Why are you looking forward to heaven?
Flygerian

United States

#362 Mar 30, 2013
janeebee wrote:
<quoted text>
One's own ACUAL proof of God CAN'T be shown to others - it's WITHIN!
I agree. But maybe you could answer why Seentheotherside runs around here claiming that everyone elses god is fake/demonic? And then asks for proof of their god? But when it happens to himself (who claims to have see his god) its a problem?

John from Texas

“It's all in your head”

Since: Dec 12

Buda, TX

#363 Mar 30, 2013
Why should one look forward heaven? It' right there. It's here and now. It's all around for the taking. One does not need to be dead to experience heaven. If one is waiting to die to get to heaven, one is wasting their life away.
Cisco Kid

Sonora, CA

#364 Mar 30, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Just because you have no facts to back up your claims does not mean I don't.

I'm still waiting for proof of your god.
Don't hold your breath.
Seen is a shill, a cut-out. She works for Topix trying to keep people posting so they satisfy their advertisers with traffic count.

Seen is a hollow paper tiger, the shallowness will amaze you.
Cisco Kid

Sonora, CA

#365 Mar 30, 2013
TheWingsOfWisdom wrote:
<quoted text>Your retardation does make me look dumb.
There's really nobody required to make You look Dumb.
You do Okay on your own.
Big Al

Grand Rapids, MN

#366 Mar 31, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
You already have reliable sources to this via the gospels and I Cor 15. You also have the foundation of the church. The church has never existed without the resurrection.
Have you read the " Testimony of the Evangelist" by Simon Greenleaf? "Greenleaf, one of the principle founders of the Harvard Law School, originally set out to disprove the biblical testimony concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He was certain that a careful examination of the internal witness of the Gospels would dispel all the myths at the heart of Christianity. But this legal scholar came to the conclusion that the witnesses were reliable, and that the resurrection did in fact happen." You can find it here: http://www.bibleteacher.org/sgtestimony.htm
You should follow his example.
Only believers consider their holy books to be reliable sources.

“…there is historical romance which in a frame work of history interweaves an invented tale.”- Sir William Mitchell Ramsay

"Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.'- Thomas Paine
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#367 Mar 31, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
Only believers consider their holy books to be reliable sources.
“…there is historical romance which in a frame work of history interweaves an invented tale.”- Sir William Mitchell Ramsay
"Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.'- Thomas Paine
I don't know if "Only believers consider their holy books to be reliable sources." The fact of the matter is that it has not been disproven and the gospels give us more details about the life of Christ than any other individual in ancient history. If the gospels are rejected as being reliable then all of ancient history must be rejected also.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#368 Mar 31, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
Only believers consider their holy books to be reliable sources.
“…there is historical romance which in a frame work of history interweaves an invented tale.”- Sir William Mitchell Ramsay
"Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.'- Thomas Paine
How could an intellect such as Simon Greenleaf who was one of the principle founders of the Harvard Law School and unbeliever at the time, investigate the gospels to prove them false come back a believer? How could a man with his great intellect and with the intention of disproving the Bible be convinced that the gospels are true?
Big Al

Grand Rapids, MN

#369 Mar 31, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know if "Only believers consider their holy books to be reliable sources." The fact of the matter is that it has not been disproven and the gospels give us more details about the life of Christ than any other individual in ancient history. If the gospels are rejected as being reliable then all of ancient history must be rejected also.
Your continual demand to "disprove" the claims of the Bible is illogical.

“When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim. If this responsibility or burden of proof is shifted to a critic, the fallacy of appealing to ignorance is committed".– Alex Michalos, Principles of Logic
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#370 Mar 31, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
Your continual demand to "disprove" the claims of the Bible is illogical.
“When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim. If this responsibility or burden of proof is shifted to a critic, the fallacy of appealing to ignorance is committed".– Alex Michalos, Principles of Logic
There is massive amounts of support from history and archaeology that support the gospels and Acts for example.

The Dead Sea Scrolls which includes two copies (dated 125-100 BC) of the book of Isaiah, proved to be word for word identical to our modern day copy in more than 95% of the text, with the roughly 5% differences consisting of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling that in no way compromised the meaning.
Big Al

Grand Rapids, MN

#371 Mar 31, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
How could an intellect such as Simon Greenleaf who was one of the principle founders of the Harvard Law School and unbeliever at the time, investigate the gospels to prove them false come back a believer? How could a man with his great intellect and with the intention of disproving the Bible be convinced that the gospels are true?
Simon Greenleaf was unable to put aside his preconceived biases.

