The Trinity ~ Fact or Fiction

The Trinity ~ Fact or Fiction

Posted in the Christian Forum

First Prev
of 60
Next Last

“SINNER”

Since: Mar 11

Iron Sharpeneth Iron

#1 Feb 15, 2012
Although this has been discussed on many other threads, this can be for those that have strong feelings concerning our Godhead. I did this for a few of my brothers, even though their views may differ. Perhaps we can have discussions that stay somewhat on topic.

Trinity = God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One God although able separately do their will and their tasks. Those that believe that Jesus Christ is God, would also believe that He is uncreated, as is the Father. Jesus is the Word. John 1.

Others believe these are all separate gods and that Christ was created by Father God first, before all other things were created. Some believe that the Holy Spirit is not active on its own, and is not a God but a part of the Father.

Do we worship a different "God" if we believe differently concerning this?
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#3 Feb 15, 2012
The entire supporting concept behind the Trinity is not scriptural. That's why when the early churches were fighting over all of it...(and murdering too) the deciding factors were all political and not theological. That an Emperor settled it by Imperial decree and eventual enforcement by the sword points right to the heart of the problems with the whole concept.

Homoousios (of the same substance) is not scriptural. Lots of stuff out there to read up on...a good primer on the history of the debate and Imperial influence is "AD 381", Charles Freeman
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#4 Feb 15, 2012
This defining historical "moment" is also when The Church - with support of the Empire/s - basically shut down the long and important tradition of open debate (that the Greeks had made so important to any free society) about all matters spiritual. religious, etc...plunging the West into a long dark period of intellectual stagnation...

Where we can also see the very root and inspiration that seems to be influencing a current crop of Fundy Xtians who have decided that Intellectual curiosity is to be vilified. Where making pragmatic adjustments across the board to the whole Religion is seen as the work of Satan.

“SINNER”

Since: Mar 11

Iron Sharpeneth Iron

#5 Feb 15, 2012
Thank you. Certainly the word "Trinity" is not found in scripture, but the meaning is.

John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

Of course scripture goes on to state that Christ is the Word.

1 John 5:

7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#6 Feb 15, 2012
We Are Almost There wrote:
Thank you. Certainly the word "Trinity" is not found in scripture, but the meaning is.
John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Of course scripture goes on to state that Christ is the Word.
1 John 5:
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.
No these quotes are not truly supporting the notion of same substance - the homoousios, the Greek concept of being of the same substance. Which is where the idea that the Father, Son HS are not seperate, that the Son is not created after the fact...

You must realize and consider that for the last +/- 1500 years the Trinity has been the rule and that to question it was verboten. We can see in the writings/letters etc of the early Church fathers/philosophers, etc that even they had a hard time explaining the concept, and that it was pretty much agreed that the ONLY way out was to shut down all discussion - and they pretty much did. making it the law was the first step, than came the slow attrition of the opposing forces.

Its a fascinating story that was nearly wiped from the historical record...for these very reasons...the concept is non-scriptural. Dont be fooled by the quote-mining...that's due to nearly 2K years of control of theology-doctrine.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#7 Feb 15, 2012
We Are Almost There wrote:
Thank you. Certainly the word "Trinity" is not found in scripture, but the meaning is.
John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Of course scripture goes on to state that Christ is the Word.
1 John 5:
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.
more importantly is what Jesus said and did not say...all else is others applying their concepts on Jesus. Not even Paul was on board with the Trinity as you know it now...
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#8 Feb 15, 2012
Icon me all you want...I know the facts...its not my fault that so many Xtians are scared of the truth...!
Idi O Syncrasy

Farmington, CA

#9 Feb 15, 2012
Punisher wrote:
Icon me all you want...I know the facts...its not my fault that so many Xtians are scared of the truth...!
You know the facts of The Trinity?
Without the divine wisdom endowed by God on the faithful, you are not equipped with 'the facts'.

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

A redaction of the Nicene Creed:

"I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man..........

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified."
*---------> +

The Doctrine as interpreted by Greek Theology:

"Greek thought fixed primarily on the Three distinct Persons:
the Father, to Whom, as the source and origin of all, the name of God (Theos) more especially belongs; the Son, proceeding from the Father by an eternal generation, and therefore rightly termed God also; and the Divine Spirit, proceeding from the Father through the Son.

The Personality is treated as logically prior to the Nature.
Just as human nature is something which the individual men possesses, and which can only be conceived as belonging to and dependent on the individual, so the Divine Nature is something which belongs to the Persons and cannot be conceived independently of Them.

The contrast appears strikingly in regard to the question of creation.
All Western theologians teach that creation, like all God's external works, proceeds from Him as One: the separate Personalities do not enter into consideration.
The Greeks invariably speak as though, in all the Divine works, each Person exercises a separate office.

Irenaeus replies to the Gnostics, who held that the world was created by a demiurge other than the supreme God, by affirming that God is the one Creator, and that He made all things by His Word and His Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit (Against Heresies I.22, II.4.4-5, II.30.9 and IV.20.1).

