Crucifixion Before Passover

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#42
Feb 22, 2013
 
Ant wrote:
Friday evening to Sunday is not 3 days and 3 night and not even 3 days.
Jesus Died Wed on Passover and Rose after sunset on Saturday night, which would now be considered the 1rst day Sunday since new days started at sunset back then
--------

No, Jesus died on that Friday aka The Day of Preparation, was buried just before sunset, the next day was Saturday, and the day after was Sunday. It is all in Mat. 27:62 and until 28:1. Passover was not on that Wednesday but Friday.(John 18:28) What Jesus ate with his disciples in Wednesday was a regular supper. The writer or the editor or the Church simply committed a blunder or a pious forgery. That's all.

Ben

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#43
Feb 22, 2013
 
Kevin McMillen wrote:
<quoted text>
So you don't believe the bible?
Mat 1:18 ¶ Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost
It says before they came together.
I know of all the myths of virgins conceiving gods. Does that bother you?
Don't you think that Satan knew all the prophecies about Jesus and could counterfeit them?
Sorry, but my Lord and Saviour is Yehoshua, Jesus the Christ, born of a virgin.
-----

I believe only 20% of the NT. All that you have written above is part of the 80% akin to Greek Mythology. Admit that Jesus was not Jewish but Greek and I'll believe 100% of what you say.

Ben

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#44
Feb 22, 2013
 
buck wrote:
ben masada who likes to hide wherever you are full of yourself and like to hear yourself speak out it seems.
you're just trying to "argue" YOUR WAY IS RIGHT and guess what BUZZZZ IT IS NOT RIGHT! and just because GOD used a prophet does not mean the passage cannot be taken any more literal than another.
You just can't pick a part of the Bible to believe, you either believe it ALL or not at all!
-----

IMHO, you have forgotten that you are dialoguing with a Jew who has a mind of his own. I believe only what makes sense to me and not simply because it is written by Hellenists.

Ben
Ant

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#45
Feb 22, 2013
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
--------
No, Jesus died on that Friday aka The Day of Preparation, was buried just before sunset, the next day was Saturday, and the day after was Sunday. It is all in Mat. 27:62 and until 28:1. Passover was not on that Wednesday but Friday.(John 18:28) What Jesus ate with his disciples in Wednesday was a regular supper. The writer or the editor or the Church simply committed a blunder or a pious forgery. That's all.
Ben
Passover and Feast of Unleavened bread are also Sabbaths, so it was the day of preparation for those Sabbaths, not the Saturday Sabbath.

Lets say Jesus died Friday @3pm like the scriptures says and rose on a Sunday before the sun rose, which would be 6 or 7 am. That would be 39-40 hrs in the grave and not even be 2 days. When Jesus said he would be in the grave 3 days, he meant 3 days. That's All!

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#46
Feb 22, 2013
 
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
<><
Thank you! Unless you read both Hebrew and Greek fluently, every time you read the Bible you are reading an "authority," the translator, and you have to rely on your favorite "authority" i.e. whichever version you prefer.
<><
There is a huge difference between quoting an "authority" and quoting Jewish scholars who cite Jewish history.
<><
Unless you read Hebrew and have independent knowledge of Jewish history your opinion does not interest me.
<><
OBTW I do read both Hebrew and Greek. I studied them both at the graduate level more than 3 decades ago.
------

And I live in Israel for 20 years. But I prefer to dialogue in English, if you understand me well enough. You might have studied Hebrew but you don't give off enough evidences that you are an expert in Jewish Culture. But that's not important. Can we get back
to the issue? If you wonder why, as a Jew, I am fighting against the possibility that Jesus resurrected, it is because he was Jewish and resurrection is not an item in the Jewish agenda. That's all.

Ben

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#47
Feb 22, 2013
 
Ben to Allen:

Allen: Burial on Wednesday or Thursday is not my opinion that is what some people believe and I was showing how both are wrong. I believe that Jesus was buried about 5 pm Friday afternoon just as scripture says and that he rose just before dawn on Sunday morning just as scripture says.