“It is not true, however, that Greenleaf set out to disprove the biblical testimony concerning the resurrection of Jesus or that he was challenged by students to explore the historicity of the Gospel narratives regarding Jesus' death and resurrection. In fact, Greenleaf was a lifelong Episcopalian, an Evangelical Episcopalian in the 19th century meaning of that term, who always was very involved in the life of his church and his diocese. He was active in the Massachusetts Bible Society; he wrote tracts for the American Tract Society; he was active in promoting theological education in the West (i.e., beyond the Appalachians); he drew up constitutions and bylaws for these schools; he was a leading force in the American Colonization Society, which was committed to repatriating American Blacks to Liberia as a way to "solve" the slavery problem.”- Dr. William Long, Ph. D., J. D.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#372 Mar 31, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
Simon Greenleaf was unable to put aside his preconceived biases.
“It is not true, however, that Greenleaf set out to disprove the biblical testimony concerning the resurrection of Jesus or that he was challenged by students to explore the historicity of the Gospel narratives regarding Jesus' death and resurrection. In fact, Greenleaf was a lifelong Episcopalian, an Evangelical Episcopalian in the 19th century meaning of that term, who always was very involved in the life of his church and his diocese. He was active in the Massachusetts Bible Society; he wrote tracts for the American Tract Society; he was active in promoting theological education in the West (i.e., beyond the Appalachians); he drew up constitutions and bylaws for these schools; he was a leading force in the American Colonization Society, which was committed to repatriating American Blacks to Liberia as a way to "solve" the slavery problem.”- Dr. William Long, Ph. D., J. D.
Just because you can't put preconceived biases aside and look at the evidence objectively does not mean Greenleaf was not able to. Remember, he examined the gospel accounts of the resurrection by the rules of evidence used in a court of law and found them to be trustworthy and true.
Big Al

Grand Rapids, MN

#373 Mar 31, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Just because you can't put preconceived biases aside and look at the evidence objectively does not mean Greenleaf was not able to. Remember, he examined the gospel accounts of the resurrection by the rules of evidence used in a court of law and found them to be trustworthy and true.
Since he examined the gospel accounts through the fog of his preconceived biases he was unable to see the evidence objectively. Many other jurists and people familiar with the legal rules of evidence disagree with Mr. Greenleaf.

“Can any rational person believe that the Bible is anything but a human document? We now know pretty well where the various books came from… We know that they were written by human beings who had no knowledge of science, little knowledge of life, and were influenced by the barbarous morality of primitive times, and were grossly ignorant of most things that men know today.”- Clarence Darrow, one of the most famous American lawyers and civil libertarian

“Men may believe what they cannot prove.”- William Orville Douglas, the longest-serving justice in the history of the Supreme Court.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#374 Mar 31, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
Since he examined the gospel accounts through the fog of his preconceived biases he was unable to see the evidence objectively. Many other jurists and people familiar with the legal rules of evidence disagree with Mr. Greenleaf.
“Can any rational person believe that the Bible is anything but a human document? We now know pretty well where the various books came from… We know that they were written by human beings who had no knowledge of science, little knowledge of life, and were influenced by the barbarous morality of primitive times, and were grossly ignorant of most things that men know today.”- Clarence Darrow, one of the most famous American lawyers and civil libertarian
“Men may believe what they cannot prove.”- William Orville Douglas, the longest-serving justice in the history of the Supreme Court.
I can think of many others who have examined the evidence on the resurrection and found it to be true. What other people do you know who have used the rules of evidence that are used in a court of law that have arrived at a different conclusion than Greenleaf?

I think it is you who is in a "fog of preconceived biases and unable to see the evidence objectively." You never present any counter facts but just your biased opinions.
JPZ

Greer, SC

#375 Mar 31, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
I can think of many others who have examined the evidence on the resurrection and found it to be true. What other people do you know who have used the rules of evidence that are used in a court of law that have arrived at a different conclusion than Greenleaf?
I think it is you who is in a "fog of preconceived biases and unable to see the evidence objectively." You never present any counter facts but just your biased opinions.
You have got to be joking right? Maybe you should take the "Easter Challenge" by Dan Barker

Every Christian has failed this challenge since it was issued 23? Years ago. Do you have what it takes?

Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist, by Dan Barker
Chapter 24
http://ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/stone.php

Since: Dec 09

Chicago, IL

#376 Mar 31, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
You already have reliable sources to this via the gospels and I Cor 15. You also have the foundation of the church. The church has never existed without the resurrection.
Have you read the " Testimony of the Evangelist" by Simon Greenleaf? "Greenleaf, one of the principle founders of the Harvard Law School, originally set out to disprove the biblical testimony concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He was certain that a careful examination of the internal witness of the Gospels would dispel all the myths at the heart of Christianity. But this legal scholar came to the conclusion that the witnesses were reliable, and that the resurrection did in fact happen." You can find it here: http://www.bibleteacher.org/sgtestimony.htm
You should follow his example.
The accounts in the New Testament are documenting a work of Divine Performance Art of infinite proportions.
Jesus's Life, Death, and Resurrection were INTENDED TO DEMONSTRATE the Truth His Teachings conveyed.
ie.,....DEATH IS NOT THE END OF US.
WE DO NOT CEASE TO EXIST when our physical bodies die and our life ends!
THIS is what Greenleaf must've realized examining the "Gospel accounts" - The Truth Christ meant His Resurrection to manifest!
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#377 Mar 31, 2013
JPZ wrote:
<quoted text> You have got to be joking right? Maybe you should take the "Easter Challenge" by Dan Barker
Every Christian has failed this challenge since it was issued 23? Years ago. Do you have what it takes?
Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist, by Dan Barker
Chapter 24
http://ffrf.org/legacy/books/lfif/stone.php
Get serious. The resurrection has survived 2000 years of scrutiny and there is no reason to think Dan has refuted it.
Phoenix

Houston, TX

#378 Mar 31, 2013
cvor wrote:
Christians desire so much to go to this heaven. I never hear them tell me about this thing they look forward to. They have made it their purpose in life to get there yet they rarely describe what it is like or why they want to go there and why they desperately want to go there. The bible doesn't describe it that much either.

So why are people so obsessed with going there?

It seems that the mental conditioning is so effective that a proper description isn't even needed. They have people desperate to get to a place they don't know about.

So we already saw that jesus is not proven to claim to be a god..as evidenced by various interpreations that can reasonably made...noteably by the jewish and muslim religions and thousands of christian sects rhat can't agree what the bible means. Yet they proclaim a guy that didn't say he was a god is a god.

We already know that to come to believe the bible to begin with..regardless of which interpretation....requires blind faith in unknown authors where we have no original document and where the story arcs resemble prior myths.

And now...the end goal of heaven.......a place left mostly to your imagination with the understanding that it is nice there.

Is it just me?
I look forward to seeing God in all His glory and power and might.
Cisco Kid

Modesto, CA

#379 Mar 31, 2013
janeebee wrote:
<quoted text>
The accounts in the New Testament are documenting a work of Divine Performance Art of infinite proportions.
Jesus's Life, Death, and Resurrection were INTENDED TO DEMONSTRATE the Truth His Teachings conveyed.
ie.,....DEATH IS NOT THE END OF US.
WE DO NOT CEASE TO EXIST when our physical bodies die and our life ends!
THIS is what Greenleaf must've realized examining the "Gospel accounts" - The Truth Christ meant His Resurrection to manifest!
Well said, janeebee.

"While our sins would have made it impossible for us to share in the life of God, Jesus Christ was sent to remove this obstacle. His death was a sacrifice for our sins.

Christ is "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" (Jn 1:29).
Through his death and resurrection, he conquered sin and death and reconciled us to God."

http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/resou...

He is risen. Alleluia, Alleluia.
Big Al

Grand Rapids, MN

#380 Apr 1, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
I can think of many others who have examined the evidence on the resurrection and found it to be true. What other people do you know who have used the rules of evidence that are used in a court of law that have arrived at a different conclusion than Greenleaf?
I think it is you who is in a "fog of preconceived biases and unable to see the evidence objectively." You never present any counter facts but just your biased opinions.
“Greenleaf also says,‘The fact [of Christian revelation] will here be assumed as true...’ and then devotes over a thousand words to a defense of that assumption.’ It doesn’t take a law degree to know that there is no legal principle affirming the truth of Christianity’s claim to be a divine revelation.”- Doug Shaver, journalist, BA in sociology, former Christian Fundamentalist
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#381 Apr 1, 2013
I didn't see any thing in the article that said-"..there is no legal principle affirming the truth of Christianity’s claim to be a divine revelation.” What I did find is:
"There should be a readiness, on our part, to investigate with candor to follow the truth wherever it may lead us, and to submit, without reserve or objection, to all the teachings of this religion, if it be found to be of divine origin."

As for "The fact [of Christian revelation] will here be assumed as true.." I did not see this in the article either. What I did find was this:
"As for "In trials of fact, by oral testimony, the proper inquiry is not whether is it possible that the testimony may be false, but whether there is sufficient probability that it is true."
This is a sound principle to work with. Agreed?

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