Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#62 Feb 23, 2013
socci wrote:
A Double Sabbath
If Friday was the day of crucifixion then this day would have to be a preparation day for not only Passover but also for the Seventh day Sabbath of the Lord and would therefore be a double Sabbath. Can we prove this from the Word of God for even further evidence? In the Bible, Passover is always called Passover and the Seventh day Sabbath is always called the Sabbath. John 19:31 below says "THE Sabbath" with the word "THE" being the definite article, that is, not "A sabbath" but "THE Sabbath." Hence this is and can only be the weekly Sabbath. John 19:14 confirms it is a double sabbath. This day is not only the preparation for "THE Sabbath" but also the preparation for "THE Passover" and why it is called a high day.
John 19:14 "And it was the preparation of the Passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!"
John 19:31 "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day,(for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."
continues. www.wednesdaycrucifixion.com
-----

I agree with you Socci. Thank you for the booster.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#63 Feb 23, 2013
socci wrote:
<quoted text>
Yea resurrection was prophesied in OT passages as was Messiah fulfilled only by Jesus. Feel free to start another thread. This one is about why Wed is not the right day.
The Jews 2000 years ago knew this all too well as the entire sacrificial system was set up around this type - antitype. The sacrificial system began long before Israel with the first sacrifice of a lamb to cover Adam and Eve, we are told. This lamb symbolizing Jesus the lamb of God.
The wages of sin is death. Adam and Eve were told if they sinned they would die. Yet their sin was covered with the lamb's blood.
---------

The wages of sin is NOT death. Why? Because either you sin or not you die. Death is the wage of being born. To be born is the beginning of man; to die is the end.

Now, for the prophecies about bodily resurrection in the Tanach, I am ready for the proofs. Just go ahead and show me the quotes. And if Jesus is prophesied in the Tanach, I am also ready. Go right ahead and share it with me. If I can't show what the references point to, I will abide for what you say.

Ben

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#64 Feb 23, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
---------
The women did not buy the spices on the hours of the Sabbath but after the Sabbath was over. Read Mark 16:1.
If Jesus said that after three days he would rise how is it that his disciples didn't believe him?(Luke 24:11) It seems to me he never said such a thing as Jews do not believe in bodily resurrection.
The Jews believed in a resurrection at the end of time but Jesus' disciples did not believe that He would rise after three days as he said.

Many Jews did believe in a resurrection. See Tanakh scriptures.
<><
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.(Psalm 49:15)
Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

O that you would hide me in the grave, that you would keep me secret, until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. You shall call, and I will answer you: you will have a desire to the work of your hands.(Job 14:13-15).

The LORD kills, and makes alive: he brings down to the grave, and brings up.(1Samuel 2:6)

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.(Daniel 12:1-2)
O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: and I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord" (Ezek. 37:4-6).

Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus says the Lord GOD; “Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it.”(Ezekiel 37:12-14)

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead" (Isa. 26:19).

"1 will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction ..." (Hosea 13:14).

Isaiah 26:19: "Your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy!"
<><
... Therefore, Saturday because "The Day of Preparation" in Judaism is the Friday. It just happened that the Passover fell on the weekly Sabbath which made of it a "High Sabbath." Every festival falling on the weekly Sabbath makes of it a "High Sabbath." (John 19:31)
<><
This is correct.
<><
About the guards set at the tomb area it was next day after "The Day of Preparation." ...You can never prove with a quote that the Romans put the guards out
there at dark after sunset on Thursday. That's according to your own private gospel. I cannot refute your own gospel.
Ben
<><
The Romans did not care if they violated Jewish religious law.

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#65 Feb 23, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you know something Allen? This whole issue about Jesus' resurrection is nothing but a Christian attempt to vandalize Judaism which was the Faith of Jesus with a the Christian doctrine of the resurrection which has nothing to do with Judaism. Paul himself declared to his disciple Timothy that Jesus' resurrection was according to his - Paul's - gospel.(2 Tim. 2:8) I find it stupid that we should waste our time with something that Paul himself has revealed the truth about it. This is as simple as the fact that Paul was the one who fabricated the whole idea.
Ben
<><
This is just one scripture, of many, which shows you do not have a clue what you are talking about.
<><
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
<><
Just as I thought a phony wannabe jew who has never read the NT. Who copies bits and pieces from some athiest site trying to prove his assumptions/presuppositions

