Crucifixion Before Passover

Crucifixion Before Passover

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Since: Nov 09

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#1 Feb 16, 2013
CRUCIFIXION BEFORE PASSOVER

In the attempt to play a fast one to fix the contradiction of the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 many Christians try to anticipate Jesus' crucifixion so as to spare the gospels the embarrassment of a fiasco. They can no longer. I have found the straw that broke the camel's back. It is in John 18:28.

The text says that, "At daybreak, they brought Jesus from Caiafas to the Praetorium of Pilate. They did not enter the Praetorium themselves for they had to avoid ritual impurity if they were to eat the Passover Supper that evening." Mind you that this text is after the Gethsemani, as the events occurred after Jesus had been arrested and taken to stand trial before the Sanhedrin that night of Thursday. It means that Jesus missed the real Passover that year.

How about the so-called Passover that Jesus' disciples prepared for him before he was arrested that night in the Gethsemani? That's an evidence that the hellenists who wrote the gospels had no idea about Jewish culture as festivals were concerned. So, they called Jewish Passover what had been only a regular supper. They probably did not know that according to Jewsish tradition, the Passover had to be celebrated on the 14th of Nisan or a month later for those who, for some reason, could not celebrate together with the People. A month later but never before.(Numbers 9:11)

So, the real sequence of the events was that Jesus had a last supper Thursday evening with his disciples before going to the Gethesemani where he was arrested and brought before the Sanhedrin. At daybreak that Friday, Jesus was taken to Pilate. About 9am Jesus was crucified, about 3pm he was dead and at the sunset he was laid in his tomb. At the end of that Sabbath, the tomb was empty. Now, figure what happened if you can.

Ben

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#2 Feb 16, 2013
[b]Jewish Encyclopedia – DAY[/b]

In the Bible, the season of light (Gen. i. 5), lasting "from dawn [lit. "the rising of the morning"] to the coming forth of the stars" (Neh. iv. 15, 17). The term "day" is used also to denote a period of twenty-four hours (Ex. xxi. 21). In Jewish communal life part of a day is at times reckoned as one day; e.g., the day of the funeral, even when the latter takes place late in the afternoon, is counted as the first of the seven days of mourning; a short time in the morning of the seventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though of the first day only a few minutes remained after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day. Again, a man who hears of a vow made by his wife or his daughter, and desires to cancel the vow, must do so on the same day on which he hears of it, as otherwise the protest has no effect; even if the hearing takes place a little time before night, the annulment must be done within that little time. The day is reckoned from evening to evening—i.e., night and day—except in reference to sacrifices, where daytime and the night following constitute one day (Lev. vii. 15; see Calendar). "The day" denotes:(a) Day of the Lord; (b) the Day of Atonement; (c) the treatise of the Mishnah that contains the laws concerning the Day of Atonement (See Yoma and Sabbath).E. G. H. M. F.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp...

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#3 Feb 18, 2013
Allen Richards wrote:
[b]Jewish Encyclopedia – DAY[/b]
In the Bible, the season of light (Gen. i. 5), lasting "from dawn [lit. "the rising of the morning"] to the coming forth of the stars" (Neh. iv. 15, 17). The term "day" is used also to denote a period of twenty-four hours (Ex. xxi. 21). In Jewish communal life part of a day is at times reckoned as one day; e.g., the day of the funeral, even when the latter takes place late in the afternoon, is counted as the first of the seven days of mourning; a short time in the morning of the seventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though of the first day only a few minutes remained after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day. Again, a man who hears of a vow made by his wife or his daughter, and desires to cancel the vow, must do so on the same day on which he hears of it, as otherwise the protest has no effect; even if the hearing takes place a little time before night, the annulment must be done within that little time. The day is reckoned from evening to evening—i.e., night and day—except in reference to sacrifices, where daytime and the night following constitute one day (Lev. vii. 15; see Calendar). "The day" denotes:(a) Day of the Lord; (b) the Day of Atonement; (c) the treatise of the Mishnah that contains the laws concerning the Day of Atonement (See Yoma and Sabbath).E. G. H. M. F.
------

Okay, so taken into account the methord of a day, even if it is only of a few minutes, Jesus was buried that evening just prior to the beginning of the Sabbath. One day for those minutes Jesus was on the way to the tomb. All that Friday night till the rising of the sun that Saturday morning is one night. From sunrise and until sunset, we have the second day. And from sunset until the dawn of the first day or Sunday, we have the second night. Therefore, two days and two nights. Now, what do you have in mind to fix the prediction of Mat. 12:40 of three days and three nights? There is no piece left to complete the puzzle. Either the guy who wrote the gospel of Matthew did not know what he was talking about or Jesus' resurrection never happened.
Ben
Thinking

Ilminster, UK

#4 Feb 18, 2013
Poppadoms Before Starters.

