"I’m saying GOD doesn’t exist!"
LGK

Thornton Heath, UK

#566 Apr 6, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
If you could read the Bible and predict events that will happen in the future with statistically significant accuracy that would demonstrate the validity of Bible prophecy , but if you merely match events that have already happened to Bible passages that is merely hindsight bias. People that believe in astrology routinely use hindsight bias to fit their horoscope predictions to actual events in their lives, while scientific studies show that there is no scientific validity to astrological predictions.
“Men become superstitious not because they have too much imagination, but because they are not aware they have any.”– George Santayana
Just because the £5.00 note in my pocket is fake, it doesn't follow the one in your pocket is also fake. It also doesn't mean all £5.00 notes are fake & there are no real ones. Similarly, existence of astrology does not mean no prophecy exists. My point is to shift discussion away from red-herrings ie people believe in astrology therefore x,y,z to an open examination of Bible prophecy. The Bible either has prophecy or it doesn't, that astrology exists is irrelevant.

With the above said, are you prepared to look at whether or not the Bible has prophecy? Like I said, it either does or it does not & if you are prepared to look with that frame of mind I'm happy to oblige.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#567 Apr 6, 2013
angelfromhell1 wrote:
<quoted text>
still floating on your river of denial......I already proved my points.. so far, you have proved jack $hit....
go ahead, show us originals of the bible, show us the authors and proof, explain all the errors and contradictions and best yet, show us a credible reference to any jesus outside the bible.. you can't even tell us what your phony jewish zombie god looked like...no pictures, drawings, statues and he couldn't even read or write.... your kind of god....bwhahahahhahahahhaha
Let me help you out even further. Here are 20 Confirmed or Historically Probable Facts in the Gospel of John:

The facts and details are as follows:

1. Archaeology confirms the use of stone water jars in New Testament times [John 2:6].

2. Given the early Christian tendency towards asceticism, the wine miracle is an unlikely invention [2:8].

3. Archaeology confirms the proper place of Jacob's Well [4:6].

4. Josephus [Wars of the Jews 2.232] confirms there was significant hostility between Jews and Samaritans during Jesus' time [4:9].

5. "Come down" accurately describes the topography of western Galilee.[There's a significant elevation drop from Cana to Capernaum.][4:46, 49, 51].

6. "Went up" accurately describes the ascent to Jerusalem [5:1].

7. Archaeology confirms the proper location of Bethesda [5:2].[Excavations between 1914 and 1938 uncovered that pool and found it to be just as John described it. Since that structure did not exist after the Romans destroyed the city in A.D. 70, it's unlikely any later non-eyewitness could have described it in such vivid detail. Moreover, John says that this structure "is in Jerusalem," implying that he's writing before 70].

8. Jesus' own testimony being invalid without the Father is an unlikely Christian invention [5:31]; a later redactor would be eager to highlight Jesus' divinity and would probably make his witness self-authenticating.

9. The crowds wanting to make Jesus king reflects the well-known nationalist fervor of early first-century Israel [6:15].

10. Sudden and severe squalls are common on the Sea of Galilee [6:18].

11. Christ's command to eat his flesh and drink his blood would not be made up [6:53].

12. The rejection of Jesus by many of his disciples is also an unlikely invention [6:66].

13. The two predominant opinions of Jesus, one that Jesus was a "good man" and the other that he "deceives people," would not be the two choices John would have made up [7:12]; a later Christian writer would have probably inserted the opinion that Jesus was God.

14. The charge of Jesus being demon-possessed is an unlikely invention [7:20].

15. The use of "Samaritan" to slander Jesus befits the hostility between Jews and Samaritans [8:48].

16. Jewish believers wanting to stone Jesus is an unlikely invention [8:31, 59].

17. Archaeology confirms the existence and location of the Pool of Siloam [9:7].

18. Expulsion from the synagogue by the Pharisees was a legitimate fear of the Jews; notice that the healed man professes his faith in Jesus only after he is expelled from the synagogue by the Pharisees [9:13-39], at which point he has nothing to lose. This rings of authenticity.