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#66 Feb 23, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
---------
The wages of sin is NOT death. Why? Because either you sin or not you die. Death is the wage of being born. To be born is the beginning of man; to die is the end.
Now, for the prophecies about bodily resurrection in the Tanach, I am ready for the proofs. Just go ahead and show me the quotes. And if Jesus is prophesied in the Tanach, I am also ready. Go right ahead and share it with me. If I can't show what the references point to, I will abide for what you say.
Ben
<><
This post shows that you don't even know what the Tanakh says.
<><
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#67 Feb 23, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
---------
The wages of sin is NOT death. Why? Because either you sin or not you die. Death is the wage of being born. To be born is the beginning of man; to die is the end.
Now, for the prophecies about bodily resurrection in the Tanach, I am ready for the proofs. Just go ahead and show me the quotes. And if Jesus is prophesied in the Tanach, I am also ready. Go right ahead and share it with me. If I can't show what the references point to, I will abide for what you say.
Ben
<><
Jewish Encyclopedia-Resurrection

In the long run the old national point of view asserted itself in the form of Messianic hopes. These gave rise to a belief in a resurrection in order that more might share in the glory of the Messianic kingdom. This hope first finds expression in Isa. xxvi. 19, a passage which Cheyne dates about 334 B.C. The hope was cherished for faithful Israelites. In Dan. xii. 1-4 (about 165 B.C.) a resurrection of "many ... that sleep in the dust" is looked forward to. This resurrection included both righteous and wicked, for some will awake to everlasting life, others to "shame and everlasting contempt."

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12...

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#68 Feb 23, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
-----
RR, did you know that Jesus was a Jewish person whose Faith was Judaism? That's the Faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Take a look at Revelation 14:12. "Here is the patience of the saints; those who keep the commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus. If the Faith of Jesus was Judaism, Rev. 14:12 is talking about the Jews.
Ben
<><
The book of Revelation was written to the seven churches of Asia, Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea, Rev 2-3. It was written to Christians not Jews.
buck

AOL

#69 Feb 24, 2013
okay I'll have to repeat what I wrote on another post topic.
Jesus said He would rise again in"3 days"
are we to assume or believe that Jesus didn't know the sum of 3 days?
72 hours is 3 days, whether it's sundown to sundown or sun up to sun up.
If you research the internet you will find the majority believe Jesus died on a Friday, to include many scholars.
If that be so that would mean the first day of the week was a Monday.
and if it was actually Friday it was the 9th hour Jesus died which is about 3 pm which indicates the day was nearly over so it was not a complete day of 24 hours.
How technical and precise were they on time ages ago?
Some scholars etc. count Friday as one of the days, but either way that still doesn't add up to 72 hours if Saturday was considered the Sabbath way back then.
Here's something to consider, we look at Monday as our first day of the work week.
and if Sunday be the Sabbath it would make perfect sense today. The women waited until after the Sabbath to go to the tomb early the next morning which would be considered a work day.
Maybe Friday is counted as one of the days and it's possible that it was not a Friday Jesus was crucified, maybe it was a Thursday. Many argue the crucifixion day. Jesus said in 3 days, did he mean the third day precisely or after sundown on that third day?
Ben Masada

Los Angeles, CA

#70 Feb 26, 2013
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
No you are not reading. You are ignoring everything I posted and just repeating your same argument over and over and over as if by repetition you can somehow make it so. In Jewish thought a part of a day was considered a whole day. As shown by the sources I quoted, above, "three days and three nights" means the same thing as "in three days,""on the third day," and "after three days."
How do you get three full days and three full nights, if, according to your argument, Jesus was crucified around 4-5pm Wednesday or Thursday afternoon, and resurrected around 5am Sunday morning?
If Jesus was buried around 4-5pm Wednesday, three full days and nights, he would be resurrected around 4-5pm Saturday.
If Jesus was buried around 4-5pm Thursday, three full days and nights, he would be resurrected around 4-5pm Sunday.
As the scripture shows Jesus was resurrected around dawn on Sunday. Your calculation is either 12 hours more or less than three days and three nights.
Nice try. Nothing but your opinion.
------
Allen, I can't take your word for it. You seem to be talking about a different gospel that is not in NT. Besides, your calculations have nothing to do with Jewish culture with references to days and nights.
Ben
Ben Masada

Los Angeles, CA

#71 Feb 26, 2013
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
The Romans did not care if they violated Jewish religious law.
----

That's not what I said of meant. Read Matthew 27:62-66. Now, please
provide your quote to prove that mine is not true.