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#5 Feb 18, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
------
Okay, so taken into account the methord of a day, even if it is only of a few minutes, Jesus was buried that evening just prior to the beginning of the Sabbath. One day for those minutes Jesus was on the way to the tomb. All that Friday night till the rising of the sun that Saturday morning is one night. From sunrise and until sunset, we have the second day. And from sunset until the dawn of the first day or Sunday, we have the second night. Therefore, two days and two nights. Now, what do you have in mind to fix the prediction of Mat. 12:40 of three days and three nights? There is no piece left to complete the puzzle. Either the guy who wrote the gospel of Matthew did not know what he was talking about or Jesus' resurrection never happened.
Ben
<><
Using a screen name of Ben Masada implies some connection with or knowledge of Judaism. If that is correct you should know this.
tektonic.org wrote:
[/quote]
This is actually an instance in which we need to understand Jewish idiom, which understood "a day and a night" to include even the smallest part of a day and night. A Jewish source from after the time of the New Testament puts it this way: "A day and a night are an Onah ['a portion of time'] and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it" [J.Talmud, Shabbath 9.3 and b.Talmud, Pesahim 4a] Other examples of this kind of usage can be found throughout the Bible (Gen. 42:16, 1Kings 20:29, Esth. 4:16, Matt. 27:63). Jesus was in the tomb for only a small part of Friday and Sunday, but that counts according to Jewish idiom for the entire "day and night" for each of those days.

The fuller cite from the Talmud reads:

Weigh well that which is disputed in the tract Schabbath, concerning the uncleanness of a woman for three days; where many things are discussed by the Gemarists concerning the computation of this space of three days. Among other things, these words occur; "R. Ismael saith, Sometimes it contains four Onoth, sometimes five, sometimes six. But how much is the space of an Onah? R. Jochanon saith either a day or a night." And so also the Jerusalem Talmud; "R. Akiba fixed a day for an Onah, and a night for an Onah: but the tradition is, that R. Eliezar Ben Azariah said, A day and a night make an Onah, and a part of an Onah is as a whole." And a little after, R. Ismael computeth a part of the Onah for the whole.(p. 210, vol. 2, Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica)

As an aside, a strawman set up against this argues that because the reason for the discussion is a menstrual cycle, then this designation applies only for menstrual cycles. That is not the case. While the menstrual cycle was the "problem" causing the discussion, the resolution is completely independent of the problem and is not uniquely associated with it.
…
I also found an answer I like just as much in Pinchas Lapide's The Resurrection of Jesus (91-2). He takes the reference to the "third day" as alluding to various passages in the OT where the after a "third day" something happens in the "history of salvation," (Gen. 22:4, 42:18; Ex. 19:16; Jonah 1:17; Esther 5:1; Hos. 6:2) and thus "has nothing to do with the date or counting of time but contains for ears which are educated biblically a clear reference to God's mercy and grace which is revealed after two days of afflication and death by way of redemption."

In other words, it is a literary device, and thus must be read as one.

http://www.tektonics.org/af/bucknerj01.html#d...
[QUOTE who="<END QUOTE>"]
S_O_C_K_S

Columbia, SC

#6 Feb 19, 2013
[QUOTE who="atheists-r-us .com"][/QUOTE]Just posting meaningless stuff to see if quote bloks werk.
End quote wrote:
Fit werks ok, if not ok2.
S_O_C_K_S

Columbia, SC

#7 Feb 19, 2013
[QUOTE who="atheists.r.us"] [/QUOTE]Just posting meaningless stuff to see if quote bloks werk.
End Quote wrote:
Fit werks ok, if not ok2.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#8 Feb 19, 2013
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
<><
Using a screen name of Ben Masada implies some connection with or knowledge of Judaism. If that is correct you should know this.
<quoted text>
---------

That's exactly the method I used in post #3. You did not have to go
through the paraphernalia of the Talmud. I accept the "inclusive" onah of the Talmud. I still can't find more than two days and two nights. I think we have no choice but to admit that the guy who wrote the book of Matthew was completely ignorant of Jewish culture.(Mat. 12:40) Why don't you figure the details of the crucifixion from Friday toward the dawn of Sunday and tell me if you can find any more than two days and two nights?

Ben

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#9 Feb 19, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
---------
That's exactly the method I used in post #3. You did not have to go
through the paraphernalia of the Talmud. I accept the "inclusive" onah of the Talmud. I still can't find more than two days and two nights. I think we have no choice but to admit that the guy who wrote the book of Matthew was completely ignorant of Jewish culture.(Mat. 12:40) Why don't you figure the details of the crucifixion from Friday toward the dawn of Sunday and tell me if you can find any more than two days and two nights?
Ben
You are not reading the source or the scripture.