Ben: It's more clear now. But at the end of that Sabbath just as the first day of the week was dawning, the tomb was empty. No one could affirm as an eyewitness that Jesus had resurrected. God knows when the tomb got empty and by who.

Allen: Is Matt 12:40 the only verse in your Bible?

Ben: No, but it constitutes a contradiction to the other gospels. How can you claim divine inspiration to a book of contradictions?

Allen: Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Ben: This is Pauline verbiage. Jesus suffered from the Romans who crucified not only Jesus but thousands of Jews according to Josephus.

Allen: Mar 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Ben: Three days and three nights. If that cannot be proved, the gospel according to Matthew must go.

Allen: Mar 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Ben: Nevertheless, when the women brought to his disciples the news
that Jesus had resurrected, they all took their words as an idle tale of nonsense.(Luke 24:11) It means that they had never heard from the mouth of Jesus that he would ever resurrect. If that's not
true, the gospel of Luke must go too.

Allen: Luk 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Ben: Now, read Luke 19:37-40. Rather the Pharisees as Jewish
authorities tried to save Jesus from the cross by asking him to stop his disciples from acclaiming him king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem. If that's not true, contradictions!!!

Allen: As I said "in three days" and "after three days" and "on the third day." means the same thing as "three days and three nights"

Ben: No, it does not. "In three days" we can accoust for the part of a day. How about for the part of a night? So, Mat. 12:40 is a blunder. Your view is not according to Jewish tradition.

Allen: "In three days" and "on the third day" both would not include the third night.

Ben: According to your gospel, not to those of the NT.

Allen: So according to scripture "in three days,""after three days,""on the third day,"" and "three days and three nights" mean the same thing. Which does not necessarily mean three complete 24 hour days.

Ben: No, it does not. "In three days" we have two nights. But "in three days and three nights" we must have three days and three nights or parts thereof. Otherwise, the first gospel is wrong.

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#48
Feb 22, 2013
 
Ant wrote:
<quoted text>
Passover and Feast of Unleavened bread are also Sabbaths, so it was the day of preparation for those Sabbaths, not the Saturday Sabbath.
Lets say Jesus died Friday @3pm like the scriptures says and rose on a Sunday before the sun rose, which would be 6 or 7 am. That would be 39-40 hrs in the grave and not even be 2 days. When Jesus said he would be in the grave 3 days, he meant 3 days. That's All!
---------

If the passover was on Wednesday as you claim, the next day, according to Mat. 28:1 would not be Sunday but Thursday. In that case you have knocked down the gospel of Matthew, because that's what he says: "After the Sabbath, as the first day of the week aka Sunday was dawning..." (Mat. 28:1)

Ben
Ant

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#49
Feb 22, 2013
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
---------
If the passover was on Wednesday as you claim, the next day, according to Mat. 28:1 would not be Sunday but Thursday. In that case you have knocked down the gospel of Matthew, because that's what he says: "After the Sabbath, as the first day of the week aka Sunday was dawning..." (Mat. 28:1)
Ben
Yes, after the Sabbath (Saturday) they went to the tomb. There is no work allowed on Feast Of Unleavened Bread.

Lev 23
6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.

So IF passover was Friday and Unleavened Bread was Saturday, they still couldnt buy or purchase any spices since it is a Sabbath day and no work is allowed.

Matthew 27
62 On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, 63 saying,“Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said,‘After three days I will rise.’ 64 Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night[m] and steal Him away, and say to the people,‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”

65 Pilate said to them,“You have a guard; go your way, make it as secure as you know how.” 66 So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard.