Ben
buck

AOL

#72 Feb 26, 2013
and Ben Masada from CA we cannot take your word period! maybe you're reading from a different NT because it does not state the day that Jesus died on the cross.
buck

AOL

#73 Feb 26, 2013
well Ben Masada your #47 post cannot be right either. Friday 5 pm to Sunday morning IS NOT a 72 hour period.
Did you forget that in all of your calculations? how convenient of you.
3 days is a 72 hour time period even a 3rd grader knows that today lol.
oh yeah I forgot you're right and everyone else is wrong. LOL
Ben Masada

Los Angeles, CA

#74 Feb 26, 2013
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
The Jews believed in a resurrection at the end of time but Jesus' disciples did not believe that He would rise after three days as he said.
Many Jews did believe in a resurrection. See Tanakh scriptures.
<><
But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.(Psalm 49:15)
Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
O that you would hide me in the grave, that you would keep me secret, until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. You shall call, and I will answer you: you will have a desire to the work of your hands.(Job 14:13-15).
The LORD kills, and makes alive: he brings down to the grave, and brings up.(1Samuel 2:6)
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which stands for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
and at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.(Daniel 12:1-2)
O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: and I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord" (Ezek. 37:4-6).
Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus says the Lord GOD; “Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it.”(Ezekiel 37:12-14)
"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead" (Isa. 26:19).
"1 will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction ..." (Hosea 13:14).
Isaiah 26:19: "Your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy!"
------

The Jews did not and do not believe in bodily resurrection. And to quote that they did, you say, "See Tanach Scriptures." You must surely be kidding! Is that how you quote? And then all of a sudden you decide to give the right way to quote and bring up several ones
that have nothing to do with bodily resurrection. The quote of Isaiah for example, is a reference to the Jews from exile. If you read Isaiah 53:8,9 every time the Jews were forced out into exile it was as if they had been cut off out of the Land of the Living which is the Land of Israel and graves were assigned for them among the Gentiles. At the end of the exile, the Lord would open those graves and bring them back to the Land of Israel.(Eze. 37:12)
That's the kind of resurrection we believe in. Bodily resurrection is a Pauline fabrication in the NT.

Ben
buck

AOL

#75 Feb 26, 2013
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
No you are not reading. You are ignoring everything I posted and just repeating your same argument over and over and over as if by repetition you can somehow make it so. In Jewish thought a part of a day was considered a whole day. As shown by the sources I quoted, above, "three days and three nights" means the same thing as "in three days,""on the third day," and "after three days."
How do you get three full days and three full nights, if, according to your argument, Jesus was crucified around 4-5pm Wednesday or Thursday afternoon, and resurrected around 5am Sunday morning?
.
If Jesus was buried around 4-5pm Wednesday, three full days and nights, he would be resurrected around 4-5pm Saturday.
.
If Jesus was buried around 4-5pm Thursday, three full days and nights, he would be resurrected around 4-5pm Sunday.
.
As the scripture shows Jesus was resurrected around dawn on Sunday. Your calculation is either 12 hours more or less than three days and three nights.
.
Nice try. Nothing but your opinion.
<quoted text>
.
<quoted text>
<><
What exactly do you think I should document? Can you not count from Wednesday to Monday and from Thursday to Monday?
<><
If you are talking about this, "In Jewish thought a part of a day was considered a whole day. As shown by the sources I quoted, above,'three days and three nights' means the same thing as 'in three days,''on the third day,' and 'after three days.'" I have already posted the documentation at least twice in the thread and you have ignored it. This shows that you are not even reading my posts.
Thank you Allen Richards your introduction reply is so simple to understand that even a child could do so.
Too many Bible scholars think they know the exact day Jesus was crucified and you know the funny thing is that they don't suppose that any of them could be dead wrong! lol
were they there that day? NO!
How many researchers have researched this and that and come up close with answers but not exactly?
Ben Masada

Los Angeles, CA

#76 Feb 26, 2013
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
<><
This is just one scripture, of many, which shows you do not have a clue what you are talking about.
<><
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
<><
Just as I thought a phony wannabe jew who has never read the NT. Who copies bits and pieces from some athiest site trying to prove his assumptions/presuppositions
------

What you are doing is only to show me that the NT is full of contradictions. If in 2 Tim. 2:8 Paul says that Jesus' resurrection was a ccording to his gospel, you give another from the gospel writers saying that he would resurrect. You can't even think that the gospels were written 50+ years after Jesus had been gone. IMHO, to admit that the gospel writers copied from Paul's writings is preferable than to adopt the contradictions between them. Think it through!

