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Cisco Kid

United States

#123 Oct 3, 2013
JohnnyTrunk wrote:
<quoted text>
The gospel could not have been preached to the dead because the dead do not know anything.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing...
You are misguided and ignorant of gospel truth.

Our God is the God of the living.

"After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John and led them up a high mountain apart by themselves.
And he was transfigured before them, and his clothes became dazzling white, such as no fuller on earth could bleach them.

Then Elijah appeared to them along with Moses, and they were conversing with Jesus."
Mark 9:2-4
Cisco Kid

United States

#124 Oct 3, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
So then, I take it, that it is your belief that all of the people that lived and died before Jesus and the apostles went to hell until Jesus was crucified before they had an opportunity for salvation and that all of the people who have lived and died since Jesus’ teaching began spreading who were not lucky enough to hear the “good news” will be in hell until Jesus returns and gives them an opportunity to be saved.
There may be a language disruption here.

Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell"—Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.
(Phil 2:10; Acts 2:24; Rev 1:18; Eph 4:9; Pss 6:6; 88:11-13)

Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer:
which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom":
"It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."

Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
(Ps 89:49; 1 Sam 28:19; Ezek 32:17-32; Lk 16:22-26)
Big Al wrote:
Somehow the idea that people who through no fault of their own did not get the message would have to spend time in hell doesn’t seem to me like the way a just and loving “God” would do things.
All men are bound to seek the truth, especially in what concerns God and his Church, and to embrace it and hold on to it as they come to know it.
This duty derives from "the very dignity of the human person."
It does not contradict a "sincere respect" for different religions which frequently "reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men," nor the requirement of charity, which urges Christians "to treat with love, prudence and patience those who are in error or ignorance with regard to the faith.

Agnosticism can sometimes include a certain search for God, but it can equally express indifferentism, a flight from the ultimate question of existence, and a sluggish moral conscience.
Agnosticism is all too often equivalent to practical atheism.
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#125 Oct 4, 2013
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
There may be a language disruption here.
Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell"—Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.
(Phil 2:10; Acts 2:24; Rev 1:18; Eph 4:9; Pss 6:6; 88:11-13)
Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer:
which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom":
"It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."
Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
(Ps 89:49; 1 Sam 28:19; Ezek 32:17-32; Lk 16:22-26)
<quoted text>
All men are bound to seek the truth, especially in what concerns God and his Church, and to embrace it and hold on to it as they come to know it.
This duty derives from "the very dignity of the human person."
It does not contradict a "sincere respect" for different religions which frequently "reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men," nor the requirement of charity, which urges Christians "to treat with love, prudence and patience those who are in error or ignorance with regard to the faith.
Agnosticism can sometimes include a certain search for God, but it can equally express indifferentism, a flight from the ultimate question of existence, and a sluggish moral conscience.
Agnosticism is all too often equivalent to practical atheism.
I'm still not clear about what you believe about the necessity of belief in Jesus and knowledge of Bible teaching for salvation. Your statement "All men are bound to seek the truth, especially in what concerns God and his Church, and to embrace it and hold on to it as they come to know it" tells me nothing about what you believe in relation to the possibilty of salvation for all of the people who have lived and died and never even having the opportunity to hear about your God (Jesus) and his Church.

In a previous post you suggested that people that had never heard about Jesus or Bible teaching since the days of Jesus and the apostles would have an opportunity after they died to hear about Jesus and Bible teaching and accept or reject it and thereby be saved. However, you also suggested that they would have to wait in a place other than heaven (hell, sheol, purgatory, limbo) until Jesus returns.