A formula often found among the Greek Fathers is that all things are from the Father and are effected by the Son in the Spirit (Athanasius, "Ad Serap.", I, xxxi; Basil, On the Holy Spirit 38; Cyril of Alexandria, "De Trin. dial.", VI).

Thus, too, Hippolytus (Against Noetus 10) says that God has fashioned all things by His Word and His Wisdom creating them by His Word, adorning them by His Wisdom (gar ta genomena dia Logou kai Sophias technazetai, Logo men ktizon Sophia de kosmon).

The Nicene Creed still preserves for us this point of view.
In it we still profess our belief "in one God the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth ... and in one Lord Jesus Christ ... by Whom all things were made ... and in the Holy Ghost."
( newadvent.org )

Despite what you claim, it sounds like the Greeks had a pretty good grasp of The Trinity.

“Life Force One”

Since: Mar 09

The Spiritual Universe

#10 Feb 15, 2012
We Are Almost There wrote:
Thank you. Certainly the word "Trinity" is not found in scripture, but the meaning is.
John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Of course scripture goes on to state that Christ is the Word.
1 John 5:
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.
Sure, believe a book that also falsely claims that bats are birds, bushes, donkeys, and snakes talk, that staffs can change into snakes, and other insanity. And you wonder why it's sometimes called Christinsanity.

God is the vast and all powerful soul/spiritual mind energy Deity who creates, maintains, and controls the universe. God IS the living universe, the universe is the living God. There are no "parts" to God.

“SINNER”

Since: Mar 11

Iron Sharpeneth Iron

#11 Feb 15, 2012
Punisher wrote:
Icon me all you want...I know the facts...its not my fault that so many Xtians are scared of the truth...!
I'm not doing it. I don't give judgits, except occasionally positive ones, and especially hearts.

I appreciate your debate and dialogue as you are stating what you believe as a forum is intended opposed games of warfare. I don't require everyone to agree with me. That's I started this specific thread was for those that had an interest in this particular point, whether they be for or against.

“Life Force One”

Since: Mar 09

The Spiritual Universe

#12 Feb 15, 2012
Idi O Syncrasy wrote:
<quoted text>
You know the facts of The Trinity?
Without the divine wisdom endowed by God on the faithful, you are not equipped with 'the facts'.
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.
A redaction of the Nicene Creed:
"I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man..........
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified."
*---------> +
The Doctrine as interpreted by Greek Theology:
"Greek thought fixed primarily on the Three distinct Persons:
the Father, to Whom, as the source and origin of all, the name of God (Theos) more especially belongs; the Son, proceeding from the Father by an eternal generation, and therefore rightly termed God also; and the Divine Spirit, proceeding from the Father through the Son.
The Personality is treated as logically prior to the Nature.
Just as human nature is something which the individual men possesses, and which can only be conceived as belonging to and dependent on the individual, so the Divine Nature is something which belongs to the Persons and cannot be conceived independently of Them.
The contrast appears strikingly in regard to the question of creation.
All Western theologians teach that creation, like all God's external works, proceeds from Him as One: the separate Personalities do not enter into consideration.
The Greeks invariably speak as though, in all the Divine works, each Person exercises a separate office.
Irenaeus replies to the Gnostics, who held that the world was created by a demiurge other than the supreme God, by affirming that God is the one Creator, and that He made all things by His Word and His Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit (Against Heresies I.22, II.4.4-5, II.30.9 and IV.20.1).
A formula often found among the Greek Fathers is that all things are from the Father and are effected by the Son in the Spirit (Athanasius, "Ad Serap.", I, xxxi; Basil, On the Holy Spirit 38; Cyril of Alexandria, "De Trin. dial.", VI).
Thus, too, Hippolytus (Against Noetus 10) says that God has fashioned all things by His Word and His Wisdom creating them by His Word, adorning them by His Wisdom (gar ta genomena dia Logou kai Sophias technazetai, Logo men ktizon Sophia de kosmon).
The Nicene Creed still preserves for us this point of view.
In it we still profess our belief "in one God the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth ... and in one Lord Jesus Christ ... by Whom all things were made ... and in the Holy Ghost."
( newadvent.org )
Despite what you claim, it sounds like the Greeks had a pretty good grasp of The Trinity.
Ha, you are such a spiritually clueless yet arrogant pissant.

You egotistically boast of "divine wisdom", then spout a bunch of man made crap you read in a book of lies about God.

You have >>NO<< credibility with your arrogant self aggrandizing proclamations.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#13 Feb 15, 2012
All well and good, but your quoting the victors...doesnt mean they were being true to the scripture that they were using at the time...not the ones that are now adulterated to make the case.

I dont need your HS to read history and understand it. I dont need the HS to see the reality of the contentious nature of this topic in the early church, and its struggle to raise its power in the Empires.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#14 Feb 15, 2012
The Trinity is a FACT. They're just three different dudes.

