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221 - 240 of 461 Comments Last updated Mar 13, 2014
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#236 Jan 28, 2014
janeebee wrote:
<quoted text>
Big Al: "...you can’t have “free will” without choice."
Yes you can! You could have "free will" without choice. There simply would be no opportunity to exercize "free will" without there being choices.
Why, people wouldn't be able to choose to deny they have "free will" if they didn't have it!
“free will (n)- the ability to choose how to act : the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God”- Merriam-Webster

“Free Will -…a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives.”– Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

“free will (n)- power of independent action and choice: the ability to act or make choices as a free and autonomous being and not solely as a result of compulsion or predestination”– Bing Dictionary

Notice that the words choose or choice are used in all definitions of “free will”. To deny the existence of "free will" is not a choice it's an observation.
Huh

Sussex, WI

#237 Jan 28, 2014
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
I consider 1900 to 1950 to be the first part of the 20th century and 1950 to 2000 to be the second part of the 20th century. The Nazi party existed from 1920 to 1945. By 1929, the party had 130,000 members. When it came to power in 1933, the Nazi Party had over 2 million members and membership rose to 5.3 million in 1939 and 8 million by 1945 before the Allied victory. The Allied Forces defeated the Nazis in May of 1945.
Had you been born in Germany in the first part of the 20th century you most likely would have been a Nazi.
Really Al? Do the math. It's approx 1 in 8 or < 8% chance of being one. Danger was correct and you proved it.

Since: Dec 09

Chicago, IL

#238 Jan 28, 2014
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
“free will (n)- the ability to choose how to act : the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God”- Merriam-Webster
“Free Will -…a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives.”– Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
“free will (n)- power of independent action and choice: the ability to act or make choices as a free and autonomous being and not solely as a result of compulsion or predestination”– Bing Dictionary
Notice that the words choose or choice are used in all definitions of “free will”. To deny the existence of "free will" is not a choice it's an observation.
Big Al: "To deny the existence of "free will" is not a choice it's an observation."

Denying the existence of "free will" IS a choice! You cannot "observe" that something that exists doesn't exist!

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#239 Jan 28, 2014
janeebee wrote:
<quoted text>
Big Al: "To deny the existence of "free will" is not a choice it's an observation."
Denying the existence of "free will" IS a choice! You cannot "observe" that something that exists doesn't exist!
Bravo, well said!

How could anyone deny the obvious?
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#240 Jan 29, 2014
janeebee wrote:
<quoted text>
Big Al: "To deny the existence of "free will" is not a choice it's an observation."
Denying the existence of "free will" IS a choice! You cannot "observe" that something that exists doesn't exist!
If you observe that raindrops are falling on you you cannot choose to observe that it is not raining. If you observe that you have no choice you cannot choose to observe that you have free will.
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#241 Jan 29, 2014
Huh wrote:
<quoted text>
Really Al? Do the math. It's approx 1 in 8 or < 8% chance of being one. Danger was correct and you proved it.
I stand corrected. 8 million was a small percentage of the total population of Germany. The Nazi's were very restrictve about who could become an official member of the Nazi party. However Hitler and the Nazi party did not come to power without the support of the German people. In 1934 a referendum on Hitler (and the Nazi party) was conducted. 96% of the registered voters participated and 88% of the votes cast supported Hitler (and the Nazi party). I am forced to rephrase my claim. If you were born in Germany and came of voting age in the first part of the 20th century you would most likely have been a member of or supporter of the Nazi party.
Huh

Sussex, WI

#242 Jan 29, 2014
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
I stand corrected. 8 million was a small percentage of the total population of Germany. The Nazi's were very restrictve about who could become an official member of the Nazi party. However Hitler and the Nazi party did not come to power without the support of the German people. In 1934 a referendum on Hitler (and the Nazi party) was conducted. 96% of the registered voters participated and 88% of the votes cast supported Hitler (and the Nazi party). I am forced to rephrase my claim. If you were born in Germany and came of voting age in the first part of the 20th century you would most likely have been a member of or supporter of the Nazi party.
OK, the country was in absolute ruin after WWI, then came the depression. Germany was in hyperinflation mode. Many parties were vying for Political power. Along comes a man who turns the country around and was revered as a "hero".

