"I’m saying GOD doesn’t exist!"
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#202 Apr 3, 2013
Reality wrote:
<quoted text>
Jeff, could you ever be attracted to another man sexually if you wanted to??? I know for certain I couldn't, even if someone offered me a waterfront home if I could..If your answer is 'no' you could not be attracted to a man sexually, this proves homosexuality is not a choice.
People all kinds of "attractions" to things that are not good. Just because someone is attracted to something does not mean they should follow through on it especially when it will cause great harm.

Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#203 Apr 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
People all kinds of "attractions" to things that are not good. Just because someone is attracted to something does not mean they should follow through on it especially when it will cause great harm.
Sexual preference is not a choice. It is neither good nor bad. It is just what IS.

You never chose to be attracted to women (assuming you ARE). You just WERE and you noticed that at the age of puberty or slightly earlier.

For gay people, it's just the opposite kind of attraction from yours. And something they notice at a certain age.

Not a choice, not evil, but just who they are drawn to.

If you think your Christian God creates everybody and oversees their lives, then clearly BEING GAY IS A PART OF HIS PLAN for many people.
Reality

San Diego, CA

#204 Apr 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
People all kinds of "attractions" to things that are not good. Just because someone is attracted to something does not mean they should follow through on it especially when it will cause great harm.
You didn't answer my question, why is that? All you Bible thumpers want to do is say homosexuality is a choice because your old book says it is which is dumber than dirt..When someone wants to debate it with you christians you stop answering questions and replace it with nonsense like you just did..
LGK

Sheffield, UK

#205 Apr 3, 2013
Mr Mxyzptlk wrote:
<quoted text>
High Five to U, Mr Fly,...
for being more curious than "Mr Curious!" (lol)
Since you seem to have a religiously-bent axe to grind (which automatically infers that), satisfying U will be all but impossible for an amateurish protagonist like me, Mr Mxy.
Interestingly (and I am preparing a thread for this CF that explains my theory), if you, and all fundie-like religio-so-sures, would take the Bible, biblegods (the 2 prime ones), esp Jesus Christ, and set them aside,... what kind of religion do you think would be left?
Simply put, you all would fit neatly into the categorically-ancient (a first?!!) Egyptian religions of the Gods-Egyptical, indigenously archived as "Hapi, Ptah, Osiris, and Re".... as matters of fact, I strongly contend that the ancient Egyptians were far closer to reality in their primal belief systems than our modern Judaic-Xtian-Islam religions, deity-wise!m
I never said that "ALL" alien-spotted claimants are lying. You pogo-stick to that notion. What I did say to you in post #161 is this:
"Ezekiel (and, by logical extension, ALL other alien-visitor claimants) either, a) LIED, b) hallucinated, c) told the truth.... Which to you is most feasible, Mr Fly?
They ALL must fit into one of those 3 slots, right?!!
They either "LIED" (as you admitted many UFO-ers do); or, "HALLUCINATED" (a very neat assumption, backed by psych-out examinations and professional conclusions); or, "TOLD the TRUTH" (a notion which I have yet to jump with joy over.... Do You joy-jump over alien-visits?).
Being agnostic as I am, and believing the universe to be infinite with infinite possibility, I am wide open to the notion and scientific evaluation that there's a plethora of life forms beyond those inhabiting this marvelous orbital speck called Earth; But, I'm as dull to such speculation as you seem to be honed to it.
I have not studied much on your rub of Alien Visitation claims. Evidently,... YOU have. So then, Mr Fly, why do you hesitate or hold back your enlightenment from us,...hmm??
Please, DO let your "the aliens-are-here" arrows fly, so's we can all witness the real Robin Hood in you.
Thanx for reading me, Mr fly,
Mr Mxy
What's the evidence that Ezekiel hallucinated & who are the professionals who concluded he did?

Would it be fair to say your belief in "a plethora" of alien life forms is pure blind faith as there isn't a shred of evidence of a planet (besides earth) that can support life let alone an actual ET?

Finally, as you say you're wide open to scientific explanation, why do you say the universe is infinite when all scientific & mathematical evidence shows that this is false? I'm tempted to think that what's infinite is the faith with which you hold onto your beliefs - an infinite universe is impossible & aliens just pie in the sky!

