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Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

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#50
Jun 13, 2013
 

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Sceptical_Mal wrote:
<quoted text>
Well the title does say provide proof God does not exist then you provide other questions to answer.
Proof of non existence is not required, it is already evident by all the suffering in the world.
The unanswered prayers
The pedophile priests
The murdering rapists
The child abusers
The discrimination
The list is too long.....
Sorry that is not proof that God does not exist. Its proof that evil exists. As far as the bottom 4 of your "proof".

As for unanswered prayers again that is not proof of anything. Do you actually expect God to answer every prayer to your or mine liking? I dont. I understand that some of my prayers will get a no, or a delayed answer. Thenothers will get a yes. Not verbal of course but its happened in my life let aloneothers

So now we're about 46 posts in and still no one has provided anything or any reasonings as to why they say God does not exist.
Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

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#51
Jun 13, 2013
 

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JJJ wrote:
How you doing Fly? I hope well... first off remember when I use the word enlightened in connection with Jesus I'm using it relatively speaking just comparing his views to the religious leaders of his times...
I mean he still lived in ignorant times relatively speaking...
But at a time when the Pharisees and other Jews were not only prepared to but sanctioned by the law to stone people to death for said sins of a certain type
And Jesus said.... "Let he who is without sin cast first stone"... relatively speaking I call his outlook most certainly enlightened....
Now as far as the forgiveness of sins thing.... I'm not sure what you believe are you Jewish or belong to some other OT sect?
It's okay with me what ever floats your boat as long as you don't harm or even preach harm to others...
So as to your question 'Did God or Jesus say that the only way God would/could forgive men is if someone died for their sins?'
I can't give you a definitive answer cos I don't believe in either of them at least not in the biblical sense. If Jesus really lived then he was just a man.... by most accounts and again relatively speaking in comparison with what was on offer back then.....
A pretty laid back guy.
I also know that way before the bible just about every culture in history has a story about a saviour dying for mankind.... the Jews have the messiah, the Persians had Mithras, the Christians believe that Jesus fit the prophecy Isaiah uttered about the messiah dying for our sins...etc, etc
I mean the Egyptian had Horus I think it was and there is even stuff written about him walking on water, having 12 disciples and so on..
My friend that has just finished a book I have mentioned, he is a Christian and so he believes that the devil made up all these other stories as counterfeits to confuse us but then I'm thinking don't you have the counterfeit after the original and not the other way around?
At least he is honest enough to acknowledge all of it.
But back to your question... I don't know, I only know what I was raised on and what Christians today believe in.....that we need the ransom sacrifice for forgiveness of sins....
if you don't believe that then obviously my discussion has no relevance to you and if this is the case I fail to understand why you continue to wish to debate with me on it....
I mean I'm flattered and all but it makes no sense
But if you are an OT guy... hell we can leave sin and human sacrifice out of the discussion all together and stick to talking about the genocide and other war crimes the OT god is responsible for...
Eithr way I wont have much time. I'm an accountant with my own very small practice and I only ever post at work and July 1 our tax season begins and when that happens I don't have time to post...
To be truthful I've got heaps to do even before then but I can't help myself...
I love thinking about the big question... eternity what is it, etc.... and of course I can se that religion was primitive man's attempt to understand it but to be stuck back in the ideas of men limited to the knowledge that existed a couple of thousand years ago......
madness.
1. This is the same Jesus that preached eternal damnation right? lol. Were the pharisees teaching that?

2. I asked you about God/Jesus saying human sacrifice because thats what matters right? I mean if neither of them said such a thing or even suggested it, how can we get that belief? Oh yea from Paul maybe. But Jesus said to beware of false prophets/teachers right? My point being, Jesus NEVER said he died or would die for the sins of others. Nor did the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob say anything about sending His son to do the same. All made up by men

3. It wasnt a debate. I just came and asked you questions based on what you stated and obviously you didnt have an answer. You didnt have an answer as to where Jesus said anything of human sacrifice. Or God. So why should anyone believe you or your operative on God demanding sacrifice
Ant

Palo Alto, CA

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#52
Jun 13, 2013
 

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Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry that is not proof that God does not exist. Its proof that evil exists. As far as the bottom 4 of your "proof".
As for unanswered prayers again that is not proof of anything. Do you actually expect God to answer every prayer to your or mine liking? I dont. I understand that some of my prayers will get a no, or a delayed answer. Thenothers will get a yes. Not verbal of course but its happened in my life let aloneothers
So now we're about 46 posts in and still no one has provided anything or any reasonings as to why they say God does not exist.
Because they have no faith!! Why would one spend your time arguing about something you don't think exists so passionately, unless its something in the back of their mind they are always fighting.

I don't believe in ghost, but i wont waste my time trying to convince you why ghost don't exist.

No one can answer how we got here and who created the entire universe. But to say no one created any of this and we all just exist for no reason is ridiculous.
Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

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#53
Jun 13, 2013
 

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JJJ wrote:
Now look what you made me do... I raved on that much that you won't probably won't read more than one line anyway...
Keep well Fly perhaps I should say Shalom... I'd rather say Namaste.
Im doing well hope you are too JJJ. Well my point in asking those questions was to see where God (as you put it) demanded or expected human sacrifice. Obviously there is no answer to be found in the bible that shows such. So then I asked Jesus as well. Again, there is no answer. So why should I believe that HE demands human sacrifice? Im not sure thats why I asked you.

