Why are you looking forward to heaven?
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#129 Mar 23, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
By your criteria on ancient history we would have to reject most of it because there is no "Independent sources" refers to two or more "unconnected" people, organizations, entities or objects which provide a given set of information."
Not my criteria the criteria of educated, prominent historians.
Jeff wrote:
For example; who recorded Caesar crossing the Rubicon and when did they do so? What other eyewitness accounts do we have of this happening on the day it happened? Where are the multiple eyewitness accounts for the battles of Alexander? Where are the multiple eyewitness accounts for Nero setting Rome on fire?
You wrote-“If a number of 'independent sources' contain the same message, the credibility of the message is strongly increased.”
The historian Tacitus claimed he was in Rome during the great fire. Pliny the Elder, Seneca, Cassius Dio and Suetonius, and also wrote about it. They give several different reasons for the fire so historians are not sure that the reason given by Tacitus is accurate. There is no “independent corroboration” of the reason given by Tacitus

Historical documents claim that Alexander the Great was the "Son of Ammon–Zeus". Do you accept that as absolutely accurate?
Jeff wrote:
You should believe the gospels since there are 4 independent authors who wrote at different times and in different places.
Four Christians are not four independent sources.

"’unconnected’ people, organizations, entities or objects”
Jeff wrote:
The gospels are not anonymous. The names associated with them have always been attached to them and no else's name has been.
Most of the Bible scolars in the world would disagree with you.you have no evidence to back up that statement.

“The first four historical books of the New Testament are supplied with titles (Euaggelion kata Matthaion, Euaggelion kata Markon, etc.), which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those sacred writings.”- New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia
Jeff wrote:
I agree that NDE's have a subjective element to them. However they do prove some survival of an individual that is not dependent on the physical body. We know from a number of cases that those in this state accurately described events miles away from where their bodies were. This eliminates the idea of the brain shutting down.
There is no scientifically documented evidence of remote viewing,in claimed cases of NDE, there is only anecdotal evidence. There is also anecdotal evidence for the existence of leprechauns.

“Recently, a host of studies has revealed potential underpinnings for all the elements of such experiences [NDEs].”- Charles Q. Choi, Scientific American
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#130 Mar 23, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
Not my criteria the criteria of educated, prominent historians.
<quoted text>
The historian Tacitus claimed he was in Rome during the great fire. Pliny the Elder, Seneca, Cassius Dio and Suetonius, and also wrote about it. They give several different reasons for the fire so historians are not sure that the reason given by Tacitus is accurate. There is no “independent corroboration” of the reason given by Tacitus
Historical documents claim that Alexander the Great was the "Son of Ammon–Zeus". Do you accept that as absolutely accurate?
<quoted text>
Four Christians are not four independent sources.
"’unconnected’ people, organizations, entities or objects”
<quoted text>
Most of the Bible scolars in the world would disagree with you.you have no evidence to back up that statement.
“The first four historical books of the New Testament are supplied with titles (Euaggelion kata Matthaion, Euaggelion kata Markon, etc.), which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those sacred writings.”- New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia
In regards to sources for Christ outside the NT we have:
"Of the Jewish resources--Josephus and the Rabbinical writings (e.g. Talmud, Midrash)--BOTH make clear references to the existence of Jesus (even though the details reported may be odd). So ALL the Jewish sources refer to Him.
In addition, there are three OTHER candidates for historical 'mentions' of Jesus that fall in the 2nd century: one Roman (Pliny the Younger), one possibly Syrian (Mara Bar Serapion), and one Samaritian (Thallus).
I would like to take these in probable historical order.
•(First, a methodological note about the issue of 'independent sources')
• Thallus (c. 50-75ad)[4/2/96]
• Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews, c.93)
• Letter from Pliny the Younger to Trajan (c. 110)
• Tacitus (Annals, c.115-120)
• Suetonius (Lives of the Caesars, c. 125)
• Galen (various writings, c.150)
• Celsus (True Discourse, c.170).
• Mara Bar Serapion (pre-200?)
• Talmudic References( written after 300 CE, but some refs probably go back to eyewitnesses)". The Christian ThinkTank.

As for Alexander being a "son of god", no. As great as Alexander was as a military leader he was no god in the sense of God i.e. as creator. It is said of Christ that He created all things and was God incarnate. He proved this by His life and miracles.

Four Christians writing in different locations and times makes them independent. 2 of them were eyewitnesses to Christ. One was written through another apostle (Mark for Peter). Luke wrote his gospel after examining the eyewitnesses carefully. These records are superior to anything other ancient historical figure.

No secular historian of the time refutes or shows the gospels to be in error.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#131 Mar 23, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no scientifically documented evidence of remote viewing,in claimed cases of NDE, there is only anecdotal evidence. There is also anecdotal evidence for the existence of leprechauns.
“Recently, a host of studies has revealed potential underpinnings for all the elements of such experiences [NDEs].”- Charles Q. Choi, Scientific American
This is not true. Some cases have been checked out and shown to be true.

If you want to believe in the existence of leprechauns then be my guest.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#132 Mar 23, 2013
Seentheotherside wrote:
<quoted text>
But most parents have been brainwashed to brainwash their children in the same mythologies that they were.
What have you been brainwashed with?

