The Parable of Job...................

The Parable of Job...................

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JJJ

Australia

#1 May 29, 2011
#1

There are several reasons that give proof that the account of job was just a story and not literal.

Becuase I'm a parent I especially feel the need to point out the order in which job was tested....

Obviously the stroy teller has listed the attacks in order of the least severe and there fore less likely to succeed to the more severe...

The first was the attack on Job’s material possessions including his children. With god’s permission to do so, Satan caused all of Job’s possessions INCLUDING HIS TEN CHILDREN to be taken from him in an attempt to see if Job would curse god.

When that failed the devil came back to god and more or less said “Well okay that did not work but if you let me attack Job himself, his physical person then I know for sure he will curse you (god) to your face”, and when god gave his permission to Satan to do just that, Satan attacked Job afflicting him from head to toe with disgusting and the most painful boils.

Now can anyone see something wrong in this scenario?

DOES ANY PARENT SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH THE SEQUENCE IN WHICH Job was tested?
JJJ

Australia

#2 May 29, 2011
#2

As a parent I would divide the attack on Job into not two areas but THREE and I would rearrange the order of the tests differently to that of the bible in the sense of what was more likely to break Job’s integrity when the first test failed.

What are the three categories of losses that as a parent I feel Job was subjected to?

1. THE LOSS OF HIS MATERIAL POSSESSIONS

2.THE LOSS OF HIS PERSONAL GOOD HEALTH AND WELL BEING WHEN HE WAS AFFLICTED WITH PAINFUL BOILS

3.THE LOSS OF HIS CHILDREN.

Surely every parent agrees with me that the most severe test of Job’s integrity toward god that Job could face would have been the loss of his children and not the attack on his physical person.

If the account of Job was literal then the devil would have first asked god for permission to attack and take all Job owned (and his children would not have been listed along with his cattle, camels and sheep) and when that failed he would have come back to god and said....

"okay sure that failed but let me attack his physical person and then he will curse you and when that failed THEN he would have come back and with the most severe test to put to Job would have said to god….“okay that failed but give me permission to kill his children and I’m certain that then he will curse to his face….."

If we are to accept that the account is literal then I have to accept that in god and the devil’s minds…… they both think that parents view their children as possessions to be listed along with camels and goats and worse……. that we parents value our own well being over the well being of our children.
JJJ

Australia

#3 May 29, 2011
#3

The other thing that I would have to accept if the account was literal…….

That the evil that befell Job only occurred because a loving god gave the devil permission to commit those terrible attacks on Job and worse, the reason that god gave permission for the devil to do what he did……… was simply to answer Satan’s dare.

IS THERE ONE CHRISTIAN THAT WILL STATE THAT IN HIS ATTACKS AGAINST JOB SATAN ACTED WITHOUT DIRECT AUTHORITY FROM GOD?

The devil challenged Job’s integrity and in an attempt to prove it, Satan dared god to give him permission to attack job to find out if Job would hold fast to his integrity.

IS THIS REALLY WHO WE SEE GOD TO BE? ONE WHO CAN BE DARED, PUSHED OR PROVOKED INTO ALLOWING SATAN TO COMMIT MURDER JUST TO PROVE A POINT?

How can any of us seriously reconcile these actions to a god of love? If the account of Job is literal then god IS directly responsible for the devil’s attacks on Job.

On both occasions, before Satan attacked Job he had to formerly petition god for permission to do so and it was only with god’s stated permission did the devil proceed with those attacks.

If the account is real then we also have to accept that while Jesus as a mere mortal was able to resist the devil’s dares not twice but three times, that Jehovah either could not resist the devil or WORSE, voluntarily chose not to resist Satan’s dares.
JJJ

Australia

#4 May 29, 2011
As proof of how illogical and blasé most Christians have become when they consider the bible......

when they refer to the account of Job they are able to dismiss the worst pain and suffering that a parent can experience, that of burying your own children with the notion that Job was okay got ten more children.

