"Iím saying GOD doesnít exist!"

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Big Al

Hibbing, MN

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#1164
Apr 12, 2013
 
ďYou have to believe in gods to see them.Ē ~ old Hopi Indian saying
LGK

Lancaster, UK

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#1165
Apr 12, 2013
 
Roland_Deschain wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't believe you. You started this conversation using the telelogical argument by William Paley, a Christian apologist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Paley
"William Paley (July 1743 Ė 25 May 1805) was an English Christian apologist, philosopher, and utilitarian."
<quoted text>
So what should we call someone who believes in the deity of the bible and thinks it created everything?
<quoted text>
What answers do you think you will get by making assumptions?
I can't recall my very early posts but I know I haven't explicitly laid out an argument such as Paley would have done. If I take a position for Paley or against, I will lay out my argument explicitly.

What I've been doing is clarifying what design is, whether or not it exists in nature. One cannot say there is design or there is no design unless one is very clear what design is. You recall I distinguished it from pattern. Next I decoupled the fact of design from the agency because in my experience people just argue about agency not fact. Supporters of agency say how good he is & detractors lob criticism of or at him.

The reason I shy away from names is because they are used in lieu of facts & sometimes pejoratively.

You ask what answers I will get by making assumptions: well I haven't made assumptions & if I have perhaps you could point them out. I specifically recall stating that there may be design in nature or there may not, that's not an assumptions & both options ought to be on the table.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

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#1167
Apr 12, 2013
 

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LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
I can't recall my very early posts but I know I haven't explicitly laid out an argument such as Paley would have done. If I take a position for Paley or against, I will lay out my argument explicitly.
What I've been doing is clarifying what design is, whether or not it exists in nature. One cannot say there is design or there is no design unless one is very clear what design is. You recall I distinguished it from pattern. Next I decoupled the fact of design from the agency because in my experience people just argue about agency not fact. Supporters of agency say how good he is & detractors lob criticism of or at him.
The reason I shy away from names is because they are used in lieu of facts & sometimes pejoratively.
You ask what answers I will get by making assumptions: well I haven't made assumptions & if I have perhaps you could point them out. I specifically recall stating that there may be design in nature or there may not, that's not an assumptions & both options ought to be on the table.
What in this universe does not qualify as designed?

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#1168
Apr 12, 2013
 

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LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
What in this universe does not qualify as designed?
If everything in the universe is designed, then your God is designed. And if he is designed, then so is the uber-God that designed him. And on and on, ad infinitum, which is why the entire design argument is a logical fallacy.

Evolution proves that nothing in nature is designed. Rather, nature tries different mutations. The ones that adapt flourish, and the ones that don't become extinct.

It's really that simple.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

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#1169
Apr 12, 2013
 
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
If everything in the universe is designed, then your God is designed. And if he is designed, then so is the uber-God that designed him. And on and on, ad infinitum, which is why the entire design argument is a logical fallacy.
Evolution proves that nothing in nature is designed. Rather, nature tries different mutations. The ones that adapt flourish, and the ones that don't become extinct.
It's really that simple.
If LGK thinks there is design, then there MUST be things that are not designed, which provides the contrast that allows one to identify design from not designed. I just want to know what LGK thinks isn't designed, and why it qualifies as not designed.
LGK

Lancaster, UK

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#1170
Apr 12, 2013
 
PRINCEOFDARKNESSLOVESYOU wrote:
"I specifically recall stating that there may be design in nature or there may not, that's not an assumptions & both options ought to be on the table."
by stating there may be design, you are making an assumption...based on zero evidence....and an option should be on the table when you can back it up with credible demonstrated proof, not hypothetical assumptions and extrapolations...
we can just as well say, we may have been brought here by aliens and then use your logic and say the options should be on the table.....
science uses the null hypothesis....
Science begins with the null hypothesis, which assumes that the claim under investigation is not true until demonstrated otherwise.
The statistical standards of evidence needed to reject the null hypothesis are substantial. Ideally, in a controlled experiment, we would like to be 95 to 99 percent confident that the results were not caused by chance before we offer our provisional assent that the effect may be real. Failure to reject the null hypothesis does not make the claim false, and, conversely, rejecting the null hypothesis is not a warranty on truth. Nevertheless, the scientific method is the best tool ever devised to discriminate between true and false patterns, to distinguish between reality and fantasy, and to detect baloney.
The null hypothesis means that the burden of proof is on the person asserting a positive claim, not on the skeptics to disprove it
What you've laid out is true of experimental science which uses inductive reasoning. This is not he only way to get answers from nature and is more appropriate for the question, how does X work. The question could X have arisen on the other hand is about what happened, not how do things work in the normal course of events? The latter question ie what, not how requires that options be laid on the table. For such questions, it is necessary to put options on the table otherwise there is nothing to investigate. The answer is arrived at by abductive, not deductive reasoning.

Most people here seem to think that science only is about operations science which you describe & for some reason are blind to or ignorant of historical or forensic science. If design exists in nature, it happened in the past which means you have to use historical, not operations science.