Who would you vote for? You still had a choice as he only got 88% vs 100%

Since: Dec 09

Chicago, IL

#243 Jan 29, 2014
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
If you observe that raindrops are falling on you you cannot choose to observe that it is not raining. If you observe that you have no choice you cannot choose to observe that you have free will.
Big Al: "If you observe that raindrops are falling on you you cannot choose to observe that it is not raining."

Who but a crazy person would? Or could!
The rest of us COULD choose to IMAGINE it's not!

Big Al: "If you observe that you have no choice you cannot choose to observe that you have free will."

Well, I see you've cleverly stacked the deck to insure a predetermined outcome! But alas, you know what they say: "the best laid plans" .......

Big Al: "If you observe that you have no choice you cannot choose to observe that you have free will."

You're contending you'd have to CHOOSE TO OBSERVE in order to observe that you have free will, yet you can observe that you have no choice WITHOUT choosing to!

P.S. We can't prove anything about something we don't know.
And we won't learn what we know not by DECIDING what to conclude about it beforehand.

Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#244 Jan 30, 2014
Huh wrote:
<quoted text>
OK, the country was in absolute ruin after WWI, then came the depression. Germany was in hyperinflation mode. Many parties were vying for Political power. Along comes a man who turns the country around and was revered as a "hero".
Who would you vote for? You still had a choice as he only got 88% vs 100%
Exactly my point. Circumstances beyond their control caused the vast majority of German people to support Hitler and the Nazi party. The fact that a small percentage of the people did not support the Nazis does not necessarily indicate free will only that opposing influences existed. Jews for example would obviously not have supported the Nazis (Jews were allowed to vote until 1935).
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#245 Jan 30, 2014
janeebee wrote:
<quoted text>
Big Al: "If you observe that raindrops are falling on you you cannot choose to observe that it is not raining."
Who but a crazy person would? Or could!
The rest of us COULD choose to IMAGINE it's not!
Big Al: "If you observe that you have no choice you cannot choose to observe that you have free will."
Well, I see you've cleverly stacked the deck to insure a predetermined outcome! But alas, you know what they say: "the best laid plans" .......
Big Al: "If you observe that you have no choice you cannot choose to observe that you have free will."
You're contending you'd have to CHOOSE TO OBSERVE in order to observe that you have free will, yet you can observe that you have no choice WITHOUT choosing to!
P.S. We can't prove anything about something we don't know.
And we won't learn what we know not by DECIDING what to conclude about it beforehand.
Making an accurate observation has very little to do with choosing. As you say if you feel and see raindrops you would have to be halucinating to observe that it is not raining. However "free will" has everything to do with choosing. How can you say you have "free will" if you don't have at least two different choices?

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#246 Jan 30, 2014
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
Making an accurate observation has very little to do with choosing. As you say if you feel and see raindrops you would have to be halucinating to observe that it is not raining. However "free will" has everything to do with choosing. How can you say you have "free will" if you don't have at least two different choices?
It is obvious that we have no free will when it comes to rain falling, those are forces out of reach for us.
But we have a free will to choose for our own behaviour when it is raining; we could stay in the rain or we could go inside the house.
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#247 Jan 30, 2014
Mr Ironhart wrote:
<quoted text>
It is obvious that we have no free will when it comes to rain falling, those are forces out of reach for us.
But we have a free will to choose for our own behaviour when it is raining; we could stay in the rain or we could go inside the house.
Of course you normally have a choice of whether to come in out of the rain or not. The question is how "free" is your choice. If you are in the prison exercise yard you do not have the physical ability to go back in out of the rain until the guard lets you back in or if you are child and have been told by your abusive parent that you must stay outside as punishment for bad behavior you are not free to choose to go back in even though you have the phyical ability to go back in. My point is that in most cases influences beyond one's control control the freedom of one's choices. Freedom of will is a relative thing. I don't claim that the exercise of "free will" is impossible just that it a much more complicated concept than it appears to be.