Us Christians may be wrong but a person called Jesus actually existed & fulfilled what was written about him centuries ahead. Check this for yourself if you don't believe me, you'll find it beats aliens hands down.
Flygerian

United States

#206 Apr 3, 2013
Mr Mxyzptlk wrote:
<quoted text>
High Five to U, Mr Fly,...
for being more curious than "Mr Curious!" (lol)
Since you seem to have a religiously-bent axe to grind (which automatically infers that), satisfying U will be all but impossible for an amateurish protagonist like me, Mr Mxy.
Interestingly (and I am preparing a thread for this CF that explains my theory), if you, and all fundie-like religio-so-sures, would take the Bible, biblegods (the 2 prime ones), esp Jesus Christ, and set them aside,... what kind of religion do you think would be left?
Simply put, you all would fit neatly into the categorically-ancient (a first?!!) Egyptian religions of the Gods-Egyptical, indigenously archived as "Hapi, Ptah, Osiris, and Re".... as matters of fact, I strongly contend that the ancient Egyptians were far closer to reality in their primal belief systems than our modern Judaic-Xtian-Islam religions, deity-wise!
I never said that "ALL" alien-spotted claimants are lying. You pogo-stick to that notion. What I did say to you in post #161 is this:
"Ezekiel (and, by logical extension, ALL other alien-visitor claimants) either, a) LIED, b) hallucinated, c) told the truth.... Which to you is most feasible, Mr Fly?
They ALL must fit into one of those 3 slots, right?!!
They either "LIED" (as you admitted many UFO-ers do); or, "HALLUCINATED" (a very neat assumption, backed by psych-out examinations and professional conclusions); or, "TOLD the TRUTH" (a notion which I have yet to jump with joy over.... Do You joy-jump over alien-visits?).
Being agnostic as I am, and believing the universe to be infinite with infinite possibility, I am wide open to the notion and scientific evaluation that there's a plethora of life forms beyond those inhabiting this marvelous orbital speck called Earth; But, I'm as dull to such speculation as you seem to be honed to it.
I have not studied much on your rub of Alien Visitation claims. Evidently,... YOU have. So then, Mr Fly, why do you hesitate or hold back your enlightenment from us,...hmm??
Please, DO let your "the aliens-are-here" arrows fly, so's we can all witness the real Robin Hood in you.
Thanx for reading me, Mr fly,
Mr Mxy
1. All it takes to satisfy me in this regard is simply you explaining why normale people across different civilizations would ALL be lying. If you do not know the reason then thats what it is I guess. Some lying? Sure. ALL lying? Maybe but why? In your long reply there was no answer to this?

2. I dont particularly believe in aliens in the way the "abductees" do. I believe that they are most likely angels of some sort but I guess by definition that could be an "alien" as well. With that said I know nothing if these are true or not. People say they have gone thru them therefore I believe that theres SOME truth to it. They arent just ALL lying. Thats my opinion though. I havent been thru one nor do I know ANYONE that has

3. How can an agnostic say God doesnt exist?

4. Yes EVERYTHING about a claim to see or experienced something fits into those three categories. WHat you didnt explain is why Ezekiel would lie. I mean its not like he was accepted after his "lie" they still didnt listen to what he had to say. So what did he lie for? WHat did he gain out of it?
Flygerian