“It's all in your head”

Since: Dec 12

Austin, TX

#133 Mar 23, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
What have you been brainwashed with?
Unlike you, Reality!
Flygerian

Tulsa, OK

#134 Mar 23, 2013
John from Texas wrote:
<quoted text>
Unlike you, Reality!
The whole world has been brainwashed in one way or another. Religious and non religious alike.

“It's all in your head”

Since: Dec 12

Austin, TX

#135 Mar 23, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
The whole world has been brainwashed in one way or another. Religious and non religious alike.
I cannot argue with that! It is extremely true. The problem is being able to recognize it and try to decipher the whole thing before we die. But then, the important thing is trying.

“It's all in your head”

Since: Dec 12

Austin, TX

#137 Mar 23, 2013
Reality Check wrote:
<quoted text>You can not argue period. Your mom believes in adult abortion. She says to come home, she wants to ring your neck and abort you.
You are a very strange human being!
Cisco Kid

Modesto, CA

#139 Mar 23, 2013
Reality Check wrote:
<quoted text>You are a very common animal. A pet dog.
Are you implying that you are an uncommon animal?

And why do you choose a pet dog as a slight?

DO you have a fixation with....'dogs'?

Have you ever had a pet dog?

I bet your momma had to put porkchop bones in your pockets to get the neighborhood dogs to pay attention to you.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#140 Mar 23, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
In regards to sources for Christ outside the NT we have:
"Of the Jewish resources--Josephus and the Rabbinical writings (e.g. Talmud, Midrash)--BOTH make clear references to the existence of Jesus (even though the details reported may be odd). So ALL the Jewish sources refer to Him.
In addition, there are three OTHER candidates for historical 'mentions' of Jesus that fall in the 2nd century: one Roman (Pliny the Younger), one possibly Syrian (Mara Bar Serapion), and one Samaritian (Thallus).
I would like to take these in probable historical order.
•(First, a methodological note about the issue of 'independent sources')
• Thallus (c. 50-75ad)[4/2/96]
• Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews, c.93)
• Letter from Pliny the Younger to Trajan (c. 110)
• Tacitus (Annals, c.115-120)
• Suetonius (Lives of the Caesars, c. 125)
• Galen (various writings, c.150)
• Celsus (True Discourse, c.170).
• Mara Bar Serapion (pre-200?)
• Talmudic References( written after 300 CE, but some refs probably go back to eyewitnesses)". The Christian ThinkTank.
As for Alexander being a "son of god", no. As great as Alexander was as a military leader he was no god in the sense of God i.e. as creator. It is said of Christ that He created all things and was God incarnate. He proved this by His life and miracles.
Four Christians writing in different locations and times makes them independent. 2 of them were eyewitnesses to Christ. One was written through another apostle (Mark for Peter). Luke wrote his gospel after examining the eyewitnesses carefully. These records are superior to anything other ancient historical figure.
No secular historian of the time refutes or shows the gospels to be in error.
They are not independent sources. For the most part they are copied from one another and they only disagree in trivial details like the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Gospel of John is a specieal case that has hardly anything in common with the Synoptics.

“The Topix Legend of "GS8"!”

Since: Sep 10

Yunited States, North America

#141 Mar 23, 2013
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
They are not independent sources. For the most part they are copied from one another and they only disagree in trivial details like the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Gospel of John is a specieal case that has hardly anything in common with the Synoptic.
Hail Nettie!

Hail Nettie!

Hail Nettie!

down a quart of wine

“The Topix Legend of "GS8"!”

Since: Sep 10

Yunited States, North America

#142 Mar 23, 2013
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, Our life, our sweetness and our hope.

To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve, To thee do we send up our sighs, Mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, And after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus
.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Nettie! Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God, That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Amen.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#143 Mar 23, 2013
GodSmacked wrote:
<quoted text>
Hail Nettie!
Hail Nettie!
Hail Nettie!
down a quart of wine
Something is seriously wrong with you.
one way

Leola, PA

#144 Mar 23, 2013
Because heaven is our home.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#145 Mar 23, 2013
John from Texas wrote:
<quoted text>
Unlike you, Reality!
And Reality is what?
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#146 Mar 23, 2013
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
They are not independent sources. For the most part they are copied from one another and they only disagree in trivial details like the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Gospel of John is a specieal case that has hardly anything in common with the Synoptics.
They do share some common material. That is to be expected since they are writing about the same individual. No different than other historical bios that are written by different authors on the same person.

John certainly does share a lot in common with the other 3. You should read them.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#147 Mar 23, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
And Reality is what?
Something you ignore.
Cisco Kid

Modesto, CA

#148 Mar 23, 2013
GodSmacked wrote:
<quoted text>
Hail Nettie!
Hail Nettie!
Hail Nettie!
down a quart of wine
You sure seem to want to drink a lot.
Have you ever had a doctor check you for being an alcoholic?
Cisco Kid

Modesto, CA

#149 Mar 23, 2013
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
They are not independent sources. For the most part they are copied from one another and they only disagree in trivial details like the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Gospel of John is a specieal case that has hardly anything in common with the Synoptics.
Matt and Luke have some good messages, one aimed to those living amongst Jews and one for the poor.

I like Mark; relates Peter's memories in fast, concise and accurate news reporting.
And one can't say enough about John's personal memoirs and reporting about his friend and the time they spent together.
GoJohn is a very unique, personal and insightful recounting if you ask me.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#150 Mar 23, 2013
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
Something you ignore.
I like your picture of yourself. Its suits you well.

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