Holy Crimes of the Week

Holy Crimes of the Week

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Hmm

Los Angeles, CA

#1 Jan 3, 2010
Holy crimes of the week -

California: Pastor Anthony Garduno arrested for dealing crystal meth. Garduno was a Catholic priest until he was booted for "inappropriate sexual contact" with a male parishioner. He may also face gun and sexual assault charges.

Ireland: The Irish Independent calls on Bishop Martin Drennan to resign over accusations he helped cloak the crimes of pedophile priests. The four other bishops named in the scandalous Murphy Report have all offered their resignations.

Pennsylvania: Pastor Kirk Caldwell held on $2M bond after being charged with murder for the Christmas Day shooting of his son.

Colorado: Pastor Keita Andrews pleads guilty to animal abuse after his starving dog was confiscated by animal protection officers.

Italy: Father Giorgio Panini charged with the stabbing murder of the husband of his mistress.

Internet: A website called Bishop Accountability has posted the names of 3300 Catholic priests accused of pedophilia.

Tennessee: Pastor Steve Tillman charged with reckless
endangerment for shooting at cars parked in his nephew's driveway.

Argentina: Archbishop Edgardo Storni sentenced to eight years for sexually abusing a priest in training.

South Africa: Father Georg Kerkhoff accused of abusing young boys. A local abuse victims support group plans to sue Kerkhoff's diocese for allowing him contact with children for more than a decade after complaints began.

This Week's Winner-
Rhode Island: Father Brendan Smyth accused of raping one male and two female minors during his tenure at Our Lady Of Mercy over 40 years ago. Smyth died in an Irish prison in 1997 following his conviction on 91 counts of child molestation. His two alleged victims in Rhode Island are demanding that the Diocese Of Providence release their records on Smyth and other suspected pedophile priests. Providence Archbishop Thomas Tobin has refused to comment on the charges.
Vic79

AOL

#2 Jan 3, 2010
None of these seem to be crimes committed in the name of Christianity. These crimes appear to be sins, and everyone is guilty of sinning.
Vic79

AOL

#3 Jan 3, 2010
I was hoping they were going to be crimes committed in the name of Christianity so we could discuss the difference between true Christians and nominal Christians, although I suppose that discussion is still relevant here...
Vic79

AOL

#4 Jan 3, 2010
One of the things we must first examine is whether the Christians involved were true Christians or nominal Christians, which means Christians in name only. Christ made it clear that some individuals are truly part of His church - what is called the invisible church - which is made up of all of God's elect, all of those who regenerated by His Spirit and have been sanctified and justified. This invisible church exists in the larger, visible church. Not all of those in the larger, visible church are members of the invisible, true church.
Vic79

AOL

#5 Jan 3, 2010
Using a metaphor, Christ predicted tares among the wheat and goats among the sheep. The tares and goats are really false believers. Even among the twelve apostles there was the apostle Judas, who was never a member of the true church. Early on Jesus said, "Have I not chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil," not a saint (Josh 6:70, KJV). Many claim to be Christians, but they aren't really at all.
Vic79

AOL

#6 Jan 3, 2010
Unfortunately, the nominal Christian has never truly given his heart and life to Jesus Christ. He is not a "new creature," as described in 2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV). His spirit has not been born again, so he does not experience Christ's transforming power. He is still the same ol' person with all the capabilities for evil that the worst pagan has, and yet he bears the name "Christian." Thus he is able to do an enormous amount of damage to the church and to the cause of Christ. So many of the evils attributed to Christians are committed by nominal Christians.
Vic79

AOL

#7 Jan 3, 2010
It's like the difference between a government-issued hundred-dollar bill and a counterfeit hundred-dollar bill. One of the bills has the backing of the government and is recognized as legitimate. The other is an imitation of the genuine bill, and the government doesn't recognize it. Just because someone calls himself or herself a Christian doesn't make it so, any more than calling a counterfeit bill legitimate makes it so.

Roland_Deschain

“Naturalism - Nature is Enough”

Since: Nov 07

Bristol, UK

#8 Jan 3, 2010
IMHO this is all apologetic nonsense.

“Citizen_Patriot_ Voter_Atheist!”

