Why are you looking forward to heaven?
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#61 Mar 22, 2013
cvor wrote:
<quoted text>
I have not seen any evidence that there is any spiritual related source. There is a lot we don't know however there is no evidence of a hidden realm. I certainly acknowledge the uniqueness of individuals - and all living things. Evidence suggests that the source of our desires relates to our primary directives and purposes ---- to sustain our lives and procreate.
What do you think near death experiences? If you read some of the stories of them they certainly point to some kind of immaterial survival of people that is not dependent on a physical body.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#62 Mar 22, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
It's all subjective. There is no objective evidence of an an afterlife.
NDEs appear to contain highly subjective elements specific to each individual's cultural background, predispositions, etc. some people meet with Jesus, others see Mohammed, others see Vishnu, etc. All of that is entirely subjective.
The Bible is not objective evidence any more than the Koran is.
“I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious theories of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God”- Thomas Alva Edison
The resurrection of Christ was not a subjective experience in the sense it was made up. Jesus died on a Friday and was seen alive again on Sunday and over the course of several weeks by over 500 people in various circumstances. Many people went to their deaths over this.

The aspect of NDE's that is relevant for our discussion is that some who have had the NDE were able to explain things in detail while they were unconscious and could not have known. This clearly points to the idea that there is some kind of immaterial soul-spirit of man that is not limited to a physical body.

The Bible is a record of God's dealings in this world. Its like a history book. A history book is not evidence for a historical event but a record of it. The Bible is like this.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#63 Mar 22, 2013
cvor wrote:
<quoted text>
Where is the evidence that the bible story of the resurrection is accurate?
In the eyewitness accounts. One of the best descriptions is found in I Corinthians 15:1-8.

NDanger

“Third Eye”

Since: Nov 10

You can't get there from here.

#64 Mar 22, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
The resurrection of Christ was not a subjective experience in the sense it was made up. Jesus died on a Friday and was seen alive again on Sunday and over the course of several weeks by over 500 people in various circumstances. Many people went to their deaths over this.
The aspect of NDE's that is relevant for our discussion is that some who have had the NDE were able to explain things in detail while they were unconscious and could not have known. This clearly points to the idea that there is some kind of immaterial soul-spirit of man that is not limited to a physical body.
The Bible is a record of God's dealings in this world. Its like a history book. A history book is not evidence for a historical event but a record of it. The Bible is like this.
There's a lot of 'ives' being flung around...
Jeff

Curitiba, Brazil

#65 Mar 22, 2013
Leviticus, Chapter 5
001: And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.
002: Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.
003: Or if he touch the uncleanness of man, whatsoever uncleanness it be that a man shall be defiled withal, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty.
004: Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of these.
005: And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing:
006: And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.
007: And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering.
008: And he shall bring them unto the priest, who shall offer that which is for the sin offering first, and wring off his head from his neck, but shall not divide it asunder:
009: And he shall sprinkle of the blood of the sin offering upon the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be wrung out at the bottom of the altar: it is a sin offering.
010: And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.
011: But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering.
012: Then shall he bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, even a memorial thereof, and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: it is a sin offering.
013: And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.
014: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
015: If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering:
016: And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.
017: And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.
018: And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.
019: It is a trespass offering: he hath certainly trespassed against the LORD.

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#66 Mar 22, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree death is hard on all of us. I do think that Christians have hope in death because Christ died and rose again. His resurrection showed that the death is not the end for us. If what Jesus did and taught is true then death is not the end. Now I know you cannot accept this because of your extreme skepticism but you should consider that there has to be something to this given that its been believed for over 2000 years by millions of people and by some of the most intelligent people who have ever lived. Many over the centuries have tried to disprove it but have failed. You don't have to accept death as the end.
Thanks....I feel my skepticism is warranted as you are asserting a very serious claim from a set of writings that has no evidence. I feel not much skepticism is required...just not being gullibme. Many have tried to prove it using fallacies and asserting the claim as the evidence bjt failed. Disproving things is irrelevant and meaningless as you can't disprive 32nd dimensional fairies. In the year 5000 they won't be able to. Hardly something to tout.

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#67 Mar 22, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
What do you think near death experiences? If you read some of the stories of them they certainly point to some kind of immaterial survival of people that is not dependent on a physical body.
Science has already explained it. The brain goes through a process when being shut down

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#68 Mar 22, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
In the eyewitness accounts. One of the best descriptions is found in I Corinthians 15:1-8.
My question was why is the bible accurate....you just told me because the bible says so.

Why do u believe the bible is accurate?