United States

#207 Apr 3, 2013
Mr Mxyzptlk wrote:
<quoted text>
Mr Fly,
I inadvertently left out the sources behind my "Nile Analogy", as you put it. I guess that I assumed that You would be well aware of such astrologically-based ancient Egyptian mysticisms, which obviously U R not.
Here's some excerpted sourced-info about it that I have gleaned for your pleasure:
"The annual flooding of the Nile was the foundation of Egyptian civilization and agriculture, so predicting this occurrence with accuracy was the driving force behind the development of Egyptian astronomy. Once again, their studies of the heavens became intertwined with religion, esoterica and the priesthood.
Read more: Egyptian Astronomy - History of Astronomy
http://explorable.com/egyptian-astronomy
"Egyptian astronomy begins in prehistoric times. The presence of stone circles at Nabta Playa dating from the 5th millennium BCE show the importance of astronomy to the religious life of ancient Egypt even in the prehistoric period. The annual flooding of the Nile meant that the heliacal risings, or first visible appearances of stars at dawn, was of special interest in determining when this might occur,...
Astronomy played a considerable part in religious matters for fixing the dates of festivals and determining the hours of the night. The titles of several temple books are preserved recording the movements and phases of the sun, moon and stars.
The rising of Sirius at the beginning of the inundation was a particularly important point to fix in the yearly calendar.
By the time the historical Dynastic Period began in the 3rd millennium BCE, the 365 day period of the Egyptian calendar was already in use, and the observation of stars was important in determining the annual flooding of the Nile.
The Egyptian pyramids were carefully aligned towards the pole star, and the temple of Amun-Re at Karnak was aligned on the rising of the midwinter sun. Astronomy played a considerable part in fixing the dates of religious festivals and determining the hours of the night, and temple astrologers were especially adept at watching the stars and observing the conjunctions, phases, and risings of the Sun, Moon and planets."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_astrono...
More help is on the way in my soon-to-become another Topix Thread entitled (perhaps),
"Egyptian Religion, Back to The Future!"
Mr Mxy
I see the Nile part you spoke of. Maybe I read too quickly but does it say anywhere about the priests taking advantage of this and holding it over the people?

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#208 Apr 3, 2013
one way wrote:
By incorrectly saying that God doesn't exist is the same thing as incorrectly saying that Ricky Gervais doesn't exist. We correctly say that God exists because he has shown himself to mankind, just as Ricky Gervais has shown himself to mankind by his manifested writing.
Nope. Sorry.

God hasn't written a single thing himself. Neither has Jesus.

Ricky Gervais has revealed himself to ALL mankind in a way that ALL mankind can quickly and simply understand that he is a real person.

God, by choosing to reveal himself to only select individuals every now and then, has done himself a disservice.

There is no sane person who can deny that Ricky Gervais exists because the proof is undeniable.

And yet, MOST of the world's people deny that your God exists, because you cannot prove that he does exist.

If nothing else, Ricky Gervais is smarter and more savvy than your God.

Which means, of course, that your God cannot possibly exist.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#209 Apr 3, 2013
to the retard wrote:
He is real to me because He lives inside me. Try Him sometime.
Lots of people hallucinate. That means that their hallucinations are real to them.

If a person was hallucinating and asked you to "try" their particular hallucination sometime, would you? Of course not.

So please keep your hallucinations to yourself, or the short white van will be pulling up outside your door soon...

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#210 Apr 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
The age of the earth is really not that important as how it just happens to have over 75 factors that are absolutely necessary for life to exist here. If any of these factors were just slightly different we would not be here. Claiming we are just lucky just won't cut it.
There is evidence of some kind of flood even on the tops of high mountains.
This is such a tired argument, and so easy to disprove!

Do you play poker? Do you at least understand the hand rankings? If so, this will show you why you cannot conclude that your God exists from the premise you stated.

The highest ranking hand in poker is a royal flush - an Ace, King, Queen, Jack, and 10 all of the same suit.

So, if I told you I won a hand of poker just now, you could conclude that I must have hand a royal flush because nothing can beat it.

But you'd be wrong, obviously.

You see, I could have won with the LOWEST hand - a pair. My pair could have beat someone else's pair, or the person may have had rags (nothing, not even a pair) and tried to bluff me.

When you state that the earth is a certain way and that only God could be behind it, you ignore all the other possible explanations.

Of course you're probably too dense or too committed to your belief to understand any of this, but that's okay - I'm really writing this for the people on this thread who still have functional brain cells.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#211 Apr 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
That is not good enough for you to claim--"So I'm very open to the possibility that something might have started this process but right now there is no evidence for it." Possibility of what? What mindless force of nature can account for the big bang?
Put your beliefs on the table then we can compare what you have with Christianity. I want to see how you account for the creation of the universe and its fine-tuning without God. Go ahead. Make your case.
The universe isn't fine-tuned, Jeff. That's a straw man argument put forth by creationists and Intelligent Design advocates.

Do you play the Lottery? If not, are you aware of what it is? I hope so, because that's what I'm going to use as an example to illustrate my point.

In a typical lottery there are something like 60 million combinations of numbers, and only one number can be a winning number.

Let's say I pick 6 numbers and purchase a lottery ticket. That evening I watch the numbers being drawn, and I win!

Had I chosen just one number differently, even if it was the very next number (12 instead of 11, let's say), I would not have won the lottery.