Since: May 09

Earth,TX

#9 Jan 4, 2010
Hmm wrote:
Holy crimes of the week -
California: Pastor Anthony Garduno arrested for dealing crystal meth. Garduno was a Catholic priest until he was booted for "inappropriate sexual contact" with a male parishioner. He may also face gun and sexual assault charges.
Ireland: The Irish Independent calls on Bishop Martin Drennan to resign over accusations he helped cloak the crimes of pedophile priests. The four other bishops named in the scandalous Murphy Report have all offered their resignations.
Pennsylvania: Pastor Kirk Caldwell held on $2M bond after being charged with murder for the Christmas Day shooting of his son.
Colorado: Pastor Keita Andrews pleads guilty to animal abuse after his starving dog was confiscated by animal protection officers.
Italy: Father Giorgio Panini charged with the stabbing murder of the husband of his mistress.
Internet: A website called Bishop Accountability has posted the names of 3300 Catholic priests accused of pedophilia.
Tennessee: Pastor Steve Tillman charged with reckless
endangerment for shooting at cars parked in his nephew's driveway.
Argentina: Archbishop Edgardo Storni sentenced to eight years for sexually abusing a priest in training.
South Africa: Father Georg Kerkhoff accused of abusing young boys. A local abuse victims support group plans to sue Kerkhoff's diocese for allowing him contact with children for more than a decade after complaints began.
This Week's Winner-
Rhode Island: Father Brendan Smyth accused of raping one male and two female minors during his tenure at Our Lady Of Mercy over 40 years ago. Smyth died in an Irish prison in 1997 following his conviction on 91 counts of child molestation. His two alleged victims in Rhode Island are demanding that the Diocese Of Providence release their records on Smyth and other suspected pedophile priests. Providence Archbishop Thomas Tobin has refused to comment on the charges.
Keep on bringing this "crap" into the open. It needs to be seen. The fundies will show up screaming that the perp's are not really christian or that these crimes were not committed in the name of god or it's all a lie. Oh look one of them is already here making excuses.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#10 Jan 4, 2010
Reason Personified wrote:
<quoted text>Keep on bringing this "crap" into the open. It needs to be seen. The fundies will show up screaming that the perp's are not really christian or that these crimes were not committed in the name of god or it's all a lie. Oh look one of them is already here making excuses.
And the Christian hating trolls will show up and say "see see you are human after all."
Xcaliber

Somerset, NJ

#11 Jan 4, 2010
It would be ridiculous to post crimes committed by Christians as a means to attack Christianity itself. Christians and those who purport to be Christian commit crimes just like atheists and people of other religious faiths. So, posting crimes committed by Christians does not prove anything accept the perpetrators committed a crime.

The difference here is that from a doctrinal standpoint, there is nothing in the New Testament that incites Christians to engage in holy war or to hate non-Christians. So if this thread is meant to be retaliation for Christian criticism of Islam's incitement of violence against non-Muslims, it's misplaced.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#12 Jan 4, 2010
Vic79 wrote:
It's like the difference between a government-issued hundred-dollar bill and a counterfeit hundred-dollar bill. One of the bills has the backing of the government and is recognized as legitimate. The other is an imitation of the genuine bill, and the government doesn't recognize it. Just because someone calls himself or herself a Christian doesn't make it so, any more than calling a counterfeit bill legitimate makes it so.
wow 6 posts to apologize and build the ever absurd case for the True vs. the non-true xtian.

not you or any other xtians can in most cases lay claim as to the True-ness of any other xtians faith. you cant measure it in yourself or anyone else, nor can you deny others claims. it would be nice if there was some gauge we could check on - but there is none. as even outward appearances could be deceiving.

we must also consider that an honest religious person will admit to the continued struggle in ones adherence and worship. so when "Xtian A" stumbles you cant take the faith away from him/her.
as a stumble is to be expected and doesnt delete their claim of faith.

but by your/others continued attempts to take others faith from them - according to some arcane criteria - it seems that a lot of people are pretending to be xtians more than actually being ones. which raises a Q, why are so many people pretending to be part of this worship-clan..?? only the most naive, ignorant person whould not know that they cant pretend their way to salvation, as their god knows their true hearts at all times. one cant hide from your god.