I realize that this a diffcult question for those, like you, who believe that they will be saved (go to heaven after they die) by their belief in Jesus and adherence to Bible teaching. If people who have never heard of Jesus or Bible teaching have the same opportunity for salvation (to go to heaven after they die) as those who do believe and follow the teaching then you have to question the value of believing and following the teaching. If people who have never heard of Jesus or the Bible do not have the same opportunity for salvation (to go to heaven after they die) then your "God" is unjust. It's one of the questions I pondered before I decided that what I was taught to believe could not be correct.
Cisco Kid

United States

#126 Oct 4, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm still not clear about what you believe about the necessity of belief in Jesus and knowledge of Bible teaching for salvation. Your statement "All men are bound to seek the truth, especially in what concerns God and his Church, and to embrace it and hold on to it as they come to know it" tells me nothing about what you believe in relation to the possibilty of salvation for all of the people who have lived and died and never even having the opportunity to hear about your God (Jesus) and his Church.
In a previous post you suggested that people that had never heard about Jesus or Bible teaching since the days of Jesus and the apostles would have an opportunity after they died to hear about Jesus and Bible teaching and accept or reject it and thereby be saved. However, you also suggested that they would have to wait in a place other than heaven (hell, sheol, purgatory, limbo) until Jesus returns.
I realize that this a diffcult question for those, like you, who believe that they will be saved (go to heaven after they die) by their belief in Jesus and adherence to Bible teaching. If people who have never heard of Jesus or Bible teaching have the same opportunity for salvation (to go to heaven after they die) as those who do believe and follow the teaching then you have to question the value of believing and following the teaching.

If people who have never heard of Jesus or the Bible do not have the same opportunity for salvation (to go to heaven after they die) then your "God" is unjust. It's one of the questions I pondered before I decided that what I was taught to believe could not be correct.
My friend, rest easy and learn to see others through the eyes of Jesus...

As Jesus said at Matt.9:13
"Go and learn the meaning of the words,
‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’
I did not come to call the righteous but sinners.”

Our God is a loving God and makes provisions for those who live a life of Mercy.

Though we may be sinners, hear the call of Christ.....and respond.
Cisco Kid

United States

#127 Oct 4, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm still not clear about what you believe about the necessity of belief in Jesus and knowledge of Bible teaching for salvation......

If people who have never heard of Jesus or Bible teaching have the same opportunity for salvation (to go to heaven after they die) as those who do believe and follow the teaching then you have to question the value of believing and following the teaching.....
I have no reason to question the value of believing and following the teaching of Jesus Christ.

It has made such a remarkable change for the better in my life that there is no looking back.
Try it,...you'll like it.
Accept the Grace of God that is made available for you.
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#128 Oct 5, 2013
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
I have no reason to question the value of believing and following the teaching of Jesus Christ.
It has made such a remarkable change for the better in my life that there is no looking back.
Try it,...you'll like it.
Accept the Grace of God that is made available for you.
I have tried it. I was raised and educated in a Christian tradition and believed what I was taught just as sincerely as you. My best friend from grade school who was also the best man at my wedding and I at his was raised Jewish. He rejected the the divinity of Jesus and the the teaching of the New Testament. He was a good friend, father and husband. The more I thought about it the more clear it became that which "God" a person believes in is not a valid factor in determining whether he is deserving of eternal bliss or eternal punishment. From there I began questioning the whole idea of eternal reward and punishment by an omnipotent "God".

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty." - Albert Einstein

I'm sure your faith gives you a degree of comfort and solace in the face of the uncertainties of life and death but that's not unique to your particular faith. How much comfort and solace does it give you to think that a good friend or a loved one may end up in eternal damnation while are "enjoying" eternal bliss - or have you never considered that possibility?
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#129 Oct 5, 2013
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
My friend, rest easy and learn to see others through the eyes of Jesus...
As Jesus said at Matt.9:13
"Go and learn the meaning of the words,
‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’
I did not come to call the righteous but sinners.”
Our God is a loving God and makes provisions for those who live a life of Mercy.

Though we may be sinners,

hear the call of Christ.....and respond.
Why do Xtians like you always quote the Bible? To non-believers?!! Bible quotes are not answers, nor are they magical incantations that will do anything!

And you use one that clearly points out the arrogance of most Believers - their self-appointed Righteousness!