Day one. Part of Friday, until sundown.

Day two. Sundown Friday, the Sabbath begins, until sun rise Saturday, one full night, Sabbath sunrise to sunset.

Day three. Sundown Saturday until sun rise Sunday, one full night, until just before sunrise Sunday.

In the Jewish idiom Paraskeue, Friday in English, and part of Sunday were considered a day and a night.

All four gospels identify the day that Jesus was crucified as paraskeue, which is translated as "preparation." Paraskeue was the Greek name for Friday.

It is not Matthew who does not know what he is talking about.
Kevin McMillen

Morgantown, WV

#10 Feb 19, 2013
Passover the year Jesus died was on a Wednesday, the next day was the First day of Unleavened Bread (a Sabbath), he was resurected three days and three nights later on what we call Saturday night about sunset.
Kevin McMillen

Morgantown, WV

#11 Feb 19, 2013
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>

All four gospels identify the day that Jesus was crucified as paraskeue, which is translated as "preparation." Paraskeue was the Greek name for Friday.
It is not Matthew who does not know what he is talking about.
Paraskeue was not the name for Friday, it was the name of any day prior to a Sabbath, whether that Sabbath was the weekly Sabbath or a Festival Sabbath.

Jesus died on the 14th day of the first month, Passover. That year it fell on a Wednesday. The next day, the 15th day of the first month, Thursday was the first day of unleavened bread, a Sabbath.

Three days and three nights later was Saturday night when the wave sheaf was cut. This is when Jesus was resurected.

The next day, while it was still dark is when they came to the tomb and found it already empty.
Kevin McMillen

Morgantown, WV

#12 Feb 19, 2013
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
<><
Using a screen name of Ben Masada implies some connection with or knowledge of Judaism. If that is correct you should know this.
<quoted text>
Why should Jesus use Jewish tradition? He said three days and three nights, he meant three days and three nights.

It's not the scripture that is faulty, it's you guys understanding of scripture that is faulty.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#14 Feb 20, 2013
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
You are not reading the source or the scripture.
Day one. Part of Friday, until sundown.
Day two. Sundown Friday, the Sabbath begins, until sun rise Saturday, one full night, Sabbath sunrise to sunset.
Day three. Sundown Saturday until sun rise Sunday, one full night, until just before sunrise Sunday.
In the Jewish idiom Paraskeue, Friday in English, and part of Sunday were considered a day and a night.
All four gospels identify the day that Jesus was crucified as paraskeue, which is translated as "preparation." Paraskeue was the Greek name for Friday.
It is not Matthew who does not know what he is talking about.
----------

I am reading. I agree that day one is part of Friday till sundown.
Then comes night one; the night from sundown at Friday to the dawn of Saturday. Then comes day two from the dawn of Saturday to sunddown of Saturday. And night two from sundown that Saturday till the dawn of Sunday when the tumb was empty.= Two days and two nights; while Mat. 12:40 says three days and three nights. Nice try though!

Ben

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#15 Feb 20, 2013
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
You are not reading the source or the scripture.
Day one. Part of Friday, until sundown.
Day two. Sundown Friday, the Sabbath begins, until sun rise Saturday, one full night, Sabbath sunrise to sunset.
Day three. Sundown Saturday until sun rise Sunday, one full night, until just before sunrise Sunday.
In the Jewish idiom Paraskeue, Friday in English, and part of Sunday were considered a day and a night.
All four gospels identify the day that Jesus was crucified as paraskeue, which is translated as "preparation." Paraskeue was the Greek name for Friday.
It is not Matthew who does not know what he is talking about.
------

Oh! I forgot to tell you that Jesus was a Jewish man and not Greek.
He died in Israel and was buried in Israel and not in Greece. So, let us do it in Hebrew and not in Greek.

Ben

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#16 Feb 20, 2013
Kevin McMillen wrote:
<quoted text>
Why should Jesus use Jewish tradition? He said three days and three nights, he meant three days and three nights.
It's not the scripture that is faulty, it's you guys understanding of scripture that is faulty.
-------

I liked your question: Why should Jesus use Jewish tradition? This implies that he was not Jewish but Greek. That solves all the problem and I can rest my case. For we are not talking about a Jew
but a Greek.

Ben

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#17 Feb 20, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
----------
I am reading. I agree that day one is part of Friday till sundown.
Then comes night one; the night from sundown at Friday to the dawn of Saturday. Then comes day two from the dawn of Saturday to sunddown of Saturday. And night two from sundown that Saturday till the dawn of Sunday when the tumb was empty.= Two days and two nights; while Mat. 12:40 says three days and three nights. Nice try though!
Ben
No you are not reading. You are ignoring everything I posted and just repeating your same argument over and over and over as if by repetition you can somehow make it so. In Jewish thought a part of a day was considered a whole day. As shown by the sources I quoted, above, "three days and three nights" means the same thing as "in three days,""on the third day," and "after three days."