19. The healed man calling Jesus a "prophet" rather than anything more lofty suggests the incident is unembellished history [9:17].

20. During a winter feast, Jesus walked in Solomon's Colonnade, which was the only side of the temple area shielded from the cold winter east wind [10:22-23]; this area is mentioned several times by Josephus."

"59 Confirmed or Historically Probable Facts in the Gospel of John

Craig Blomberg's The Historical Reliability of John's Gospel"

Hope this helps.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#568 Apr 6, 2013
angelfromhell1 wrote:
<quoted text>
still floating on your river of denial......I already proved my points.. so far, you have proved jack $hit....
go ahead, show us originals of the bible, show us the authors and proof, explain all the errors and contradictions and best yet, show us a credible reference to any jesus outside the bible.. you can't even tell us what your phony jewish zombie god looked like...no pictures, drawings, statues and he couldn't even read or write.... your kind of god....bwhahahahhahahahhaha
Let me help you out further with more facts.
The facts and details are as follows:

1. Archaeology confirms the use of stone water jars in New Testament times [John 2:6].

2. Given the early Christian tendency towards asceticism, the wine miracle is an unlikely invention [2:8].

3. Archaeology confirms the proper place of Jacob's Well [4:6].

4. Josephus [Wars of the Jews 2.232] confirms there was significant hostility between Jews and Samaritans during Jesus' time [4:9].

5. "Come down" accurately describes the topography of western Galilee.[There's a significant elevation drop from Cana to Capernaum.][4:46, 49, 51].

6. "Went up" accurately describes the ascent to Jerusalem [5:1].

7. Archaeology confirms the proper location of Bethesda [5:2].[Excavations between 1914 and 1938 uncovered that pool and found it to be just as John described it. Since that structure did not exist after the Romans destroyed the city in A.D. 70, it's unlikely any later non-eyewitness could have described it in such vivid detail. Moreover, John says that this structure "is in Jerusalem," implying that he's writing before 70].

8. Jesus' own testimony being invalid without the Father is an unlikely Christian invention [5:31]; a later redactor would be eager to highlight Jesus' divinity and would probably make his witness self-authenticating.

9. The crowds wanting to make Jesus king reflects the well-known nationalist fervor of early first-century Israel [6:15].

10. Sudden and severe squalls are common on the Sea of Galilee [6:18].

11. Christ's command to eat his flesh and drink his blood would not be made up [6:53].

12. The rejection of Jesus by many of his disciples is also an unlikely invention [6:66].

13. The two predominant opinions of Jesus, one that Jesus was a "good man" and the other that he "deceives people," would not be the two choices John would have made up [7:12]; a later Christian writer would have probably inserted the opinion that Jesus was God.

14. The charge of Jesus being demon-possessed is an unlikely invention [7:20].

15. The use of "Samaritan" to slander Jesus befits the hostility between Jews and Samaritans [8:48].

16. Jewish believers wanting to stone Jesus is an unlikely invention [8:31, 59].

17. Archaeology confirms the existence and location of the Pool of Siloam [9:7].

18. Expulsion from the synagogue by the Pharisees was a legitimate fear of the Jews; notice that the healed man professes his faith in Jesus only after he is expelled from the synagogue by the Pharisees [9:13-39], at which point he has nothing to lose. This rings of authenticity.

19. The healed man calling Jesus a "prophet" rather than anything more lofty suggests the incident is unembellished history [9:17].

20. During a winter feast, Jesus walked in Solomon's Colonnade, which was the only side of the temple area shielded from the cold winter east wind [10:22-23]; this area is mentioned several times by Josephus."

Taken from "59 Confirmed or Historically Probable Facts in the Gospel of John

Craig Blomberg's The Historical Reliability of John's Gospel examines John's Gospel"
LGK

Thornton Heath, UK

#569 Apr 6, 2013
Roland_Deschain wrote:
<quoted text>
I never heard of it until now. I've had a quick look on Wiki, it's not helped much.
OK. Some things are more than themselves and in addition are about something else. For example, a blue-print for a Rolex is more than just the lines, squiggles or text on the paper - it's about a specific watch. The blu-print is said to have aboutness, or ofness ie it's a blue-print of ....,(it is of something). Another word for aboutness & ofness is representation, the blue-print represents ......