Even IF your Christ was calling, he cant be heard thru the cacophony of all his self-righteous, self-aggrandizing Believers!
Punisher

Bronxville, NY

#130 Oct 5, 2013
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
I have no reason to question the value of believing and following the teaching of Jesus Christ.
It has made such a remarkable change for the better in my life that there is no looking back.
Try it,...you'll like it.
Accept the Grace of God that is made available for you.
Empty Words of the sycophant. "Try it, you'll like it."

How 'bout you try atheism, you'll like it! Oh no...not that!

The issue that Xtians cant seem to come to grips with is this. Many people simply dont "like" what you folks have been peddling for 2K years now. That One-size doesn't fit all, and in matters of faith and a personal "spiritual" journey - everyone has a unique size. Even among Believers we see more and more Personal Interpretations being formed, where people easily keep what they like and toss-out what they dislike.(How's that gonna change the face of Xtianity in 50 years? IMO, a great deal.)

And now in a day and age where the abundant lies of not only Xtianity but all God-centered Religions, can be so easily accessed and scrutinized - the dislike is going to grow.

Humans in general will most certainly continue to seek a spiritual life/path, but IMO its going to push out the supernatural, the superstitious and the ancient myths, eliminate the need to believe in the absurd in order to be "saved", for a more reality based set of beliefs about what and who we humans truly are, and not what our primitive ancestors made-up for us to be.
Punisher

New York, NY

#131 Oct 5, 2013
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
I have no reason to question the value of believing and following the teaching of Jesus Christ.
It has made such a remarkable change for the better in my life that there is no looking back.
Try it,...you'll like it.
Accept the Grace of God that is made available for you.
Try it and like it? You know that really is not only condescending, but it totally cheapens the very foundations of what is allegedly so special about Faith in the Xtian God.

Its not a plate of food, or a new beverage. It makes you sound like the mom who insists their children eat liver, or some other unpleasant food. Try you'll like it, and if not immediately, you'll grow to...but eat or else!

(Disclaimer, I actually like liver, but rarely eat these sort of organ meats any more. A good heart is fine, but filtering organs - uh, no!)

Plus it ignores the reality MOST skeptics and atheists, etc, did try it, were eating it, and in some cases actually liked it for a time - till their taste-buds turned and it became wholly unpleasant.(which had nothing to do with the being good aspects, or charity aspects - but rather all the goofy BS!) Many of us ate it and liked it - but a lot of that had to do with all the marinade and sauces put all over it to mask the actual taste of what was underneath. Like liver smothered in onions and bacon. Tolerable till its not.

Tolerable till people uncover what it is they are eating, and the realities of it become obvious. Beliefs in absurdities, contradictions, inadequate insights, plus a whole heaping serving of superstitious mumbo-jumbo from an ancient past when people believed their small world was inhabited by all sorts of monsters and demons and sprites and faeries and other factions out to screw with them on a minute by minute basis. Who had little to no understanding of actual personal or public hygiene. Who thought incantations worked, who thought they could take a ritual bath (in what must have been some truly odorous communal baths, the mikveh's, not the Roman baths) and be clean enough to now go worship. Who thought a special object on their door mantel would keep evil away.(fast forward to the holocaust - epic fail! yet the belief lingers!)

Centuries of lies and obfuscations, sectarian bifurcations, a dozen canons, persecutions, Church sanctioned by the sword enforced faith or at least compliance, of wealth gathering, of power struggles and murder, of doing everything that runs counter (allegedly) to the core ideas of one small and relatively insignificant (at the time) man from a true backwater of the Roman Empire, who upset some Big City priests and got himself executed. To later men who took a simple message and created all sorts of mythology around it and proceeded to demean and denigrate it and create a Religion not even mentioned much less hinted at by the one they worship.

To a place now where Reality is viewed as a threat to the very existence of the Planet and all its inhabitants. To a modern place where an alleged holy Book is the real focus of most of the Worship, where belief in the absurdities therein is pushed even harder as imperative to the salvation of everyone. That belief and faith in the literalism of this Book is what separates the TRUE believers and truly saved from the condemned.