So, was I "fine-tuned" to win the lottery, Jeff?

Of course not.

But even if I did win the lottery one day, it still wouldn't be enough to pay for the education you'd need to understand why your belief in your God, and all your silly illogical arguments, are worthless.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#212 Apr 3, 2013
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>Finally, as you say you're wide open to scientific explanation, why do you say the universe is infinite when all scientific & mathematical evidence shows that this is false? I'm tempted to think that what's infinite is the faith with which you hold onto your beliefs - an infinite universe is impossible & aliens just pie in the sky!
I wouldn't say an infinite universe is "impossible" but I would say it's unlikely, given the recent discovery of the Higgs boson.

I do agree that the idea of alien creatures from other worlds visiting Earth is nonsense. There may be life on other planets but we have zero evidence for that as of now, and we certainly have zero evidence that any of these alien life forms ever visited Earth.

That said, there is some good evidence for the theory of panspermia - that is, that life on Earth began after something from elsewhere managed to come to Earth, perhaps via a meteorite entering our atmosphere and crashing on Earth's surface.

Science is much more fascinating that religion, to me at least, because science is about always questioning everything whereas religion is about punishing people for questioning anything.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#213 Apr 3, 2013
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
Would it be fair to say your belief in "a plethora" of alien life forms is pure blind faith as there isn't a shred of evidence of a planet (besides earth) that can support life let alone an actual ET?
We have found the fossilized remnants of bacterial life in meteors that we know originally came from Mars.
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
Us Christians may be wrong but a person called Jesus actually existed & fulfilled what was written about him centuries ahead. Check this for yourself if you don't believe me, you'll find it beats aliens hands down.
Read "Bible Prophecy: Failure or Fulfillment?" by Tim Callahan
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Prophecy-Fulfillm...

From the Amazon description:
"Tim Callahan has done the rational thing and examined hundreds of verses from the Bible claimed to be "prophecy" to see if they meet four simple tests:

1) Is it true, false, or too vague to be specifically interpreted?

2) If true, was it written before or after the fact?

3) If written before the fact, was its fullfillment something that could be logically predicted based on the knowledge of the time?

4) Was the prophecy directly or deliberately fulfilled by someone with knowledge of the prophecy?

There is not a single "Bible prophecy" that meets these four tests.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#215 Apr 3, 2013
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
Sexual preference is not a choice. It is neither good nor bad. It is just what IS.
You never chose to be attracted to women (assuming you ARE). You just WERE and you noticed that at the age of puberty or slightly earlier.
For gay people, it's just the opposite kind of attraction from yours. And something they notice at a certain age.
Not a choice, not evil, but just who they are drawn to.
If you think your Christian God creates everybody and oversees their lives, then clearly BEING GAY IS A PART OF HIS PLAN for many people.
Why would same sex attraction be part of the plan of God when He never made any provision for it and condemns it?

Doesn't matter if its a preference. I have preference that if I acted on would cause great harm to me and my loved ones. So it is with same sex. It is very very unhealthy and leads to sickness and death.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#216 Apr 3, 2013
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
The universe isn't fine-tuned, Jeff. That's a straw man argument put forth by creationists and Intelligent Design advocates.
Do you play the Lottery? If not, are you aware of what it is? I hope so, because that's what I'm going to use as an example to illustrate my point.
In a typical lottery there are something like 60 million combinations of numbers, and only one number can be a winning number.
Let's say I pick 6 numbers and purchase a lottery ticket. That evening I watch the numbers being drawn, and I win!
Had I chosen just one number differently, even if it was the very next number (12 instead of 11, let's say), I would not have won the lottery.
So, was I "fine-tuned" to win the lottery, Jeff?
Of course not.
But even if I did win the lottery one day, it still wouldn't be enough to pay for the education you'd need to understand why your belief in your God, and all your silly illogical arguments, are worthless.
You don't understand what fine-tuned means. So let me describe it for you at a your grade level. Its like a race car that must have the right kind of gas to work properly. If you put water or oil in the tank it won't work. Or if you don't get this, then try baking a cake using motor oil and see what kind of cake you get. Even a cake is fine-tuned. How much more the universe.
Big Al

Grand Rapids, MN

#217 Apr 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't you read science books? The universe is not eternal. That means matter and energy are not either.
"The idea that space and time may form a closed surface without boundary also has profound implications for the role of God in the affairs of the universe....So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?" - Stephen Hawking, "A Brief History of Time" (New York: Bantam, 1988), p. 140-41.