So the Romans put guards out there at dark after sunset on Thursday and we was to guard the tomb until the third day

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

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#50
Feb 22, 2013
 

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Allen Richards wrote:

No you are not reading. You are ignoring everything I posted and just repeating your same argument over and over and over as if by repetition you can somehow make it so. In Jewish thought a part of a day was considered a whole day. As shown by the sources I quoted, above, "three days and three nights" means the same thing as "in three days,""on the third day," and "after three days."
How do you get three full days and three full nights, if, according to your argument, Jesus was crucified around 4-5pm Wednesday or Thursday afternoon, and resurrected around 5am Sunday morning?
.
If Jesus was buried around 4-5pm Wednesday, three full days and nights, he would be resurrected around 4-5pm Saturday.
.
If Jesus was buried around 4-5pm Thursday, three full days and nights, he would be resurrected around 4-5pm Sunday.
.
As the scripture shows Jesus was resurrected around dawn on Sunday. Your calculation is either 12 hours more or less than three days and three nights.
.
Nice try. Nothing but your opinion.
End Quote wrote:
.
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
--------
Okay Allen, if you want this way, here it is: What you have posted does not make sense at all for two reasons: First you don't quote anything to document your assertions. And second, what you say IMHO
only contradicts the written text. That's all. Quote what you say, and I'll be glad to comply.
Ben
<><
What exactly do you think I should document? Can you not count from Wednesday to Monday and from Thursday to Monday?
<><
If you are talking about this, "In Jewish thought a part of a day was considered a whole day. As shown by the sources I quoted, above,'three days and three nights' means the same thing as 'in three days,''on the third day,' and 'after three days.'" I have already posted the documentation at least twice in the thread and you have ignored it. This shows that you are not even reading my posts.

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#51
Feb 22, 2013
 

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Ben_Masada wrote:
------
And I live in Israel for 20 years. But I prefer to dialogue in English, if you understand me well enough. You might have studied Hebrew but you don't give off enough evidences that you are an expert in Jewish Culture.
<><
That is why I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud. If yhou would actually read my posts you would know that.
<><
But that's not important. Can we get back
to the issue? If you wonder why, as a Jew, I am fighting against the possibility that Jesus resurrected, it is because he was Jewish and resurrection is not an item in the Jewish agenda. That's all.
Ben
<><
Jesus himself said he would rise again. Job predicts that after he is dead and the worms have destroyed his body, he will, in his own flesh, see his redeemere.
.
19:25-26:
"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."
.
Daniel prophesied the resurrection.
.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

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#52
Feb 22, 2013
 

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Ben_Masada wrote:
Ben to Allen:
Allen: Burial on Wednesday or Thursday is not my opinion that is what some people believe and I was showing how both are wrong. I believe that Jesus was buried about 5 pm Friday afternoon just as scripture says and that he rose just before dawn on Sunday morning just as scripture says.

Ben: It's more clear now. But at the end of that Sabbath just as the first day of the week was dawning, the tomb was empty. No one could affirm as an eyewitness that Jesus had resurrected. God knows when the tomb got empty and by who.
<><
Irrelevant. Jesus said "in three days,""the third day,""after three days," and "three days and three nights" Which all meant the same thing to Jesus and the Jews.
<><
Allen: Is Matt 12:40 the only verse in your Bible?
Ben: No, but it constitutes a contradiction to the other gospels. How can you claim divine inspiration to a book of contradictions?
<><
There is no contradiction as I have explained and documented from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud.
<><
Allen: Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Ben: This is Pauline verbiage. Jesus suffered from the Romans who crucified not only Jesus but thousands of Jews according to Josephus.
<><
Garbage! This was written by Matthew, not Paul
<><
Allen: Mar 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Ben: Three days and three nights. If that cannot be proved, the gospel according to Matthew must go.
<><
More antiChristian garbage! Fortunately phony wannabe jews who don't even know Jewish history don't dictate how the NT is translated.
<><
Allen: Mar 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Ben: Nevertheless, when the women brought to his disciples the news
that Jesus had resurrected, they all took their words as an idle tale of nonsense.(Luke 24:11) It means that they had never heard from the mouth of Jesus that he would ever resurrect. If that's not
true, the gospel of Luke must go too.
<><
Garbage! They did not understand Jesus' references to his crucifixion and resurrection and doubted what the women said. This is clearly stated in the NT more than once.
<><