Where fantasies of Armageddon and End of days/Rapture scenarios feed the imaginations of not only naive children but adults who should know better!

When one actually sees what they are demanded to eat, many simply say no. I will not even try what is truly nasty and which no amount of sauce and side dishes can mask.
Cisco Kid

United States

#132 Oct 5, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
Empty Words of the sycophant. "Try it, you'll like it."
How 'bout you try atheism, you'll like it! Oh no...not that!...
Only a fool would endorse atheism.
The intelligent ones see too much evidence against atheism.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#133 Oct 6, 2013
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
Only a fool would endorse atheism.
The intelligent ones see too much evidence against atheism.
Well thats just more BS. Grade A USDA BS.

There is more reality based evidence for an atheist POV, which is fully backed up by the overwhelming lack of actual evidence for Gods.+/- 5K years and still not one scrap of real and certifiable proof/evidence for any Gods, let alone the Bible God.

Only a fool would declare a Theist victory in the arena of real and certifiable evidence. Fact is you folks cant even win a draw.
Cisco Kid

United States

#134 Oct 7, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
Well thats just more BS. Grade A USDA BS.
There is more reality based evidence for an atheist POV, which is fully backed up by the overwhelming lack of actual evidence for Gods.+/- 5K years and still not one scrap of real and certifiable proof/evidence for any Gods, let alone the Bible God.

Only a fool would declare a Theist victory in the arena of real and certifiable evidence.

Fact is you folks cant even win a draw.
There is no need to be victorious over the error of atheism.
Christians are already victorious by faith in God.

Don't be embarrassed because you are wrong in your atheist assumptions.
The evidence of the reality of God is plain, simple and recorded for posterity in history;
Jesus Christ is risen from the grave. Allelujah!

All faith flows from faith in the resurrection:
"If Christ has not been raised, then empty is our preaching; empty, too, is your faith."
(1 Cor 15:14)

"What you sow is not brought to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel of wheat, perhaps, or of some other kind;…So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown corruptible; it is raised incorruptible. It is sown dishonorable; it is raised glorious. It is sown weak; it is raised powerful. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual one.
So, too, it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living being," the last Adam a life-giving spirit. But the spiritual was not first; rather the natural and then the spiritual.
The first man was from the earth, earthly; the second man, from heaven.
As was the earthly one, so also are the earthly, and as is the heavenly one, so also are the heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthly one, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly one.
(1 Cor 15:36-37, 42-49)

Just because you don't comprehend something doesn't mean it's wrong.

NDanger

“Third Eye”

Since: Nov 10

You can't get there from here.

#135 Oct 8, 2013
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
Just because you don't comprehend something doesn't mean it's wrong.
Hey, did you copy that from the evilutionists?
lol

Welch, WV

#136 Oct 8, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
Well thats just more BS. Grade A USDA BS.
There is more reality based evidence for an atheist POV, which is fully backed up by the overwhelming lack of actual evidence for Gods.+/- 5K years and still not one scrap of real and certifiable proof/evidence for any Gods, let alone the Bible God.
Only a fool would declare a Theist victory in the arena of real and certifiable evidence. Fact is you folks cant even win a draw.
http://voices.yahoo.com/the-failure-atheism-6...

The testimony of atheism is that atheists are incurably ignorant, irrational, inconsistent, and hypocritical. The atheist abandonment of truth cuts far more deeply than the ritualistic recitation of the formula "There are no absolutes, etc." Atheists have subverted public education. For example, John Dewey's version of pragmatism, called instrumentalism, asserts that "the consequences of practice was the true test of ideas." Like Dewey, William James, rejected "absolute categories of truth and value." Cracker barrel philosopher like Dewy are called cracker barrel philosophers because they have no system and much of their notionalizing is replete with unstated or unconscious assumptions. "The consequences of practice was the TRUE test of ideas", really how can this be a TRUE test since we have already thrown truth out the window??? But what most people are looking for here is a set of true values, such things as "A democratic republic is a better form of government than a brutal tyranny because it is more fair and provides more freedom for the individual." Define better, brutal, tyranny, fair, freedom, etc. These inescapable, non-material metaphysical concepts cannot be established by practice alone. Freedom to do what? Murder babies and the elderly? Fair? Rob the the rich to help the poor? Establish by law the same annual income for everyone? What?
Cisco Kid