Now the link between the object that represents & what it represents (is about, is of) is always an intention. Our Rolex blue-print always starts off as an intention, it is therefore said to have the property of INTENTIONALITY. That's the idea of intentionality. I hope I've explained it well enough, it's important to how I changed from atheist to the theist (there were other reasons, but that was the start). Have I made sense so far?
Big Al

Grand Rapids, MN

#570 Apr 6, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
What specific prophecies do the Muslims and the Hindus see fulfilled? Give me some examples so I know what you are talking about.
You have to be either arrogant or ignorant to believe that only your religious tradition claims prophecy.

“Prophecy is by no means new or limited to any one culture. It is a common property to all known ancient societies around the world, some more than others.”-- Wikipedia

"And He has created horses and mules and asses that you may ride them, and as a source of beauty. And He will create what you do not yet know." (16:9)

Muslims consider this verse a prophecy that people, specially those living in deserts, have now abandoned camels and other animals for travelling.– Hindsight bias

Roland_Deschain

“Naturalism - Nature is Enough”

Since: Nov 07

UK

#571 Apr 6, 2013
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
OK. Some things are more than themselves and in addition are about something else. For example, a blue-print for a Rolex is more than just the lines, squiggles or text on the paper - it's about a specific watch. The blu-print is said to have aboutness, or ofness ie it's a blue-print of ....,(it is of something). Another word for aboutness & ofness is representation, the blue-print represents ......
Now the link between the object that represents & what it represents (is about, is of) is always an intention. Our Rolex blue-print always starts off as an intention, it is therefore said to have the property of INTENTIONALITY. That's the idea of intentionality. I hope I've explained it well enough, it's important to how I changed from atheist to the theist (there were other reasons, but that was the start). Have I made sense so far?
I understand so far.
Big Al

Grand Rapids, MN

#572 Apr 6, 2013
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
Just because the £5.00 note in my pocket is fake, it doesn't follow the one in your pocket is also fake. It also doesn't mean all £5.00 notes are fake & there are no real ones. Similarly, existence of astrology does not mean no prophecy exists. My point is to shift discussion away from red-herrings ie people believe in astrology therefore x,y,z to an open examination of Bible prophecy. The Bible either has prophecy or it doesn't, that astrology exists is irrelevant.
With the above said, are you prepared to look at whether or not the Bible has prophecy? Like I said, it either does or it does not & if you are prepared to look with that frame of mind I'm happy to oblige.
The amount of scientific evidence supporting the validity of Bible prophecy is exactly equal to the amount of scientific evidence supporting the validity of astrological predictions.
Gillette

Packwood, IA

#573 Apr 6, 2013
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
How does Finkelstein account for the fulfilled prophecy in the Bible?
He is uninterested, because there ISN'T ANY.

Read "Bible Prophecy: Failure or Fulfillment?" by Tim Callahan
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Prophecy-Fulfillm...

From the Amazon description:
"Tim Callahan has done the rational thing and examined hundreds of verses from the Bible claimed to be "prophecy" to see if they meet four simple tests:

1) Is it true, false, or too vague to be specifically interpreted?

2) If true, was it written before or after the fact?

3) If written before the fact, was its fullfillment something that could be logically predicted based on the knowledge of the time?

4) Was the prophecy directly or deliberately fulfilled by someone with knowledge of the prophecy?

There is not a single "Bible prophecy" that meets these four tests.
LGK

Thornton Heath, UK

#575 Apr 6, 2013
Roland_Deschain wrote:
<quoted text>
I understand so far.
Great stuff. Now you will agree that if anything, anything at all - doesn't matter what or where - has aboutness, ofness or representation, the link between the object & what it's about or represents arose by intention. Next is that only minds can intend - rocks, bare molecules etc cannot intend. Behind every intention is a mind.