Well if you can believe that then you know nothing of natural love and affection.

Nothing can ever replace a lost a child and god, if he is what the bibel states he is.....

When giving Satan permission to kill Job’s children would have known that so how can we believe he would have permitted this evil to happen to job just to answer a dare?

Job is just an ancient fable, a Persian parable designed to teach a moral lesson.... even the way it ends gives evidence of this...

"And in the end Job was restored with ten times more than he lost and lived happily ever after"

Sounds like a story to me.
mina

Randburg, South Africa

#5 May 29, 2011
realy jjj if God being the God of Love who would blame him if he can end totaly this earth project and the angel project? Who can put him to court and to finaly sentence him to jail? Maybe you know the answer but i don't. All im trying to say is that you need to know that God is doing us a big big big favour by letting us breath an once of air. Everything he does he does by his own and no one can tell him otherwise. I think we should consider this "come lets reason together. Though your sins may be as scarlet. They shall be as snow." for a being so high and mighty to say that, we must know that that is an undeserved favour.

I accept Job's story to be true. If i dont, then all this existance is not worth it. I gues he means it when he says "love your God with all your might your Mind" which means, love him even more than you loved your self.

“theholychristian church.com”

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#6 May 30, 2011
JJJ wrote:
#1
There are several reasons that give proof that the account of job DOES ANY PARENT SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH THE SEQUENCE IN WHICH Job was tested?
See anything wrong would be judging GOD? What a stupid question. All God does is good and rightious: our opinion does not count!

----------

The Gospel is not the way you see it: it is the way it is.

Calling The Unbeliever, Confronting The Lukewarm, Exposing The Hypocrite
Do Not Follow Men, Nor Churches! Come to Christ, says God!
http://www.theholychristianchurch.com/christi...
http://www.theholychristianchurch.com/repenta...

Murder: the unauthorized (by God) killing of a creature
Killing: the authorized (by God) putting to death of a creature

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#7 May 30, 2011
But if some people think, that Id is God and do Id is nice, because all is Id and they are best in Id... Id is Black Hole side of universe and It doesent see anything bad in be balck hole. Will. Who tell this and die...

“Search For Truth”

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#8 May 30, 2011
Cliff09 wrote:
<quoted text>
See anything wrong would be judging GOD? What a stupid question. All God does is good and rightious: our opinion does not count!
----------
The Gospel is not the way you see it: it is the way it is.
Calling The Unbeliever, Confronting The Lukewarm, Exposing The Hypocrite
Do Not Follow Men, Nor Churches! Come to Christ, says God!
http://www.theholychristianchurch.com/christi...
http://www.theholychristianchurch.com/repenta...
Murder: the unauthorized (by God) killing of a creature
Killing: the authorized (by God) putting to death of a creature
You don't have an opinion, that's way.

“Search For Truth”

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#9 May 30, 2011
I have said all along. It is the most stupid story of the Bible.

The idiots who wrote it tried to present a moral story by making God placing bets with Satan out of pride, whilst at the same time killing the family of a righteous person, for no reason whatsoever, apart from God wanting to prove to Satan that Job was loyal to Him. In effect, the writers present God as being conned by Satan.

And as JJJ stated, they presented the hardships in accordance with their time's values. Kids, cattle, sheep, you know, the same thing. This is proved in the end, where Job had "replacement" kids, as if nothing wrong happened. He acquired many more sheep and more children. Wow!!