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#69 Mar 22, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
The resurrection of Christ was not a subjective experience in the sense it was made up. Jesus died on a Friday and was seen alive again on Sunday and over the course of several weeks by over 500 people in various circumstances. Many people went to their deaths over this.
The aspect of NDE's that is relevant for our discussion is that some who have had the NDE were able to explain things in detail while they were unconscious and could not have known. This clearly points to the idea that there is some kind of immaterial soul-spirit of man that is not limited to a physical body.
The Bible is a record of God's dealings in this world. Its like a history book. A history book is not evidence for a historical event but a record of it. The Bible is like this.
Can you prove the bible account is correct? If not...why do u believe it?
John from Texas

Tver, Russia

#70 Mar 22, 2013
I do not give heaven any thought time unless it comes up on here. That is in the future, and I will not lose sight of today looking to the future.

What I look forward to are simple things. Doing my best for others and my family as many days of the week as I can. Seeing my hubby's joy over fresh flowers on the table. Seeing my child smile at a sunrise. Rubbing under my dogs chins and bellies. Watching my sprouts in the garden grow.

If I take care of every day to the best of my ability, I do not need to spend time thinking about Heaven.

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#71 Mar 22, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
The resurrection of Christ was not a subjective experience in the sense it was made up. Jesus died on a Friday and was seen alive again on Sunday and over the course of several weeks by over 500 people in various circumstances. Many people went to their deaths over this.
The aspect of NDE's that is relevant for our discussion is that some who have had the NDE were able to explain things in detail while they were unconscious and could not have known. This clearly points to the idea that there is some kind of immaterial soul-spirit of man that is not limited to a physical body.
The Bible is a record of God's dealings in this world. Its like a history book. A history book is not evidence for a historical event but a record of it. The Bible is like this.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-m...

Do u have any scientific proof of a spirit world?
reality

Tver, Russia

#72 Mar 22, 2013
And you won't get any answer/description of Heaven from the Christians. At least not based upon anything from their book of lies. As a description of Heaven is one of the things I have challenged the Christians to find in their book of lies for a few years now. And NONE have found anything of merit. Most just obfuscate, lie, or run away from the challenge.

But as a non-Christian, with a unique spiritual life, I like how it feels to be in a pure soul state in Heaven/God. I do not like the maintenance and limitations of being tied down to my physical body. The only thing I like about it is the depth and more solid feelings one gets from experiencing things. But I like more the vividness, clarity, and energized feeling I get when in a pure soul state in Heaven. And am able to do, see, and experience things without the limited physical senses. To be able to travel by thought, have all my questions answered by simultaneous experience(s), imparted information, and even any peripheral information required to give me a complete understanding of what I need to know.

And Heaven/God will be a mystery that will take an eternity to fully understand, To learn about all the spiritual entities, deities, aiding in the expansion/creating of the physical universe, everyone's role and interaction in doing their part in God's plan for all souls, and the purpose of it all.

But here's a thumbnail version.

God is the vast and all powerful soul, spiritual energy Deity who creates, maintains, and controls the universe. God IS the living universe, and the universe IS the living God. God as a spiritual Deity has always existed through out all eternity. He created the physical universe within the spiritual universe/himself/God. Both are side by side, but separate, yet both of God, are God. For God IS the living universe, and the universe IS the living God.

And so the spiritual universe, is God's soul, God, but also what the Christians think this "Heaven" is. And our souls are created in the likeness of God's soul, himself. Diminutive versions of God's soul's energies and abilities, that grow over time. Existing as free willed points of self aware consciousness within God/Heaven.

And one of the very first things I noticed about being in a pure soul state, is that my thinking no longer seemed orientated in where my head would be, but strongest in the center of my soul. Which corresponds to God/Heaven, as when in the farther reaches from the center, the energy is more coarser and things have less control. And the energy is higher and things are more controlled as one moves toward the center. It is also where the more advanced souls, Deities, are allowed to do their duties in God's plan.
Big Al

Grand Rapids, MN

#73 Mar 22, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
The resurrection of Christ was not a subjective experience in the sense it was made up. Jesus died on a Friday and was seen alive again on Sunday and over the course of several weeks by over 500 people in various circumstances. Many people went to their deaths over this.
The aspect of NDE's that is relevant for our discussion is that some who have had the NDE were able to explain things in detail while they were unconscious and could not have known. This clearly points to the idea that there is some kind of immaterial soul-spirit of man that is not limited to a physical body.
The Bible is a record of God's dealings in this world. Its like a history book. A history book is not evidence for a historical event but a record of it. The Bible is like this.
You don’t understand the difference between objective and subjective. The resurrection of Jesus cannot be considered a historical fact because it was not recorded by any independent source. None of the non-Christian sources that refer to Jesus or Christianity corroborate the resurrection.

The gospels themselves, aside from not being independent sources, cannot be considered eyewitness accounts because no one knows who wrote them. They were all unsigned. The names of the authors were added at a much later date.

"They [the gospels] appeared anonymously. The titles placed above them in our Bibles owe their origin to a later ecclesiastical tradition which deserves no confidence whatever" - Rev. Dr. Hooykaas

NDE’s are subjective accounts of subjective experiences.