So should we find representation in nature we must conclude it was created by a mind, no exceptions or exemptions. An acorn is not the oak tree but a representation of it, mouse DNA is not the mouse but a representation of it, the chain with 120 amino acids that fold into Haemoglobin is not Haemoglobin but a representation of it, a map of Washington is not Washington etc, etc.

If we are consistent we must conclude an acorn, mouse DNA & amino acid chain in the body were created by an intention ie a mind. We can speculate whose mind created mouse DNA, the DNA doesn't tell us that but obviously it came about somewhere along the line from a mind. Agreed?

Since: Apr 13

Location hidden

#576 Apr 6, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
There are no originals for any ancient works (documents) of the ancient. For example we have no original works of Plato. The earliest copy is over 500 years after his death. For the life of Christ scholars believe the gospels were written within 50-70 years of the events. The earliest fragment dates to around 110.
For historical 'mentions' of Jesus
• Thallus (c. 50-75ad)
• Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews, c.93)
• Letter from Pliny the Younger to Trajan (c. 110)
• Tacitus (Annals, c.115-120)
• Suetonius (Lives of the Caesars, c. 125)
• Galen (various writings, c.150)
• Celsus (True Discourse, c.170).
• Mara Bar Serapion (pre-200?)
• Talmudic References( written after 300 CE, but some refs probably go back to eyewitnesses)
"• FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS (AD 37?-101?) MENTIONS JAMES, THE BROTHER OF JESUS - ANTIQUITIES, BOOK 20, CH. 19.
o "Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others,[or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done."
mental giant that you are, none of those folks ever met jesus and josephus was born after jesus'.. never met him and his writing are not credible... next time investigate before you babble crap...

Scholars have differing opinions on the total or partial authenticity of the reference in Book 18, Chapter 3, 3 of the Antiquities to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate, a passage usually called the Testimonium Flavianum.[12][1] The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety

The works of Josephus refer to at least twenty different people with the name Jesus, and in chapter 9 of Book 20, there is also a reference to Jesus son of Damneus who was a High Priest of Israe

Since: Apr 13

Location hidden

#578 Apr 6, 2013
as to the issue of the gospels, there are no originals and the authors are unknown, so don't try to tell us there is anything credible about it....and we haven't even touched on the errors and contradictions...let alone the supernatural bull$hit..

and since there is no supernatural, that tells us you have a book of myths and legends...
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#579 Apr 6, 2013
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
Great stuff. Now you will agree that if anything, anything at all - doesn't matter what or where - has aboutness, ofness or representation, the link between the object & what it's about or represents arose by intention. Next is that only minds can intend - rocks, bare molecules etc cannot intend. Behind every intention is a mind.
So should we find representation in nature we must conclude it was created by a mind, no exceptions or exemptions. An acorn is not the oak tree but a representation of it, mouse DNA is not the mouse but a representation of it, the chain with 120 amino acids that fold into Haemoglobin is not Haemoglobin but a representation of it, a map of Washington is not Washington etc, etc.
If we are consistent we must conclude an acorn, mouse DNA & amino acid chain in the body were created by an intention ie a mind. We can speculate whose mind created mouse DNA, the DNA doesn't tell us that but obviously it came about somewhere along the line from a mind. Agreed?
Uh...no. Wrong.
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#580 Apr 6, 2013
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
Retrofits are not prophecy so lets keep psychiatrists out of this, at least for now. I'm talking about what actually came to pass.
Retro-fits - which is what Xtian doctrine is!
LGK

Thornton Heath, UK

#581 Apr 6, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
The amount of scientific evidence supporting the validity of Bible prophecy is exactly equal to the amount of scientific evidence supporting the validity of astrological predictions.
This is nothing to do with scientific evidence, operations science at least. Operations science is about repeatable experiments & events of human history are not repeatable. If Stalin predicted fall of the Berlin Wall, you can't get him to repeat the prediction neither can you repeat collapse of the Berlin Wall. But if Stalin prophesied collapse of the Wall before he died in 1953 & it collapsed in 1991, you can definitely say Stalin's prophecy was accurate. You do not need science to do that, in fact science would be inappropriate like measuring weight with a ruler.