“SINNER”

Since: Mar 11

Iron Sharpeneth Iron

#15 Feb 15, 2012
Seen Is Awesome wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure, believe a book that also falsely claims that bats are birds, bushes, donkeys, and snakes talk, that staffs can change into snakes, and other insanity. And you wonder why it's sometimes called Christinsanity.
God is the vast and all powerful soul/spiritual mind energy Deity who creates, maintains, and controls the universe. God IS the living universe, the universe is the living God. There are no "parts" to God.
There you are, it's good to see you out and about. Had I known that's all it would take I would have started sooner. I just mentioned you to our friend last night that I see you post little, at least where I have dropped in.

I agree with you on most of the last paragraph. Yes, God is in control.

“SINNER”

Since: Mar 11

Iron Sharpeneth Iron

#16 Feb 15, 2012
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
The Trinity is a FACT. They're just three different dudes.
I can run but I cannot hide. LMBO.

Well, at least you believe there's three instead of two. Yes, they are 3 different dudes. Isn't it amazing how they can also all be 1?!

Did I ever tell you my mercury story? When we were kids and they had those nasty thermometers with the mercury in them, they occasionally got broken and we would promptly round it up and put it in a pill bottle. It was kinda fun to play with. We could shake it and separate it and then roll it around and it became one again. That is my show and tell for the day.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#17 Feb 15, 2012
We Are Almost There wrote:
<quoted text>
I can run but I cannot hide. LMBO.
Well, at least you believe there's three instead of two. Yes, they are 3 different dudes. Isn't it amazing how they can also all be 1?!
Did I ever tell you my mercury story? When we were kids and they had those nasty thermometers with the mercury in them, they occasionally got broken and we would promptly round it up and put it in a pill bottle. It was kinda fun to play with. We could shake it and separate it and then roll it around and it became one again. That is my show and tell for the day.
That's only if Trinity is the right number of dudes. It could be any number of dudes if you call them something else like quartet or sextet for all the difference it's gonna make to me.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#18 Feb 15, 2012
We Are Almost There wrote:
<quoted text>
I can run but I cannot hide. LMBO.
Well, at least you believe there's three instead of two. Yes, they are 3 different dudes. Isn't it amazing how they can also all be 1?!
Did I ever tell you my mercury story? When we were kids and they had those nasty thermometers with the mercury in them, they occasionally got broken and we would promptly round it up and put it in a pill bottle. It was kinda fun to play with. We could shake it and separate it and then roll it around and it became one again. That is my show and tell for the day.
Yeah, Mercury is really cool stuff. It's a wonder I haven't died of Merury poisoning by now.

Did you know the phrase 'mad as a hatter' is derived from the madness associated Mercury accumulation in the brain due to the employment of Mercury in the shaping of felt ?
Sola Scriptura

Charleston, WV

#19 Feb 15, 2012
Punisher wrote:
Icon me all you want...I know the facts...its not my fault that so many Xtians are scared of the truth...!
I did not icon you but I will tell you you are wrong. You are a nonbeliever, your views and thoughts on the Trinity are useless. The Trinity is real. There is the Fater, the Son AND the Holy Spirit and can be proven Sola Scriptura all day long. You will never believe though because you have mans knowledgs on the matter.

I beleive in the Trinity, however I do not believe there are three separate Gods.
Sola Scriptura

Charleston, WV

#20 Feb 15, 2012
Seen Is Awesome wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure, believe a book that also falsely claims that bats are birds, bushes, donkeys, and snakes talk, that staffs can change into snakes, and other insanity. And you wonder why it's sometimes called Christinsanity.
God is the vast and all powerful soul/spiritual mind energy Deity who creates, maintains, and controls the universe. God IS the living universe, the universe is the living God. There are no "parts" to God.
And I guess you can see God in a dog turd?
Sola Scriptura

Charleston, WV

#21 Feb 15, 2012
We Are Almost There wrote:
<quoted text>
I can run but I cannot hide. LMBO.
Well, at least you believe there's three instead of two. Yes, they are 3 different dudes. Isn't it amazing how they can also all be 1?!
Did I ever tell you my mercury story? When we were kids and they had those nasty thermometers with the mercury in them, they occasionally got broken and we would promptly round it up and put it in a pill bottle. It was kinda fun to play with. We could shake it and separate it and then roll it around and it became one again. That is my show and tell for the day.
I'm going to ask a simple question. I would like a simple answer.

If you saw the Trinity walking toward you,(I KNOW God is invisible, just humor me,) how many entities would you see? One or Three?

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker
First Prev
of 60
Next Last

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Christian Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Is it OK to make jokes about cancer ? 29 min Tricky little mon... 6
If it's a sin to go to nightclubs, then it's a ... 33 min Tricky little mon... 2
Would Jesus have attended a Gay Wedding? 35 min Tricky little mon... 2,806
Are World Events Pointing to End Times (Aug '14) 42 min End Times 2,603
*Forgiveness* 47 min Tricky little mon... 9
Has Topix positively influenced ANY non-Christi... 48 min Gary Coaldigger 19
all religions are myths and fictions 50 min Tricky little mon... 52
Homosexual acts remain a sin. 6 hr Truth 187
More from around the web