Read a science book.

Since: Apr 13

Location hidden

#218 Apr 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't understand what fine-tuned means. So let me describe it for you at a your grade level. Its like a race car that must have the right kind of gas to work properly. If you put water or oil in the tank it won't work. Or if you don't get this, then try baking a cake using motor oil and see what kind of cake you get. Even a cake is fine-tuned. How much more the universe.
and you can't seem to comprehend that you need to prove your opinions and speculations, not just fling your dirty diaper around the room and hope some of the $hit sticks to the wall.

While you are at it, identify who fine tuned your creator....you seem to avoid answering that....and then realize there are 3000+ gods already man has created...

Since: Apr 13

Location hidden

#219 Apr 3, 2013
"We have found the fossilized remnants of bacterial life in meteors that we know originally came from Mars. "

that was not conclusive gillete....it is a hypothesis....
LGK

Sheffield, UK

#220 Apr 3, 2013
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
I wouldn't say an infinite universe is "impossible" but I would say it's unlikely, given the recent discovery of the Higgs boson.
I do agree that the idea of alien creatures from other worlds visiting Earth is nonsense. There may be life on other planets but we have zero evidence for that as of now, and we certainly have zero evidence that any of these alien life forms ever visited Earth.
That said, there is some good evidence for the theory of panspermia - that is, that life on Earth began after something from elsewhere managed to come to Earth, perhaps via a meteorite entering our atmosphere and crashing on Earth's surface.
Science is much more fascinating that religion, to me at least, because science is about always questioning everything whereas religion is about punishing people for questioning anything.
HIGGS BOSON: If the Higgs boson is in the universe then it is bound by the universe’s finitude. The reason it’s impossible for the universe to be infinite is that it had a beginning & undergoes change. For anything with those 2 properties to be infinite it would have traverse infinity & that’s the impossible bit.

PANSPERMIA: I’d like to see the evidence for this. A cynical view of the theory is it hides failure to explain origin of life by blasting the problem into outer space. It also smacks of “once upon a time somewhere far, far away” couched in scientific terms. But by all means let’s hear the evidence.

QUESTIONING: I can’t speak for other beliefs but Christianity is about questioning, for example:

• 1 Thes 5:2 –“Test everything..”
• 1 John 4 –“Test every spirit...
• 1 Peter 3:15 –“Always be prepared to give a defence..”

SCEINCE: I agree that science ought to be fascinating but these days there are things you just can’t question no matter what your evidence – Climate change & Evolutionism being prime examples. People get punished (lose their jobs) for questioning Evolutionism. Now you hear calls to arrest people who question global warming, that's really frightening.

Finally, I have lots of rational reasons for believing God exists which I could easily convey without having to resort to name-calling challengers. People are free to disagree but let it be for good reason. As I see it, ALL claim including that God exists or that He doesn’t ought to stand or fall on their merits. I can give defence for my side as Peter commanded.
LGK

Sheffield, UK

#221 Apr 3, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
"The idea that space and time may form a closed surface without boundary also has profound implications for the role of God in the affairs of the universe....So long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end: it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?" - Stephen Hawking, "A Brief History of Time" (New York: Bantam, 1988), p. 140-41.
Read a science book.
Didn't Hawking not use imaginary numbers to get his no boundary, edgeless universe? Imaginary numbers don't of course exist objectively. Yet, as we all know, the universe exists objectively. I hate to say it but Hawking sold us his imagination.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#222 Apr 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't understand what fine-tuned means. So let me describe it for you at a your grade level. Its like a race car that must have the right kind of gas to work properly. If you put water or oil in the tank it won't work. Or if you don't get this, then try baking a cake using motor oil and see what kind of cake you get. Even a cake is fine-tuned. How much more the universe.
You IDIOT. AGAIN you use human-made examples where we KNOW a cake was the intended design or a race car was the intended, etc.

The world shows no evidence of being intended.

What happened happened. If it had not happened or the environment were significantly different, we would not be talking here, that's all.

You cannot assume it was planned, based on any science evidence.

And it's certainly not evidence of your God.

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