Why are you looking forward to heaven?

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#81 Mar 22, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
The brain is shutting down. The problem is that how do we explain how a person who is in a NDE state know what is going on miles away? There have been a number of cases like this that cannot be explained by the brain shutting down.
Read the article I posted.

People have been claiming obe's unrelated to death or nde. The cia and russians used people with these alleged capabilities during the cold war. The only problem is that there is no evidence of a spirit world still...it is not a scientific assertion. It is an assertion of belief without scientific evidence

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#82 Mar 22, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Depends what you mean by "spirit world". The universe is far more mysterious than we can imagine. I think that the NDE's are evidence we are more than our physical bodies.
It is not inconceivable that reality is composed of different dimensions.
Ndes are not evidence of that. It has already been explained without resorting to spirits.

The universe is mysterious......leave the mystery in it..in time it will be explained.

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#83 Mar 22, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
What are the qualifications of an independent witness? If we go by your definition for an independent witness then we might as well jettison history. Take reports of war by soldiers in WW2. By your definition these reports are not historical facts because they were recorded by the participants.
There are over a dozen reports by secular writers that refer to Christ and others mentioned in the NT. Even the Jews in some of their writings recognize that Jesus did works of wonder though that attribute it to sorcery.
We do know who wrote the gospels. The church has always had the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to gospels.
Just because the the imagery in the NDE experiences varies within cultures does not mean that there is no survival of a person's soul in a NDE.
Reports alone shoukd not taken as historical facts.

You refer to secular writers...however you are misleading...those writers only claimed jesus existed...his existence is nlt in quesrion by us here.

You dont know who wrote the bible....go to wiki ..tells u all aboit the facts. You don't know anything about these alleged authors either....you believe anaonymous writings about voices from the sky written during a time where religion was popular. You are not holding a sound belief. Scientific analysis renders it a myth.

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#84 Mar 22, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
We know the Bible is accurate in some of the events and people that it has mentioned by secular historians and archaeologists. I think its also accurate in explaining why the world is messed up. I also find it to be true when I apply its teachings to my life and I have also had specific prayers answered that goes beyond coincidence.
Have you ever been to an Easter service at a church?
This is a bit vague and nlt convincing in the least. Which secular historians uphold the supernatural aspects?

The rest is your feelings that it is insightful and helpful. Hardly an analytical science based approach. Do you believe everything every insightful book claims? If not why this one?
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#85 Mar 22, 2013
cvor wrote:
<quoted text>
Read the article I posted.
People have been claiming obe's unrelated to death or nde. The cia and russians used people with these alleged capabilities during the cold war. The only problem is that there is no evidence of a spirit world still...it is not a scientific assertion. It is an assertion of belief without scientific evidence
I did read the article and it did not address how a person in at NDE state could know what was going on miles away from where they were.
Forget the idea of a "spirit world". I'm relating to you what some people experienced and it was confirmed by others to be true.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#86 Mar 22, 2013
cvor wrote:
<quoted text>
Reports alone shoukd not taken as historical facts.
You refer to secular writers...however you are misleading...those writers only claimed jesus existed...his existence is nlt in quesrion by us here.
You dont know who wrote the bible....go to wiki ..tells u all aboit the facts. You don't know anything about these alleged authors either....you believe anaonymous writings about voices from the sky written during a time where religion was popular. You are not holding a sound belief. Scientific analysis renders it a myth.
What do we know of any ancient writer? Do you realize that the first bio of Alexander the Great was written almost 400 years after his death? Historians accept this as true. The gospels were written within 50 years of Christ and have been shown to be historically reliable. To reject the gospels would require you to reject Alexander since the gospels are better attested to than Alexander.

We do know who wrote most the books of the Bible. Take the gospels. The 4 names of the gospels have always been connected with those gospels. That tells us who wrote them. Matthew and John were disciples of Christ. Mark wrote what the apostle Peter told him to. Luke investigated everything carefully. He was a companion of Paul.