Since: Aug 08

Somewhere in Ireland

#10 May 30, 2011
mina wrote:
realy jjj if God being the God of Love who would blame him if he can end totaly this earth project and the angel project? Who can put him to court and to finaly sentence him to jail? Maybe you know the answer but i don't. All im trying to say is that you need to know that God is doing us a big big big favour by letting us breath an once of air. Everything he does he does by his own and no one can tell him otherwise. I think we should consider this "come lets reason together. Though your sins may be as scarlet. They shall be as snow." for a being so high and mighty to say that, we must know that that is an undeserved favour.
I accept Job's story to be true. If i dont, then all this existance is not worth it. I gues he means it when he says "love your God with all your might your Mind" which means, love him even more than you loved your self.
You accept the yarn about Job as true because you are stupid. You are so typical of Christians who believe in a god that committed atrocities that would make Hitler look like a boy scout, yet think those atrocities are just fine and dandy simply because, godidit!

“Search For Truth”

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#11 May 30, 2011
par five wrote:
<quoted text>
You accept the yarn about Job as true because you are stupid. You are so typical of Christians who believe in a god that committed atrocities that would make Hitler look like a boy scout, yet think those atrocities are just fine and dandy simply because, godidit!
Incredible stupidity!

In their effort to believe that the bible is true, they lose their logic and can not understand that sometimes the bible itself defames God.
Thinking

March, UK

#12 May 30, 2011
The story details many preconditions laid down by god.
So the story also implies that satan follows god's orders.
Alphabet wrote:
I have said all along. It is the most stupid story of the Bible.
The idiots who wrote it tried to present a moral story by making God placing bets with Satan out of pride, whilst at the same time killing the family of a righteous person, for no reason whatsoever, apart from God wanting to prove to Satan that Job was loyal to Him. In effect, the writers present God as being conned by Satan.
And as JJJ stated, they presented the hardships in accordance with their time's values. Kids, cattle, sheep, you know, the same thing. This is proved in the end, where Job had "replacement" kids, as if nothing wrong happened. He acquired many more sheep and more children. Wow!!

“Search For Truth”

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#13 May 30, 2011
Thinking wrote:
The story details many preconditions laid down by god.
So the story also implies that satan follows god's orders.
<quoted text>
Of course. So the story further implies that all the hardships and evil thoughts that believers claim they are originating from satan, they are in fact caused with God's permission.
Thinking

March, UK

#14 May 30, 2011
I've nothing to add to your words on this subject, other than to reiterate my surprise that this book made it into the bible. It's a puzzle.
Alphabet wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course. So the story further implies that all the hardships and evil thoughts that believers claim they are originating from satan, they are in fact caused with God's permission.
JJJ

Australia

#15 May 30, 2011
Cliff09 wrote:
<quoted text>
See anything wrong would be judging GOD? What a stupid question. All God does is good and rightious: our opinion does not count!
Questioning is not judging.

Did not Abraham question god's judgment in regard to the supposed destruction of Daodm & Gommorah?

And what's more not only did god not reprimand Abraham but by stating he would spare the city if Abraham could find a righteous man he indicated that if indeed he (god) could be shown that his judgement was wrong he would adjust his thinking....

We are also told not to just to accept scripture but test every inspired utterance......

And this....
Cliff09 wrote:
<: our opinion does not count!
is just total ignorance.....

Everything to do with belief in god is all about opinion.

No..... you don't agree.... then explain why there are over 38,000 registered denominations of christianity alone?

Of course it is all about opinion...... the entire concept of god is outside the realm of human experience so while our 'opinions' are influenced by the culture we are born into, the religion of our parents, the 'holy' books we subscribe to and what we are taught....

As evidenced by all the different faiths that final leap to god is all about personal opinion and the truth is that we have created god in our image and not the other way around...

As such god then has to represent the very highest principles and ideals that man can both collectively and individually aspire to let alone achieve.....which means that our concept of god should be of a moral level that is above our own set of morals....