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#53
Feb 22, 2013
 

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[previous post continued]
Allen: Luk 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Ben: Now, read Luke 19:37-40. Rather the Pharisees as Jewish authorities tried to save Jesus from the cross by asking him to stop his disciples from acclaiming him king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem. If that's not true, contradictions!!!
<><
More garbage. The Pharisees had no interest in saving jesus' life, they tried to stop the crowd because they did not accept Jesus as the Messiah and thought the crowd was blaspheming. You have not shown anything to be a contradiction. Just copy pasting anti-Christian garbage.
<><
Allen: As I said "in three days" and "after three days" and "on the third day." means the same thing as "three days and three nights"

Ben: No, it does not. "In three days" we can accoust for the part of a day. How about for the part of a night? So, Mat. 12:40 is a blunder. Your view is not according to Jewish tradition.
Allen: "In three days" and "on the third day" both would not include the third night.
<><
Garbage. Your opinion is meaningless. I proved my argument from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud.
<><
Allen: So according to scripture "in three days,""after three days,""on the third day,"" and "three days and three nights" mean the same thing. Which does not necessarily mean three complete 24 hour days.

Ben: No, it does not. "In three days" we have two nights. But "in three days and three nights" we must have three days and three nights or parts thereof. Otherwise, the first gospel is wrong.
<><
More of your irrelevant opinion. I have proved you wrong, more than once, from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud. You are just a phony wannabe jew spouting anti-Christian garbage

“Jesus=only way into Heaven”

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#54
Feb 22, 2013
 

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Great posts Allen! God Bless you for "earnestly contenting for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints".-Jude 1:3
socci

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#55
Feb 22, 2013
 
A Double Sabbath
If Friday was the day of crucifixion then this day would have to be a preparation day for not only Passover but also for the Seventh day Sabbath of the Lord and would therefore be a double Sabbath. Can we prove this from the Word of God for even further evidence? In the Bible, Passover is always called Passover and the Seventh day Sabbath is always called the Sabbath. John 19:31 below says "THE Sabbath" with the word "THE" being the definite article, that is, not "A sabbath" but "THE Sabbath." Hence this is and can only be the weekly Sabbath. John 19:14 confirms it is a double sabbath. This day is not only the preparation for "THE Sabbath" but also the preparation for "THE Passover" and why it is called a high day.

John 19:14 "And it was the preparation of the Passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!"

John 19:31 "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day,(for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."

continues

www.wednesdaycrucifixion.com
socci

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#56
Feb 22, 2013
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
If you wonder why, as a Jew, I am fighting against the possibility that Jesus resurrected, it is because he was Jewish and resurrection is not an item in the Jewish agenda. That's all.
Ben

Yea resurrection was prophesied in OT passages as was Messiah fulfilled only by Jesus. Feel free to start another thread. This one is about why Wed is not the right day.

The Jews 2000 years ago knew this all too well as the entire sacrificial system was set up around this type - antitype. The sacrificial system began long before Israel with the first sacrifice of a lamb to cover Adam and Eve, we are told. This lamb symbolizing Jesus the lamb of God.

The wages of sin is death. Adam and Eve were told if they sinned they would die. Yet their sin was covered with the lamb's blood.

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#57
Feb 23, 2013
 
Ant wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, after the Sabbath (Saturday) they went to the tomb. There is no work allowed on Feast Of Unleavened Bread.
Lev 23
6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.
So IF passover was Friday and Unleavened Bread was Saturday, they still couldnt buy or purchase any spices since it is a Sabbath day and no work is allowed.
Matthew 27
62 On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, 63 saying,“Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said,‘After three days I will rise.’ 64 Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night[m] and steal Him away, and say to the people,‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”
65 Pilate said to them,“You have a guard; go your way, make it as secure as you know how.” 66 So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard.
So the Romans put guards out there at dark after sunset on Thursday and we was to guard the tomb until the third day
---------

The women did not buy the spices on the hours of the Sabbath but after the Sabbath was over. Read Mark 16:1.

If Jesus said that after three days he would rise how is it that his disciples didn't believe him?(Luke 24:11) It seems to me he never said such a thing as Jews do not believe in bodily resurrection.

About the guards set at the tomb area it was next day after "The Day of Preparation." Therefore, Saturday because "The Day of Preparation" in Judaism is the Friday. It just happened that the Passover fell on the weekly Sabbath which made of it a "High Sabbath." Every festival falling on the weekly Sabbath makes of it a "High Sabbath." (John 19:31)

You can never prove with a quote that the Romans put the guards out
there at dark after sunset on Thursday. That's according to your own private gospel. I cannot refute your own gospel.