We can safely put aside "scientific evidence" in investigating whether the Bible has accurate prophecy or not just like we can safely discard our tape measures if we are trying to measure weight. So back to the original question & having discarded red-herrings like "scientific evidence," are you prepared to look if the Bible has prophecy or not? Either it has or it doesn't, it's that simple: Are you prepared?
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#582 Apr 6, 2013
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
Just because the £5.00 note in my pocket is fake, it doesn't follow the one in your pocket is also fake. It also doesn't mean all £5.00 notes are fake & there are no real ones. Similarly, existence of astrology does not mean no prophecy exists. My point is to shift discussion away from red-herrings ie people believe in astrology therefore x,y,z to an open examination of Bible prophecy. The Bible either has prophecy or it doesn't, that astrology exists is irrelevant.
With the above said, are you prepared to look at whether or not the Bible has prophecy? Like I said, it either does or it does not & if you are prepared to look with that frame of mind I'm happy to oblige.
It was all written post-events. And now Xtians like you love to force-fit events to alleged prophecy. Its laughable.
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#583 Apr 6, 2013
Phoenix wrote:
<quoted text>
I was quite clear: refer to Hebrew bible.
It will clear all confusion on biblical topics.
No, you were never clear.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#584 Apr 6, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
You have to be either arrogant or ignorant to believe that only your religious tradition claims prophecy.
“Prophecy is by no means new or limited to any one culture. It is a common property to all known ancient societies around the world, some more than others.”-- Wikipedia
"And He has created horses and mules and asses that you may ride them, and as a source of beauty. And He will create what you do not yet know." (16:9)
Muslims consider this verse a prophecy that people, specially those living in deserts, have now abandoned camels and other animals for travelling.– Hindsight bias
What makes you think these are prophecies? Where are the specifics for this prophecies?

Th OT made some very specific predictions about Christ that in no way could be faked. Isaiah 53 is one such example of a specific prophecy about Christ. The destruction of the temple by Christ was literally fulfilled in 70 ad.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#585 Apr 6, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>Retro-fits - which is what Xtian doctrine is!
Rubbish.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#586 Apr 6, 2013
angelfromhell1 wrote:
<quoted text>
mental giant that you are, none of those folks ever met jesus and josephus was born after jesus'.. never met him and his writing are not credible... next time investigate before you babble crap...
Scholars have differing opinions on the total or partial authenticity of the reference in Book 18, Chapter 3, 3 of the Antiquities to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate, a passage usually called the Testimonium Flavianum.[12][1] The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety
The works of Josephus refer to at least twenty different people with the name Jesus, and in chapter 9 of Book 20, there is also a reference to Jesus son of Damneus who was a High Priest of Israe
Ok. Then you need to reject all of ancient history by your reckoning. Let's start with Alexander the Great. There are no eyewitness accounts for him. The first bio of him was first penned about 400 years after his death.

Let me know when you are ready to tells you reject all of ancient history.
Big Al

Grand Rapids, MN

#587 Apr 6, 2013
LGK wrote:
<quoted text>
This is nothing to do with scientific evidence, operations science at least. Operations science is about repeatable experiments & events of human history are not repeatable. If Stalin predicted fall of the Berlin Wall, you can't get him to repeat the prediction neither can you repeat collapse of the Berlin Wall. But if Stalin prophesied collapse of the Wall before he died in 1953 & it collapsed in 1991, you can definitely say Stalin's prophecy was accurate. You do not need science to do that, in fact science would be inappropriate like measuring weight with a ruler.
We can safely put aside "scientific evidence" in investigating whether the Bible has accurate prophecy or not just like we can safely discard our tape measures if we are trying to measure weight. So back to the original question & having discarded red-herrings like "scientific evidence," are you prepared to look if the Bible has prophecy or not? Either it has or it doesn't, it's that simple: Are you prepared?
One accurate guess does not validate the existence of a supernatural ability to predict the future.

“The root of all superstition is that men observe when a thing hits, but not when it misses.”- Francis Bacon

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