Now I don't know about your morals...... but my morals would never allow anyone at all let alone a lesser being to DARE, PUSH, TRICK OR PROVOKE me into allowing them to attack anyone and kill their children....anyone at all but most certainly not someone who I know to be a good righteous person.
JJJ

Australia

#16 May 30, 2011
Alphabet wrote:
I In effect, the writers present God as being conned by Satan.!!
par five wrote:
<quoted text>
You accept the yarn about Job as true because you are stupid. You are so typical of Christians who believe in a god that committed atrocities that would make Hitler look like a boy scout, yet think those atrocities are just fine and dandy simply because, godidit!
Alphabet wrote:
<In their effort to believe that the bible is true, they lose their logic and can not understand that sometimes the bible itself defames God.
To borrow a religious term...... AMEN.
JJJ

Australia

#17 May 30, 2011
I often upset people when I state that the god of the OT is guitly of the most terrible atrocities....

In the account of job and the test of Abraham....those two men had to face the worst pain that a parent can endure.....

Seeing the death of their own children and most christians don't even blink an eye...they treat it as par for the course.....insanity!

Can we imgaine coming home and telling our partner that one of our children has died and carrying on the chirade for quite a few hours and then yelling 'April Fool'.... would we ever do that?

And yet we believe that god put Abraham through just that. Heb 11:17 tells us that he as good as offered up Isaac..... in other words he had gone through the decision making process suffered all that anguish of killing his own son to be told "Just trickin ya'

Again....the account is a fable, a parable..... a pretty sick one in my opinion but I find it almost criminally insane tthat so many accept it as literal and see no fault with god....

That alone tells me that most religioius, at least fundamentalists including Christians are deluded...

I'm an accountant and one of my clients is the head of religious studies for the Catholic Church in this area and in discussing this she said....

"Educated Catholics accept that much of the bible, especially Adam & Eve, Abraham, Job and Jonah and the like are just parables"

There is nothing wrong in believing in a god or desiring a god to worship...

But when we choose a god like the god of the OT and accept the things that bible accuses him of doing and still praise and wish to worship to him...

That is really scary and a sad statement about the mentality of many.
Dave Perez

United States

#18 Jun 10, 2013
Thread is long dead, but fwiw:

The Book of Job itself TELLS the reader that the story is a parable in Job 1:1, beginning with the Hebraic equivalent of "once upon a time": it says, "a man there was".

Note the word order, "object, subject, verb": that's a change from the typical Hebrew syntax of "verb, subject, object". THAT'S the clue that is often literally lost in translation, as that word order is used to indicate parable/myth/fable (as in 2nd Sam 12:1, 2 Kings 14:9).

Hence we have Xians who believe that Job was an actual historical person, when the prose is telling readers the exact opposite.

So, how many OTHER characters depicted in the Bible do you believe as literal historic figures, simply because that's what your pastor tells you? Due to perpetuation of ignorance of literary conventions from 3,000 yrs ago?

BTW, it's likely the story of Job is the result of multiple authors, spanning centuries, where evidence from literary analysis indicates the composer of the prose prologue/epilogue section and the speech of Elihu are both late additions to the poetic core, the effect being to undermine the message delivered by the poet.

This should be apparent, since the prologue presents the scene in Heaven where Satan is authorized by YHWH to inflict harm on blameless Job just to see if he'd break. That's it: no other reason but to put blameless and righteous Job to the test.

However, YHWH's later defense of claiming to work in mysterious ways that Job cannot understand undermines the argument, and might make sense if the intro wasn't there. But it is, and readers can fully understand why Job is undergoing suffering, so why couldn't Job? It's insulting and patronizing for YHWH to essentially tell Job he cannot understand the concept of being tested. So the "mysterious ways" excuse works, but just as long as the reason is NOT REVEALED!

The Book of Job is a classic example of "too many cooks spoiling the broth", where one collaborator subsequently undermines the efforts of the previous.
metsastajatyyppi

Finland

#19 Dec 14, 2014
Huhuuu are there anyone, who can hear any more.. Huhuu...

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#20 Dec 15, 2014
JJJ wrote:
DOES ANY PARENT SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH THE SEQUENCE IN WHICH Job was tested?
You're just another unbeliever.

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