“The NDE is often cited as evidence for the existence of the human soul and afterlife. However, the imagery in the experiences varies within cultures.”- Dorothy E. Counts, Ph.D., Professor of Anthropology University of Waterloo
Abishai100

Ukraine

#74 Mar 22, 2013
When things are not going well:

First, I analyze the situation to find out what *I* can do better/different. Then I do everything in my power to improve the situation.

Then, I pray for God's will to be done (Lord's prayer), and for everyone involved to be strengthened to accept God's will.

When someone is on death's door if they are a Christian: I try to comfort them in anyway I can and I pray for God's will to be done (Lord's prayer), and for everyone involved to be strengthened to accept God's will.

When someone is on death's door if they are not a Christian, but have heard the gospel and do not wish to hear it any more: I try to comfort them in any way I can, I pray for God's will to be done (Lord's prayer), and for everyone involved to be strengthened to accept God's will.

When someone is on death's door if they are not a Christian, but have NOT heard the gospel: I try to comfort them in any way I can. I also share the gospel as Biblically permitted and my testimony with them, AND I pray for God's will to be done (Lord's prayer), and for everyone involved to be strengthened to accept God's will.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#75 Mar 22, 2013
cvor wrote:
<quoted text>
Science has already explained it. The brain goes through a process when being shut down
The brain is shutting down. The problem is that how do we explain how a person who is in a NDE state know what is going on miles away? There have been a number of cases like this that cannot be explained by the brain shutting down.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#76 Mar 22, 2013
cvor wrote:
<quoted text>
http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-m...
Do u have any scientific proof of a spirit world?
Depends what you mean by "spirit world". The universe is far more mysterious than we can imagine. I think that the NDE's are evidence we are more than our physical bodies.

It is not inconceivable that reality is composed of different dimensions.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#77 Mar 22, 2013
cvor wrote:
<quoted text>
My question was why is the bible accurate....you just told me because the bible says so.
Why do u believe the bible is accurate?
We know the Bible is accurate in some of the events and people that it has mentioned by secular historians and archaeologists. I think its also accurate in explaining why the world is messed up. I also find it to be true when I apply its teachings to my life and I have also had specific prayers answered that goes beyond coincidence.

Have you ever been to an Easter service at a church?
Big Al

Januária, Brazil

#78 Mar 22, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
We know the Bible is accurate in some of the events and people that it has mentioned by secular historians and archaeologists. I think its also accurate in explaining why the world is messed up. I also find it to be true when I apply its teachings to my life and I have also had specific prayers answered that goes beyond coincidence.
Have you ever been to an Easter service at a church?
The first week we attended and no offering was taken during the service, I asked someone where to put my offering, and they pointed out the boxes in the back of the room. That's how we know... we ask and are told. They have recently begun putting a one-sentence notice in the weekly church bulletin so newcomers will know where to put an offering, should they choose to give. Now, stop being an annoying pest!
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#79 Mar 22, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
You don’t understand the difference between objective and subjective. The resurrection of Jesus cannot be considered a historical fact because it was not recorded by any independent source. None of the non-Christian sources that refer to Jesus or Christianity corroborate the resurrection.
The gospels themselves, aside from not being independent sources, cannot be considered eyewitness accounts because no one knows who wrote them. They were all unsigned. The names of the authors were added at a much later date.
"They [the gospels] appeared anonymously. The titles placed above them in our Bibles owe their origin to a later ecclesiastical tradition which deserves no confidence whatever" - Rev. Dr. Hooykaas
NDE’s are subjective accounts of subjective experiences.
“The NDE is often cited as evidence for the existence of the human soul and afterlife. However, the imagery in the experiences varies within cultures.”- Dorothy E. Counts, Ph.D., Professor of Anthropology University of Waterloo
What are the qualifications of an independent witness? If we go by your definition for an independent witness then we might as well jettison history. Take reports of war by soldiers in WW2. By your definition these reports are not historical facts because they were recorded by the participants.

There are over a dozen reports by secular writers that refer to Christ and others mentioned in the NT. Even the Jews in some of their writings recognize that Jesus did works of wonder though that attribute it to sorcery.

We do know who wrote the gospels. The church has always had the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to gospels.

Just because the the imagery in the NDE experiences varies within cultures does not mean that there is no survival of a person's soul in a NDE.

NDanger

“Third Eye”

Since: Nov 10

You can't get there from here.

#80 Mar 22, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
What are the qualifications of an independent witness? If we go by your definition for an independent witness then we might as well jettison history. Take reports of war by soldiers in WW2. By your definition these reports are not historical facts because they were recorded by the participants.
There are over a dozen reports by secular writers that refer to Christ and others mentioned in the NT. Even the Jews in some of their writings recognize that Jesus did works of wonder though that attribute it to sorcery.
We do know who wrote the gospels. The church has always had the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John to gospels.
Just because the the imagery in the NDE experiences varies within cultures does not mean that there is no survival of a person's soul in a NDE.
Ya just can't have anyone running around knees bent writing about stuff...no one is 'credible' unless they deem it so...

this way they can worm, squirm and deflect their way around anything...

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