being reciprocated?
As I have already explained, I don't do it for a reward. Also, the person acting badly always ends up appearing ridiculous.
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
4. Not that I'm aware of, no.
I thought the bible said something about only casting the first stone if you are without fault, or something along those lines?
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
5. I think you may have misunderstood me. I was referring to historic and international war crimes as referred a few posts back.
You mean the acts carried out by crazed, power hungry dictators and their minions? That's the thing with mob mentality, there are a few lunatics leading and everyone else follows because of self preservation. If I got caught up in an Islamic uprising I would not declare my atheism. In fact I would happily "convert" if it ensured my continued survival. How about you, would you declare your Christianity ?
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#16 Sep 30, 2013
TheCapedCrusader wrote:
1. <quoted text>
I'm not always Mr Nice Guy. I have never claimed to be perfect. I just do the best I can.
<quoted text>

2. I have never been in that position and am unsure how it would be possible to treat someone well and not feel good about doing so. Personally I only feel bad (in retrospect) if I treat someone badly.
<quoted text>

3. As I have already explained, I don't do it for a reward.

4. Also, the person acting badly always ends up appearing ridiculous.
<quoted text>

5. I thought the bible said something about only casting the first stone if you are without fault, or something along those lines?
<quoted text>

6. You mean the acts carried out by crazed, power hungry dictators and their minions? That's the thing with mob mentality, there are a few lunatics leading and everyone else follows because of self preservation. If I got caught up in an Islamic uprising I would not declare my atheism. In fact I would happily "convert" if it ensured my continued survival. How about you, would you declare your Christianity ?
1. The best you can? Really? Think about a time where you 'weren't' Mr. Nice Guy. Were you actually 'incapable' of being nice? No way in the world that you could have restrained yourself from being "un-nice"?

2. Treating someone good who had somehow intentionally violated them (gossiped, vandalized property, etc.) may not produce good "feelings" necessarily, even if it's the right thing to do.

3. What do you mean by 'reward'? What is the reward for a Christian to do good?

4. Always? I've seen people acting badly, not having the "bad" returned to them, and still coming out smelling of roses in the eyes of others around them.

5. Yes, I believe that you are referring to John 8:7

New International Version
When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

6. I'd certainly like to think so. I can't say for sure until placed in that situation. If the Apostle Peter denied that he knew Jesus, then it's very possible that I might as well. However, what is evident is that God gives 'strength' under those circumstances. I might fail, realize my weakness, and like Peter get restored; or, God may give me the strength right off the bat.

One thing is for sure, I would need strength beyond myself. And this scenario you presented happens all the time and throughout history where Christians are tortured when standing firm in their faith. I know a Christian woman personally who endured torture in Ethiopia for her faith.

As far as crazed "atheist" dictators and their minions, what is the difference between them and "religious" crazed dictators? Or in other words, why would a Christian associate themselves with historical religious dictators any more than a modern western atheist would associate themselves with atheist dictators?

NDanger

“Third Eye”

Since: Nov 10

You can't get there from here.

#17 Sep 30, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>So morality is relative...subject to the individuals divine instillation...
I believe it's the same across the board...
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#18 Sep 30, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
That's where logic doesn't fit in. This is ignoring the fact that many people are inspired to do good 'because' of their reverence for God.
People kill because they are of a different religion than that of their victims. People also kill because they are 'not' part of a religion whereas their victims are.
The problem is, "atheist activists" distort truth, and at times "lie".
"Anti-religion" (mass hysteria) is equal to any crime committed by anyone of a religion.
Can you help me understand why people NEED this "reverence for God" to 1. be inspired, 2. to do good...?

Why is the risk of offending this God the catalyst? Its hard not believe that most Xtians are such mostly out of fear and the promise of rewards. There seem to be few other explanations...fear of punishment and the chance of a reward.

While I concur that ALL people have the propensity to lie, and many do out of habit - why is it that Xtianity - the Xtians involved, lied over and over again about others they disliked - ALL in direct opposition to the very tenets of the Religion/Faith as well as Jesus himself.??? Why lie when the message is supposed to be so powerful?