How do you get three full days and three full nights, if, according to your argument, Jesus was crucified around 4-5pm Wednesday or Thursday afternoon, and resurrected around 5am Sunday morning?

If Jesus was buried around 4-5pm Wednesday, three full days and nights, he would be resurrected around 4-5pm Saturday.

If Jesus was buried around 4-5pm Thursday, three full days and nights, he would be resurrected around 4-5pm Sunday.

As the scripture shows Jesus was resurrected around dawn on Sunday. Your calculation is either 12 hours more or less than three days and three nights.

Nice try. Nothing but your opinion.

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#18 Feb 20, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
------
Oh! I forgot to tell you that Jesus was a Jewish man and not Greek.
He died in Israel and was buried in Israel and not in Greece. So, let us do it in Hebrew and not in Greek.
Ben
More evidence that you are not reading what I post. I did inform the other person that Jesus was a Jew talking to other Jews in 1st century Israel. In this post.

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/christian...

And I have not said anything about Greece or Greek. I have quoted Hebrew sources, e.g. the Talmud and Jewish Encyclopedia, which you have ignored.
Kevin McMillen

Morgantown, WV

#19 Feb 21, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
-------
I liked your question: Why should Jesus use Jewish tradition? This implies that he was not Jewish but Greek. That solves all the problem and I can rest my case. For we are not talking about a Jew
but a Greek.
Ben
No, it implies that Jesus is above the traditions of men.

Have you ever read the Mishnah, do you know the traditions of the Jews?

Jesus was a Jew, not Greek.
buck

AOL

#20 Feb 21, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
CRUCIFIXION BEFORE PASSOVER
In the attempt to play a fast one to fix the contradiction of the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 many Christians try to anticipate Jesus' crucifixion so as to spare the gospels the embarrassment of a fiasco. They can no longer. I have found the straw that broke the camel's back. It is in John 18:28.
The text says that, "At daybreak, they brought Jesus from Caiafas to the Praetorium of Pilate. They did not enter the Praetorium themselves for they had to avoid ritual impurity if they were to eat the Passover Supper that evening." Mind you that this text is after the Gethsemani, as the events occurred after Jesus had been arrested and taken to stand trial before the Sanhedrin that night of Thursday. It means that Jesus missed the real Passover that year.
How about the so-called Passover that Jesus' disciples prepared for him before he was arrested that night in the Gethsemani? That's an evidence that the hellenists who wrote the gospels had no idea about Jewish culture as festivals were concerned. So, they called Jewish Passover what had been only a regular supper. They probably did not know that according to Jewsish tradition, the Passover had to be celebrated on the 14th of Nisan or a month later for those who, for some reason, could not celebrate together with the People. A month later but never before.(Numbers 9:11)
So, the real sequence of the events was that Jesus had a last supper Thursday evening with his disciples before going to the Gethesemani where he was arrested and brought before the Sanhedrin. At daybreak that Friday, Jesus was taken to Pilate. About 9am Jesus was crucified, about 3pm he was dead and at the sunset he was laid in his tomb. At the end of that Sabbath, the tomb was empty. Now, figure what happened if you can.
Ben
okay so smart ben (you think you are so self righteous) where does the missing day fit in? what day do you suppose is missing? remember the sun stood still for nearly a day and then at one time the degree of the sun was turned back 10 degrees.
that adds up to about one day missing.
today in our society and by our calendar that has stood for quite a length of time; today is Thursday February 21, 2013. Now if you calculate this missing day IT IS NOT ACTUALLY THURSDAY.
GET THE DRIFT KEVIN? is it sinking in?
Kevin McMillen

Morgantown, WV

#21 Feb 21, 2013
buck wrote:
<quoted text>
okay so smart ben (you think you are so self righteous) where does the missing day fit in? what day do you suppose is missing? remember the sun stood still for nearly a day and then at one time the degree of the sun was turned back 10 degrees.
that adds up to about one day missing.
today in our society and by our calendar that has stood for quite a length of time; today is Thursday February 21, 2013. Now if you calculate this missing day IT IS NOT ACTUALLY THURSDAY.
GET THE DRIFT KEVIN? is it sinking in?
Buck, again you show your ignorance. The days in the bible were not determined by hours, they were determined by sunset to sunset. So the number of hours the long day had, about 48, is irrelevant.

Even Jesus about 1500 years later said nothing about Joshua's long day when it came to reconning the Sabbath. He kept it right along with the Jews of his day.

Joshua's long day is a fallacious strawman argument.

GET THE DRIFT BUCK? is it sinking in?

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