United States

#137 Oct 8, 2013
NDanger wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey, did you copy that from the evilutionists?
Indubitably, Mr.Danger......Indubitably.
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#138 Oct 9, 2013
NDanger wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey, did you copy that from the evilutionists?
He got that from history. Just because Martin Luther, Cardinal Bellarmine and the vast majority of Bible literalists of that time were unable to comprehend that the observed motions of the planets indicated that the earth revolved around sun didn't mean that heliocentric theory was wrong.

I find it difficult to comprehend why the religious fundamentalists of this day and age, that have the benefit of hindsight, can't see that they are making the same mistake in relation to the theory of evolution today.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#139 Oct 9, 2013
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no need to be victorious over the error of atheism.
Christians are already victorious by faith in God.
Don't be embarrassed because you are wrong in your atheist assumptions.
The evidence of the reality of God is plain, simple and recorded for posterity in history;
Jesus Christ is risen from the grave. Allelujah!
All faith flows from faith in the resurrection:
"If Christ has not been raised, then empty is our preaching; empty, too, is your faith."
(1 Cor 15:14)
"What you sow is not brought to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel of wheat, perhaps, or of some other kind;…So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown corruptible; it is raised incorruptible. It is sown dishonorable; it is raised glorious. It is sown weak; it is raised powerful. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual one.
So, too, it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living being," the last Adam a life-giving spirit. But the spiritual was not first; rather the natural and then the spiritual.
The first man was from the earth, earthly; the second man, from heaven.
As was the earthly one, so also are the earthly, and as is the heavenly one, so also are the heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthly one, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly one.
(1 Cor 15:36-37, 42-49)
Just because you don't comprehend something doesn't mean it's wrong.
Lol!
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#140 Oct 9, 2013
lol wrote:
<quoted text>
http://voices.yahoo.com/the-failure-atheism-6...
The testimony of atheism is that atheists are incurably ignorant, irrational, inconsistent, and hypocritical. The atheist abandonment of truth cuts far more deeply than the ritualistic recitation of the formula "There are no absolutes, etc." Atheists have subverted public education. For example, John Dewey's version of pragmatism, called instrumentalism, asserts that "the consequences of practice was the true test of ideas." Like Dewey, William James, rejected "absolute categories of truth and value." Cracker barrel philosopher like Dewy are called cracker barrel philosophers because they have no system and much of their notionalizing is replete with unstated or unconscious assumptions. "The consequences of practice was the TRUE test of ideas", really how can this be a TRUE test since we have already thrown truth out the window??? But what most people are looking for here is a set of true values, such things as "A democratic republic is a better form of government than a brutal tyranny because it is more fair and provides more freedom for the individual." Define better, brutal, tyranny, fair, freedom, etc. These inescapable, non-material metaphysical concepts cannot be established by practice alone. Freedom to do what? Murder babies and the elderly? Fair?

------>>>Rob the the rich to help the poor?

Establish by law the same annual income for everyone? What?
LOL! Truth. Its not what YOU think. Or the above silliness...

Do you like to feed us this BS because you have so much of it that You are just being generous, or want more people to sit in a pile of shyte like...you know misery loves company kinda think'n...? No thanks, you can keep your shyte.

As for this absurdity ------->>> - so you support the opposite? Which is pretty much the system we have now. Unfair to most, favoring a select few.

I love this stupid idea that The Rich get "robbed" by paying more taxes on their more money. American Xtian fundies like you have been voting against your best interests via the GOP for at three decades now...I love how you all keep voting to give more of your money away while cutting taxes for the Wealthiest few percent of the pop...that you idiots still believe the lie of trickle down economics.

LOL! You make me laugh.

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