Ben

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#58
Feb 23, 2013
 
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
What exactly do you think I should document? Can you not count from Wednesday to Monday and from Thursday to Monday?
<><
If you are talking about this, "In Jewish thought a part of a day was considered a whole day. As shown by the sources I quoted, above,'three days and three nights' means the same thing as 'in three days,''on the third day,' and 'after three days.'" I have already posted the documentation at least twice in the thread and you have ignored it. This shows that you are not even reading my posts.
-------

For starters, you ought to document where it says that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday. I have docomented that he was crucified on Friday about midday, buried just before sunset and toward the dawn of Sunday, when the stone was removed, the tomb was empty. This is my assertion.(Mat. 27:62; 28:1; Mark 16:1; John 18:28) If you can
not quote yours, at least try to refute mine.

I have already told you that I accept the concept of a whole day for the part of a day or the whole night for the part of a night. That very short time of Friday just before sunset is one whole day.
The night of Friday is the first whole night. Saturday is the second day. The night of Saturday is the second night. Therefore, two days and two nights. Mat. 12:40 failed; as simple as that. Not too big a deal anyway; the NT is crowded with contradictions.

Ben

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#59
Feb 23, 2013
 
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
Job predicts that after he is dead and the worms have destroyed his body, he will, in his own flesh, see his redeemere.
.
19:25-26:
"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."
.
Daniel prophesied the resurrection.
.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
-------

Job in 19:25,26 is talking about recuperation that he trusted he would achieve and again would enjoy God as before when healthy. He knew that once dead he would never return.(Job 7:9; 10:21)

Daniel never prophesied about bodily resurrection. In 12:2 he was referring to the exiles that would return to the Land of Israel and those who would remain in the Diaspora.

According to Isaiah 53:8,9, when Jews are forced into exile it is as if they have been cut off from the Land of the living which is Israel and graves are assigned to them among the nations. At the end of the exile, the Lord metaphorically opens up those graves and brings the Jews back to the Land of Israel. That's in Ezekiel 37:12.

Then according to Daniel 12:2, those who return "live forever" as an euphemism to life in the Land of Israel; and those who remain in exile become subject to everlasting shame and disgrace as a slave whom freedom is given and prefers to continue in slavery.

Ben

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#60
Feb 23, 2013
 
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
<><
Irrelevant. Jesus said "in three days,""the third day,""after three days," and "three days and three nights" Which all meant the same thing to Jesus and the Jews.
<><
<quoted text>
<><
There is no contradiction as I have explained and documented from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud.
<><
<quoted text>
<><
Garbage! This was written by Matthew, not Paul
<><
<quoted text>
<><
More antiChristian garbage! Fortunately phony wannabe jews who don't even know Jewish history don't dictate how the NT is translated.
<><
<quoted text>
<><
Garbage! They did not understand Jesus' references to his crucifixion and resurrection and doubted what the women said. This is clearly stated in the NT more than once.
Do you know something Allen? This whole issue about Jesus' resurrection is nothing but a Christian attempt to vandalize Judaism which was the Faith of Jesus with a the Christian doctrine of the resurrection which has nothing to do with Judaism. Paul himself declared to his disciple Timothy that Jesus' resurrection was according to his - Paul's - gospel.(2 Tim. 2:8) I find it stupid that we should waste our time with something that Paul himself has revealed the truth about it. This is as simple as the fact that Paul was the one who fabricated the whole idea.

Ben

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#61
Feb 23, 2013
 
Romans Road wrote:
Great posts Allen! God Bless you for "earnestly contenting for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints".-Jude 1:3
-----

RR, did you know that Jesus was a Jewish person whose Faith was Judaism? That's the Faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Take a look at Revelation 14:12. "Here is the patience of the saints; those who keep the commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus. If the Faith of Jesus was Judaism, Rev. 14:12 is talking about the Jews.

Ben

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