so why bother with the charade? its not like posing as a cop, or a bank employee, etc, to gain access to some "benefits"...??? whats the net gain for pretending to be a xtian...? admission to church? a free-checking account..? its akin to claiming one is a alcoholic yet does not drink. why, there is no gain in the claim.

so we must conclude since ONLY your god can determine whats in a persons heart, that when a person is claiming and in many cases ferverently so to be a faithful xtian - they are to be taken on their word. as they could be stumbling when we, er You - decide to stamp them with your approval.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#13 Jan 4, 2010
Xcaliber wrote:
It would be ridiculous to post crimes committed by Christians as a means to attack Christianity itself. Christians and those who purport to be Christian commit crimes just like atheists and people of other religious faiths. So, posting crimes committed by Christians does not prove anything accept the perpetrators committed a crime.
The difference here is that from a doctrinal standpoint, there is nothing in the New Testament that incites Christians to engage in holy war or to hate non-Christians. So if this thread is meant to be retaliation for Christian criticism of Islam's incitement of violence against non-Muslims, it's misplaced.
huh, there might not be a directive to engage in "holy war" - but there is a long history of using intepretation to do so. to twist the message to suit the agendas of an individual or group. or as we see in the long war on homosexuals to take a minor passage and make it the most important of them all. while ignoring the surrounding prohibitions at the same time.

the bible may not be as direct in its terminology (lets say as the Quran might be)- but its this very looseness and wholy interpretive nature of the biblical texts that has allowed so many thru history to use the bible to their violent and nefarious ends. and get many others to do the same as they faithfully follow a particular strain of interpretation - as the Right and True one.

and the fall-back that a true xtian is told by scripture, is compelled to go out and spread the word/message - too has been abused - as the bible has in fact become by this very common use a favorite tool for the many xtian Believers who would like divine justification for their actions and interpretive points of view.

scripture clearly does not have to be exact in its wording for its users to extract their own meanings, as the bible makes no claims as to what it means - its reader driven at all times. and as history shows that meaning is as open and varied as its readers.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#14 Jan 4, 2010
Xcaliber wrote:
It would be ridiculous to post crimes committed by Christians as a means to attack Christianity itself. Christians and those who purport to be Christian commit crimes just like atheists and people of other religious faiths. So, posting crimes committed by Christians does not prove anything accept the perpetrators committed a crime.
The difference here is that from a doctrinal standpoint, there is nothing in the New Testament that incites Christians to engage in holy war or to hate non-Christians. So if this thread is meant to be retaliation for Christian criticism of Islam's incitement of violence against non-Muslims, it's misplaced.
what this sort of posting does, one hopes, is that when the very "officers of the faith" are the ones committing crimes - and often they all appear to be sexual in nature - its points to the very weakness of the vclaim that morality and ethical beavior is by default a part of being a Believer.

too often we hear from Believers, how can non-believers have any morality, any ethics if they dont believe as we do? implying that by faith and claims of belief one is automatically acting in a moral and ethical manner...that faith departs morality on the believer by default.

by continually pointing out that these "officers of the faith" are as weak and as prone to sin and criminal behavior as everyone else makes the strong case that faith is not a cure-all. its not a means to a better society - if the religious leaders (be the big or small in notariety) who set the tone and deliver the most messages, make the most claims of societys ills to the faithful - cant keep their own proclivities in check - we should not be looking to religious faith as a curative for society.

“Citizen_Patriot_ Voter_Atheist!”

Since: May 09

Earth,TX

#15 Jan 4, 2010
N2shotokai wrote:
<quoted text>And the Christian hating trolls will show up and say "see see you are human after all."
Yes they will. My interest in this topic is that when putting oneself above the flock; as a beacon to lead others from darkness to light there should be an even greater distance between that beacon and the baser failings of a ordinary mortal.

Reading through post # 1, I see ....Pastor, Bishop, Pastor, Pastor, Father, Bishop, Pastor, Archbishop, Father, and Father

When the beacon becomes the object of scorn they have failed all who need that support/crutch.
Xcaliber

Somerset, NJ

#16 Jan 4, 2010
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
huh, there might not be a directive to engage in "holy war" - but there is a long history of using intepretation to do so. to twist the message to suit the agendas of an individual or group.[QUOTE]

Stop with the nonsense! And where your links?