Even if we didn't know who wrote them would not mean they were not historical. It would only mean we don't know who wrote them. We can know if something is historical if we have other writings that concur with the events reported.

“Only Biblical methods will ”

Since: Apr 10

help bring others to Christ

#87 Mar 22, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>What do you do when things are not going well? What do you do when death is at the door of a loved one?
I am mildly curious why you asked me these questions? If you do not mind, would you please sharing your train of thought with me?

My answers are on page 3 if you missed them.

God bless you and yours.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#88 Mar 22, 2013
cvor wrote:
<quoted text>
This is a bit vague and nlt convincing in the least. Which secular historians uphold the supernatural aspects?
The rest is your feelings that it is insightful and helpful. Hardly an analytical science based approach. Do you believe everything every insightful book claims? If not why this one?
Do you know what ancient historians wrote about? They wrote primarily about military figures and politicians in important cities. At the time of Jesus's ministry He was not considered important by the current historians. Where He lived in the empire was on the outskirts. Its no wonder we don't see historians reporting about Him.

Don't know which secular historians uphold the supernatural aspects. Why would that be important?

I believe it for a number of reasons. First is that I believe God exist and created the world. Secondly, I believe He has worked in the world and history through individuals. The miracles are evidence of this. The person of Christ is just to compelling to ignore once you read the gospels. No one comes close in comparison to Him. I believe He spoke the truth and lived it.

I could be wrong about all this. If so, then I'm a fool. However, if Jesus is who He claimed to be and you ignore Him then you will find yourself up a creek without a paddle.

BTW- most of what we believe in life is not based on scientific analysis. Science can help us but it is limited.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#89 Mar 22, 2013
Seriously__ wrote:
<quoted text>
I am mildly curious why you asked me these questions? If you do not mind, would you please sharing your train of thought with me?
My answers are on page 3 if you missed them.
God bless you and yours.
Anyone can claim that they don't need God when things are going well. Its when things are against us and we have no control that really shows how strong our beliefs are.
nc resident

Charlotte, NC

#90 Mar 22, 2013
for me, a Christian, looking forward to heaven is like looking forward to going home after a long trip/ adventure.
nc resident the RETARD

Tokyo, Japan

#99 Mar 22, 2013
nc resident wrote:
for me, a Christian, looking forward to heaven is like looking forward to going home after a long trip/ adventure.
Excellent and timely counsel - but of course the Evangelicals think they know better than the types given by God Himself. Had the SDA Evangelicals studied the textual evidence [Leviticus 4 & 16] they would be less enthusiastic in denying the Scriptures and noting carefully what God has been saying all along per the dictum. But of course they have a mile of excuses about corporate repentance

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#100 Mar 23, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you know what ancient historians wrote about? They wrote primarily about military figures and politicians in important cities. At the time of Jesus's ministry He was not considered important by the current historians. Where He lived in the empire was on the outskirts. Its no wonder we don't see historians reporting about Him.
Don't know which secular historians uphold the supernatural aspects. Why would that be important?
I believe it for a number of reasons. First is that I believe God exist and created the world. Secondly, I believe He has worked in the world and history through individuals. The miracles are evidence of this. The person of Christ is just to compelling to ignore once you read the gospels. No one comes close in comparison to Him. I believe He spoke the truth and lived it.
I could be wrong about all this. If so, then I'm a fool. However, if Jesus is who He claimed to be and you ignore Him then you will find yourself up a creek without a paddle.
BTW- most of what we believe in life is not based on scientific analysis. Science can help us but it is limited.
I don't find credibility to your post at all. You certainly have not established the bible as a valid document. You didn't even mention the writers!!!! A secular historian would give at least some credibility. You mention that historians didn't find Jesus important...well that says something.....if he was REALLY doing miracles and rising from the dead they would have...lol. But alas....he wasn't and didn't and as a result no one bothered.

An actual person that we know something about would help...as would interviews corroborating the information. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.....and at this point all you have done is utilized the bible to assert the extraordinary claim....as a result you have 0 evidence of something that has no proof of being POSSIBLE.