Ben
Ben Masada

Los Angeles, CA

#77 Feb 26, 2013
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
<><
This post shows that you don't even know what the Tanakh says.
<><
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
--------

I do know. That's why I challenge what you know because I am sure it is not in the Tanach. I am still waithing for the proofs that Jesus is in the Tanach.

Ezekiel 18:4 has nothing at all to do with bodily resurrection. As a Christian, you should think twice or more to bring up such a quote. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Jesus died, didn't he? Therefore, he was a sinner too.

Ben
Ben Masada

Los Angeles, CA

#78 Feb 26, 2013
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
<><
Jewish Encyclopedia-Resurrection
In the long run the old national point of view asserted itself in the form of Messianic hopes. These gave rise to a belief in a resurrection in order that more might share in the glory of the Messianic kingdom. This hope first finds expression in Isa. xxvi. 19, a passage which Cheyne dates about 334 B.C. The hope was cherished for faithful Israelites. In Dan. xii. 1-4 (about 165 B.C.) a resurrection of "many ... that sleep in the dust" is looked forward to. This resurrection included both righteous and wicked, for some will awake to everlasting life, others to "shame and everlasting contempt."
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12...
-------

The quotes you give from Isaiah and Daniel are references to the metaphorical resurrection symbolized by the return of the Jews from their "graves" in exile among the nations. Read Ezekiel 37:12)
So far, what you have given constitute no proofs of bodily resurrection. But keep trying.

Ben
Ben Masada

Los Angeles, CA

#79 Feb 26, 2013
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
<><
The book of Revelation was written to the seven churches of Asia, Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea, Rev 2-3. It was written to Christians not Jews.
----

You have not answered my question about the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism. Anyway, all those churches were of people whose Faith was not the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism. So, the don't fit into Revelation 14:12. Otherwise, we are dealing here with a contradiction.

Ben
Ben Masada

Los Angeles, CA

#80 Feb 26, 2013
buck wrote:
okay I'll have to repeat what I wrote on another post topic.
Jesus said He would rise again in"3 days"
are we to assume or believe that Jesus didn't know the sum of 3 days?
72 hours is 3 days, whether it's sundown to sundown or sun up to sun up.
If you research the internet you will find the majority believe Jesus died on a Friday, to include many scholars.
If that be so that would mean the first day of the week was a Monday.
and if it was actually Friday it was the 9th hour Jesus died which is about 3 pm which indicates the day was nearly over so it was not a complete day of 24 hours.
How technical and precise were they on time ages ago?
Some scholars etc. count Friday as one of the days, but either way that still doesn't add up to 72 hours if Saturday was considered the Sabbath way back then.
Here's something to consider, we look at Monday as our first day of the work week.
and if Sunday be the Sabbath it would make perfect sense today. The women waited until after the Sabbath to go to the tomb early the next morning which would be considered a work day.
Maybe Friday is counted as one of the days and it's possible that it was not a Friday Jesus was crucified, maybe it was a Thursday. Many argue the crucifixion day. Jesus said in 3 days, did he mean the third day precisely or after sundown on that third day?
--------

What a messy! Every one can make up his or her own gospel out of this scrumble of confusion! Now, for your question above if "Are we
to believe that Jesus did not know the sum of three days?" No, we don't have believe or assume anyting. If Jesus was a Jewish man, all we have to do is to believe that he did not resurrect based on the fact that Jews do not believe in bodily resurrection. That's all.

Ben
Ben Masada

Los Angeles, CA

#81 Feb 26, 2013
buck wrote:
and Ben Masada from CA we cannot take your word period! maybe you're reading from a different NT because it does not state the day that Jesus died on the cross.
------

I have two translations of the Bible NAB and KJB. They say the same. You must be reading from Allen's version of the NT.

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