Show me the New Testament scriptures that can be possibly twisted in a reasonable way to justify holy war. The crusades were defensive wars against Muslim invasions. Also, the crusades did not happen until finally, after 400 years of Muslim aggression, it became necessary to defend Europe and other places from continued Muslims attacks. So again, show me which scriptures were used to justify Christian holy war.

[QUOTE]or as we see in the long war on homosexuals to take a minor passage and make it the most important of them all. while ignoring the surrounding prohibitions at the same time.
And here is more nonsense!

What "minor passage" are you talking about. Homosexuality is either acceptable under Christian doctrine or not. The longstanding view of Christianity is that homosexuality is sin.
the bible may not be as direct in its terminology (lets say as the Quran might be)- but its this very looseness and wholy interpretive nature of the biblical texts that has allowed so many thru history to use the bible to their violent and nefarious ends. and get many others to do the same as they faithfully follow a particular strain of interpretation - as the Right and True one.
Again, show me which New Testament scriptures were used to justify holy war. I don't know of one instance when the Pope, for example, said such and such NT scriptures permits us to engage in the crusades. Rather, the crusades were defensive wars.
and the fall-back that a true xtian is told by scripture, is compelled to go out and spread the word/message - too has been abused - as the bible has in fact become by this very common use a favorite tool for the many xtian Believers who would like divine justification for their actions and interpretive points of view.
scripture clearly does not have to be exact in its wording for its users to extract their own meanings, as the bible makes no claims as to what it means - its reader driven at all times. and as history shows that meaning is as open and varied as its readers.
You're grasping at straws. When the Spanish landed in what is now South America, for example, and committed brutal acts of aggression against native inhabitants they did not use any New Testament scripture as an excuse to spread Christianity by brutal means. The Spanish ostensibly sought to explore and conquer territory.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#17 Jan 4, 2010
Reason Personified wrote:
<quoted text>Yes they will. My interest in this topic is that when putting oneself above the flock; as a beacon to lead others from darkness to light there should be an even greater distance between that beacon and the baser failings of a ordinary mortal.
Reading through post # 1, I see ....Pastor, Bishop, Pastor, Pastor, Father, Bishop, Pastor, Archbishop, Father, and Father
When the beacon becomes the object of scorn they have failed all who need that support/crutch.
BS, your entire reason for being in this forum is to mock Christians. At least be honest with yourself.

“Atheist and Proud !”

Since: Nov 07

Ontario,Canada

#18 Jan 4, 2010
Hello

N2

//At least be honest with yourself.//

Is Pointing out Inconsistent Phony Christians Dishonest??

Or does it just Hurt ??

A.
Trillogy

Gurnee, IL

#20 Jan 4, 2010
Sin is always unholy and it is a crime against God; no matter who commits it. Let's remember to judge ourselves less you be judged. Fake or failing people who label themselves Christians on the outside does not mean that Jesus is necessarily their Lord (their Owner) on the inside. God set Jesus Christ to take away the power of sin and death of from the people He Loves and His grace is presently available empower His People to know and Love God.

Wisemen Still Seek Him
http://www.cross.tv/16847

__________
Doubt Atheism.
http://www.evolutionfacts.blogspot.com
Trillogy

Gurnee, IL

#21 Jan 4, 2010
Sin is always unholy and it is a crime against God; no matter who commits it. Let's remember to judge ourselves less you be judged. Fake or failing people who label themselves Christians on the outside does not mean that Jesus is necessarily their Lord (their Owner) on the inside. God set Jesus Christ to take away the power of sin and death of from the people He Loves and His grace (help) through the Holy Spirit is presently available to empower His People to know and Love God.

With Jesus Christ you can come as you are, he loves you, and only He can clean you life up. You can repent repent today while there is still time and you still have air in your lungs.

Wisemen Still Seek Him
http://www.cross.tv/16847

__________
Doubt Atheism.
http://www.evolutionfacts.blogspot.com

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