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#248 Jan 30, 2014
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course you normally have a choice of whether to come in out of the rain or not. The question is how "free" is your choice. If you are in the prison exercise yard you do not have the physical ability to go back in out of the rain until the guard lets you back in or if you are child and have been told by your abusive parent that you must stay outside as punishment for bad behavior you are not free to choose to go back in even though you have the phyical ability to go back in. My point is that in most cases influences beyond one's control control the freedom of one's choices. Freedom of will is a relative thing. I don't claim that the exercise of "free will" is impossible just that it a much more complicated concept than it appears to be.
Yes you are right that "free will" is a relative thing, it is always related to what is possible for us to do.
It is to my opinion related to evolution in some way, it follows the path of what is possible, what is a mistake and what works in the long term.
I would say that it is a law of nature not yet commonly accepted.

Since: Dec 09

Chicago, IL

#249 Jan 30, 2014
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
Making an accurate observation has very little to do with choosing. As you say if you feel and see raindrops you would have to be halucinating to observe that it is not raining. However "free will" has everything to do with choosing. How can you say you have "free will" if you don't have at least two different choices?
Big Al: "How can you say you have "free will" if you don't have at least two different choices?

Because you DO HAVE "free will", whether you have choices or not.
Just like you HAVE a digestive system, whether you have food to eat or not.
Besides which, you never have less than two choices, as long as you have one. Because with every one choice, you have two - whether to CHOOSE the one choice, or NOT!

So how are YOU doin', Al?
I hope life's going well for you, and the cold and snow of winter's not hittin' too hard where you are.
But either/or, have a great day!
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#250 Jan 30, 2014
I'm doing about as well as can be expected for an old-timer like myself. The 40 and 50 below zero wind chills are getting kind of old but it could always be worse.Thank you for asking. I hope you are doing well and I hope Old Man Winter is treating you better than us.

However I do have difficulty understanding how I can have "free will" whether I have the ability to choose or not. It seems to me kind of like telling a person in jail he's free to go wherever he wants so long as it's in the jail.
Huh

Sussex, WI

#251 Jan 30, 2014
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly my point. Circumstances beyond their control caused the vast majority of German people to support Hitler and the Nazi party. The fact that a small percentage of the people did not support the Nazis does not necessarily indicate free will only that opposing influences existed. Jews for example would obviously not have supported the Nazis (Jews were allowed to vote until 1935).
Exactly my point or the vote would have been 100%.

January 30, 1933 - Adolf Hitler is appointed Chancellor of Germany a nation with a Jewish population of 566,000 of 65,362,115 or 00.8%
Huh

Sussex, WI

#252 Jan 30, 2014
Big Al wrote:
I'm doing about as well as can be expected for an old-timer like myself. The 40 and 50 below zero wind chills are getting kind of old but it could always be worse.Thank you for asking. I hope you are doing well and I hope Old Man Winter is treating you better than us.
However I do have difficulty understanding how I can have "free will" whether I have the ability to choose or not. It seems to me kind of like telling a person in jail he's free to go wherever he wants so long as it's in the jail.
Another weather sensationalist.

You have the 'freewill' to live in the US or Not.
You have the 'freewill' to abide by the rules or Not.
You have the 'freewill' to vote in the US or Not.

I assume the greater Hibbing area is democrat. Does that leave you the only choice of which party to vote for?

Just asking.
Cisco Kid

Modesto, CA

#253 Jan 30, 2014
Huh wrote:
<quoted text>
That's obvious, what's a christion?
Not sure.
I know what a Christian is.
But am not sure what a 'christion' is. That's not so obvious.
Cisco Kid

Modesto, CA

#254 Jan 30, 2014
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
I stand corrected..........
I am forced to rephrase my claim.

If you were born in Germany and came of voting age in the first part of the 20th century you would most likely have been a member of or supporter of the Nazi party.
Not too likely if one was a German born Jew.
DOH!!

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#255 Jan 30, 2014
Another thing that will limit our "free will" is the ten comandments of the Jante Law;

You're not to think you are anything special.
You're not to think you are as good as we are.
You're not to think you are smarter than we are.
You're not to convince yourself that you are better than we are.
You're not to think you know more than we do.
You're not to think you are more important than we are.
You're not to think you are good at anything.
You're not to laugh at us.
You're not to think anyone cares about you.
You're not to think you can teach us anything.

Another in suplement to that is;

Perhaps you don't think I know a few things about you?

Conformity pressure will try to hold people back and perserve the existing structures.

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