All you have are anonymous stories about things that to this very day have no proof of even being possible....and all you point to are anonymous writers that were picked out by a bunch of religious people! LOL

Please. Do you believe Zeus stories ---- how about Aquaman? You have not differentiated your religious stories from them.

Science isn't everything......but when we are talking about history and analyzing it....it comes in pretty handy. You have essentially ignored science and analysis...because it in no way shape or form upholds that anyone is a god let alone the god from your missing documents from anonymous religious writers.

Were you indoctrinated with this religion as a child?

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#101 Mar 23, 2013
nc resident wrote:
for me, a Christian, looking forward to heaven is like looking forward to going home after a long trip/ adventure.
you referred to a feeling of looking forward to something...what exactly are you looking forward TO? lol

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#102 Mar 23, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Anyone can claim that they don't need God when things are going well. Its when things are against us and we have no control that really shows how strong our beliefs are.
Jeff -- your god seems to exist because people needed hope. When someone is desperate and it is out of their control and you are living in a cave and think fire is magic ---- what do you think will happen?

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#103 Mar 23, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
To reject the gospels would require you to reject Alexander since the gospels are better attested to than Alexander.
OK. I don't have a problem with that. However I think your comparison is way off. ANY written claim that asserts something that isn't proven to be possible does not surpass a written claim that someone took over a piece of land with an army. LOL - that is absurd.

And all you have are anonymous writings --- no originals of them. With Alexander, we know someone was in charge...and even Romans wrote about him. The things in question are the details..and I am fine with leaving it floating. I dont' worship Alexander. Don't care at all.....leave things as undetermined.

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#104 Mar 23, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
I did read the article and it did not address how a person in at NDE state could know what was going on miles away from where they were.
Forget the idea of a "spirit world". I'm relating to you what some people experienced and it was confirmed by others to be true.
well -- it provided an explanation of NDEs so that should put that to rest.

As far as OBE --- I'm not sure science has explained that yet. Not explained means not explained -- unless you can DEMONSTRATE an explanation....?????

It's been thousands of years and we still have no scientific evidence of the supernatural or spirit world....even with tons of cameras in everyone's hands. All we have are guesses, feelings, and assumptions based on them. Over time science has discredited other things of this nature and it will continue to. Not once have we had a breakthrough moment where a scientist has suddenly demonstrated anything supernatural....

“Invisible Pink Unicorn”

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#105 Mar 23, 2013
Prophet of Jesus Christ wrote:
I am not a Christian.
I am a son of God.
so your a Jew. big deal...

“Only Biblical methods will ”

Since: Apr 10

help bring others to Christ

#106 Mar 23, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Anyone can claim that they don't need God when things are going well. Its when things are against us and we have no control that really shows how strong our beliefs are.
Thank you for the answer.

Not sure how my comment lead you to believe that I do not need God. I rely on and obey God when things are going well and when things are not going as well.

God bless you and yours.
Big Al

Grand Rapids, MN

#107 Mar 23, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
What are the qualifications of an independent witness?
"Independent sources" refers to two or more "unconnected" people, organizations, entities or objects which provide a given set of information.

“If a number of 'independent sources' contain the same message, the credibility of the message is strongly increased.”- Olden-Jørgensen and Thurén , Core principles of historical source criticism
Jeff wrote:
If we go by your definition for an independent witness then we might as well jettison history. Take reports of war by soldiers in WW2. By your definition these reports are not historical facts because they were recorded by the participants.
Not true.

Historians don’t accept every word of every old document as being absolutely accurate.

“Works that profess to be historical are of various kinds and trustworthy in varying degrees (1) there is historical romance which in a frame work of history interweaves an invented tale.…(2) There is legend in which popular fancy working for generations has surrounded a real person and with such a mass of extraneous matter that the historical kernel is hardly discernible.”- William Mitchell Ramsay, archaeologist, historian and New Testament scholar
Jeff wrote:
There are over a dozen reports by secular writers that refer to Christ and others mentioned in the NT. Even the Jews in some of their writings recognize that Jesus did works of wonder though that attribute it to sorcery.
There are no non-Christian contemporary accounts of the resurrection of Jesus.