2K years of Xtianity spreading across the planet, most thru intentional efforts, and thru it all Xtians lied and cheated in order to gain an upper hand on various natives people. All in direct opposition to the tenets of the Faith...leaving us with the old problems. 1. There is nothing inherently moral about being a Xtian, 2. There have not been a whole lot of actual True Xtians for 2K+ years now.(#2 of course I reject as no one, not even an arrogant atheist like myself, can take anyone's faith from them.)

Too often Xtians rely not on the truth about people, things and other groups, etc, but on lies, propaganda, etc. Its been part of the SOP since it was legalized by a Roman Emperor...force the faith on others, then use force to administer the faith.

Leaving me/others to conclude that 1. there is no inherent morality in being a Xtian, its simply a belief and it ends there (contrary to Xtians common claims) 2. Xtians really dont think the message is all that great that it requires lies and smoke-screens to sell it.

Why is it that Xtianity has such a blemished past, that is in fact the present as well...?(Its not the blemishing has stopped...)
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#19 Sep 30, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
1. The best you can? Really? Think about a time where you 'weren't' Mr. Nice Guy. Were you actually 'incapable' of being nice? No way in the world that you could have restrained yourself from being "un-nice"?
2. Treating someone good who had somehow intentionally violated them (gossiped, vandalized property, etc.) may not produce good "feelings" necessarily, even if it's the right thing to do.
3. What do you mean by 'reward'? What is the reward for a Christian to do good?
4. Always? I've seen people acting badly, not having the "bad" returned to them, and still coming out smelling of roses in the eyes of others around them.
5. Yes, I believe that you are referring to John 8:7
New International Version
When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."
6. I'd certainly like to think so. I can't say for sure until placed in that situation. If the Apostle Peter denied that he knew Jesus, then it's very possible that I might as well. However, what is evident is that God gives 'strength' under those circumstances. I might fail, realize my weakness, and like Peter get restored; or, God may give me the strength right off the bat.
One thing is for sure, I would need strength beyond myself. And this scenario you presented happens all the time and throughout history where Christians are tortured when standing firm in their faith. I know a Christian woman personally who endured torture in Ethiopia for her faith.
As far as crazed "atheist" dictators and their minions, what is the difference between them and "religious" crazed dictators? Or in other words, why would a Christian associate themselves with historical religious dictators any more than a modern western atheist would associate themselves with atheist dictators?
3. Really you need to ask that? Eternal life in eternal bliss.

(Which BTW I find a ridiculous idea...what could be worse than eternal bliss/joy/happiness...?)

The difference between the atheist and Religious dictators is that allegedly BEING a Xtian makes people immediately GOOD. You all tell us over and over, and over that with Faith in Jesus comes morality and ethical behaviors that rise way above the bar of regular folks.

According to You all, we shold expect the atheist dictators to be jerks as they lack a true and Divinely guided moral compass. But Xtians have the HS to guide and help them...they have 1/3 of a Godhead right there alongside them, guiding their Bible study, as well as everything else...right?
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#20 Sep 30, 2013
That old troublesome word is being tossed around a lot...TRUTH.

I see where someone said Truth is fact. That's not true, lol, at all. What truth are we talking about? That the sun can burn our skin, or that everyman/woman NEEDS to believe in X, or Y, or Z or be cast adrift in their life...?

While a fact might be true, a "truth" (religious, ideological, purely personal, etc) is not always a fact.

And that is what we are dealing with on the subject of Religion, Faith, Belief or non-belief. Truth is a term that gets abused in these discussions and should be more carefully used.

When using it would be best to clarify what is meant by truth...
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#21 Sep 30, 2013
NDanger wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe it's the same across the board...
What is the same? Morality is the same across - what board...?
Thinking

Royston, UK

#22 Sep 30, 2013
1 Timothy 2:11 - Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
little lamb wrote:
All scripture is inspired of God beneficial for teaching , reproving and setting matters straight, and for disciplining in righteousness
That the man of God will be fully competent and completely equipped for every good work.
So its the scriptures that make us wise for salvation...not religion.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#23 Sep 30, 2013
And by the way, "ALL scripture is inspired..." would include the Holy Qu'ran, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Vedas, etc. right?

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