PS
I have heard people confuse historical science with history as in The Battle of Hastings, these are not the same.
LGK

Lancaster, UK

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#1171
Apr 12, 2013
 
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
If LGK thinks there is design, then there MUST be things that are not designed, which provides the contrast that allows one to identify design from not designed. I just want to know what LGK thinks isn't designed, and why it qualifies as not designed.
A pattern is not designed. A random sequence is not designed.

A design is a particular arrangement to achieve a function - there are 2 parts to it, the arrangement & the function. A pattern performs no function. This is the simplest way in which I can put it, it's obviously more complicated than that. How you doing with this, so far?

(Design is a bit like porn, sorry about this, everyone knows it when they see it but hardly anyone can define it)
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

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#1173
Apr 12, 2013
 

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LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
Most people here seem to think that science only is about operations science which you describe & for some reason are blind to or ignorant of historical or forensic science.
Wait, aren't YOU the one who has repeatedly said that we "weren't there way back in the past and nobody saw it happen originally, so how do you really know, etc."?

And now you change your tune and say WE are blind to historical or forensic science?

??????
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

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#1174
Apr 12, 2013
 

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LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
I can't recall my very early posts but I know I haven't explicitly laid out an argument such as Paley would have done. If I take a position for Paley or against, I will lay out my argument explicitly.
You CONSTANTLY have given examples of us finding on the road watches or knives or cars, etc. and don't we assume they are designed?

THAT'S PALEY'S ARGUMENT! You've been making it over and over. LOL

“Invisible Pink Unicorn”

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#1175
Apr 12, 2013
 

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dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you know of a better reason to serve God? Hell is a VERY nasty place to spend eternity.
Hebrews 10:31 (NKJV)
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Got my after life house all paid for.It's sits on the banks of a beer river made by the beer volcano a few miles up stream. It's still very cold when it comes in the house tap.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_23AkR8ORmz8/Scxa5h_...

“Invisible Pink Unicorn”

Since: May 08

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#1176
Apr 12, 2013
 
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know what the population of Saudi Arabia is but the probability of a given Saudi native flying a plane let alone into a building is minuscule. So no, if I was born in Saudi Arabia the Authorship of any ancient book Plato and all would not be affected one aota. You have made a mathematical error & a logical error in one. The logical error is you ascribe causal relationship to two events for which none exists nor could.
On a different note, did you that according to the BBC website & the Guardian at least, 9 of the alleged Saudi hijackers are still alive? Google it for your self with something like '9-11 hijackers still alive.' Now what's the probability of flying an aircraft into a building & being alive & well a few days later? There is another probability calculation for you - have fun!!
WOW, What I was getting at was that if you were born in Saudi Arabia you would be a Muslim. Guess that too went over your head.

One more thing that story on BBC of 9 hijackers being still alive.NOPE!!! There's a detail often missing in references to the BBCs story on this issue, too. They've subsequently said it was all just confusion over identities.
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Hijackers_s...

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#1177
Apr 12, 2013
 

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Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
Wait, aren't YOU the one who has repeatedly said that we "weren't there way back in the past and nobody saw it happen originally, so how do you really know, etc."?
And now you change your tune and say WE are blind to historical or forensic science?
??????
Fundies will change their arguments as needed to give the impression that they are correct in their beliefs. In other wods, fundies lie.

“"God is Good"”

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#1178
Apr 12, 2013
 
tickedoffchic wrote:
<quoted text>
Fundies will change their arguments as needed to give the impression that they are correct in their beliefs. In other wods, fundies lie.
You are the liar.

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#1179
Apr 12, 2013
 
PRINCEOFDARKNESSLOVESYOU wrote:
<quoted text>
put your hat on and go play with your crucifix....mommy will give you cookies and milk ...and say your prayers....
http://imageshack.us/a/img98/1201/propeller.j...
Don't have a "crucifix". Wrong as usual.

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#1180
Apr 12, 2013
 
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
I also know for a fact that a five-sided square doesn't exist.
A totally ignorant comparison.

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#1181
Apr 12, 2013
 
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
YOU are the liar. You claim your God exists and you have no proof.
That makes you a liar since you can't prove He doesn't exist.

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#1182
Apr 12, 2013
 
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
You do realize, don't you, that you're not frightening anyone?
I'm getting plenty of replies, including yours.

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#1183
Apr 12, 2013
 
PRINCEOFDARKNESSLOVESYOU wrote:
<quoted text>
yep, dollartard is miserable, lives in constant fear of his fabricated fairy in the sky, and wants everyone to be miserable as well....standard for fundies....
Since you're so concerned with my posts maybe there's hope for you. Maybe not.

“Invisible Pink Unicorn”

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#1184
Apr 12, 2013
 
dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
That makes you a liar since you can't prove He doesn't exist.
LOL, can't prove the tooth fairy don't exist nopr can you prove Thor don't exist.

“Invisible Pink Unicorn”

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#1185
Apr 12, 2013
 
dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm getting plenty of replies, including yours.
You humor me. I can't wait to see the next crazy thing to come out of the three brains stacked in your skull.

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