Tacitus (AD 56 – AD 117) is often cited as an “independent corroborating source”. He was not yet born while Jesus was alive. He could not have been an eyewitness or "corroborating source” to anything about the life of Jesus, and he referred to Christianity as “a most mischievous superstition”.
Jeff wrote:
We do know who wrote the gospels. The church has always had the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to gospels.
Not true!

“Strictly speaking, each gospel (and Acts) is anonymous.”- Stephen L. Harris .Professor Emeritus of Humanities and Religious Studies at California State University, MA and PhD degrees from Cornell University, member of the American Academy of Religion
Jeff wrote:
Just because the the imagery in the NDE experiences varies within cultures does not mean that there is no survival of a person's soul in a NDE.
The fact that there are individual differences based on cultural differences in NDE experiences means that they are entirely subjective.

“…the NDE could just as easily have occurred before or after any state resembling brain death. There is no way to verify the timing of memory formation relative to brain scans when the patient is not conscious.”– D. Mobbs PhD Neuroscience, C. Watt PhD Psychology, Trends In Cognitive Science (2011)
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#108 Mar 23, 2013
cvor wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't find credibility to your post at all. You certainly have not established the bible as a valid document. You didn't even mention the writers!!!! A secular historian would give at least some credibility. You mention that historians didn't find Jesus important...well that says something.....if he was REALLY doing miracles and rising from the dead they would have...lol. But alas....he wasn't and didn't and as a result no one bothered.
An actual person that we know something about would help...as would interviews corroborating the information. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.....and at this point all you have done is utilized the bible to assert the extraordinary claim....as a result you have 0 evidence of something that has no proof of being POSSIBLE.
All you have are anonymous stories about things that to this very day have no proof of even being possible....and all you point to are anonymous writers that were picked out by a bunch of religious people! LOL
Please. Do you believe Zeus stories ---- how about Aquaman? You have not differentiated your religious stories from them.
Science isn't everything......but when we are talking about history and analyzing it....it comes in pretty handy. You have essentially ignored science and analysis...because it in no way shape or form upholds that anyone is a god let alone the god from your missing documents from anonymous religious writers.
Were you indoctrinated with this religion as a child?
There are many known authors of the books of the Bible. Daniel wrote Daniel, Isaiah wrote Isaiah, Paul wrote Romans and John wrote the gospel of John to name a few.

You need to be careful to read modern ideas into the ancient past. Its not like they had countless reporters around to record things. Same goes for historians. There were not a lot of them either. The fact that we have 4 separate accounts of the life of Christ makes Him one of the best attested historical figures of the ancient past.

As for your comment-"An actual person that we know something about would help...as would interviews corroborating the information." we already have that with the gospels. We know all 4 of them existed and we know them to be the authors of the gospels. We know Jesus had brothers. We know some of His enemies.

The NT is one of the best attested historical documents in history.

Lets deal with your slogan-"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". What is specifically "extraordinary evidence"? What are the characteristics of it and what authority says this? I want to make sure I know exact what this is before we even know it exist.

Yes I was indoctrinated with Christianity as a child. I now know it to be true.

What were you indoctrinated with as a child?

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Christian Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Born in Spirit, Perfection, Sanctification, Sin... 1 min cgaviria 2
Dead Sea Scrolls Fail To Mention Jesus 8 min Blodewedd 8
Lack Of Evidence For Satan And Demons 10 min Atheistgirl 59
Why the Earth Was Created in Six Days 11 min cgaviria 2
God Has Preordained All Things 12 min cgaviria 2
Destruction of the Vatican - One of the Last Si... 15 min cgaviria 2
Proof that Christianity is a lie 35 min Blodewedd 130
News Religion, higher education and critical thinking (Aug '15) 5 hr ROG 9,188
Scientific Proof Of GOD(for dummies) 10 hr backlagoon 1,783
More from around the web