Sorry I do preach harm to others lol. Those that oppress kill,steal, rape etc... deserve harm to them. If you harm others, you deserve to be harmed lol. Pretty simple right? Treat others how you want to be treated.

Sure we could discuss the "OT war crimes" if you would like. I dont see where we would get since its doubtful that you've read the bible in full but hey lets discuss. First we can ask who decides who is innocent and guilty?
Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

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#54
Jun 13, 2013
 

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Hardie-Har-Har wrote:
<quoted text>
This thread's Q begs for basic and simple sh*it ANSs there, Fly!!
Prime Example:
Explain how your "OMNIPRESENT" god can possibly be INVISIBLE???
U'll need lots of azzwipe to clear up that simple sh*it, Flyboy!!
Hardie-Har-Har!
Thanks for calling me Fly lol. I do think I dress well though I dont know how you would know ;)Do you mind answering the proof for how God doesnt exist? I mean at least REASONABLE reasons. Not just saying "the genocide in the bible proves He doesnt exist" or "Who has seen him?" Or any of the other generic quips some atheists use.

As for your question. Where does the bible say that God is PHYSICALLY everywhere? Ready?? GO!!!!
JJJ

Sydney, Australia

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#55
Jun 13, 2013
 

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Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Im doing well hope you are too JJJ. Well my point in asking those questions was to see where God (as you put it) demanded or expected human sacrifice. Obviously there is no answer to be found in the bible that shows such. So then I asked Jesus as well. Again, there is no answer. So why should I believe that HE demands human sacrifice? Im not sure thats why I asked you.
Sorry I do preach harm to others lol. Those that oppress kill,steal, rape etc... deserve harm to them. If you harm others, you deserve to be harmed lol. Pretty simple right? Treat others how you want to be treated.
Sure we could discuss the "OT war crimes" if you would like. I dont see where we would get since its doubtful that you've read the bible in full but hey lets discuss. First we can ask who decides who is innocent and guilty?
Why do insist on accusing of me of lying.....? I have read the bible from cover to cover twice, I have studied it for near on 25 years in depth, my best friend that I spend time with every weekend is a bible historian and scholar....

Why? Because I'm a spiritual person, by that I mean I am consumed with thinking about everything, the universe, eternity etc...

I'm honest enough to admit that I don't know how it all come about and I'm intelligent enough to know that any person that claims that they do know for a fact that a 'god' exists and their only basis for doing so is a book written by other men thousands of years ago....

Is either dishonest or deluded....so if Jesus preached eternal punishment (or death) then I agree with you that he was wrong...
JJJ

Sydney, Australia

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#56
Jun 13, 2013
 

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Now you show me some honesty and tell what god you believe in?

Is YHWH, the god of the Jews? Because if it is he is most certainly on the same level of all the other gods of ignorant tribes of people that existed back then...

Blood sacrifice for starters... what's that all about? One has atone for their sins with the life of another...even if it is an animal...

The high priest sacrifices a bull for the sins of the people and then lets loos a goat to carry the sins away...

YHWH enjoys the aroma of the 'fatty pieces'...

How is any different to other tribes sacrificing animals to ensure a good crop etc.... oh that's right YHWH is real and the others are not..

And the war crimes..... The Jews back then committed the holocaust in reverse... genocide..

And yes I've heard the argument that those people were perverted, they sacrificed their own children so they deserved to die etc...

Well if this YHWH is so loving and so enlightened... why did he get Hebrew soldiers, fathers of their own children to do the deed?

I mean after all... he saw fit to send in an angel to wipe out 185,000 soldiers in one night in their sleep.....

Why did he not do the same with these people....

And you keep asking where in the bible did god ask for human sacrifice...

He asked Abraham to sacrifice his own son.... and please don't tell me you are going to excuse that insanity by telling me he sent an angel at the last minute to stop him....
Herbert Schaible

Fort Worth, TX

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#57
Jun 13, 2013
 

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Ant wrote:
Since so many atheists are on the Christian Forum than they are on their own forum and love to say our beliefs are false, please answer these questions.
Who created the universe?
Since your faith are in scientist over God...WHO created the big bang, since you believe in that?
Did dust appear out of nowhere, if there's no dirt, did a explosion happen without the of the ingredients for one?
Who created those ingredients?
Who created the earth?
Who created water, light, and animals?
The answer is quite simple that there had to be a creator of all this, so please provide proof that God doesn't exist and everything I listed just happened.
Take a science class and find out.
JJJ

Sydney, Australia

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#58
Jun 13, 2013
 

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Because that does not cut it. Imagine the same scenario today....

A man takes his son up on a hill, builds an alter and he is about to slit his son's throat...

A bystander sees it and calls the police.... just as the police get there they see Abe with knife in hand raised about to do the deed and out of the bushes steps a man,..

He whispers in Abe's ear "Stop, it's okay, no need to go through with the deed for look there's a goat you can slit it's throat instead"

So according to the principle that ALL bible believers espouse in regard to this bible account..

The police would wipe their brows and mutter "boy that was close" and drive off....

NO.... they'd arrest Abe and charge him with attempted murder, cruelty to animals and take him away in cuffs....

And then if I was Abe's solicitor, I stand up and say "my client pleads not guilty by means of insanity".

And the Judge asks "What makes you think he is insane?"

I answer "Ask him yourself judge"

The judge looks at Abe and aks.. "Well Abe, why were you going to slit your son's throat?"

Abe answers "Because god told me to"

and just to carry the line of questioning a bit further the Judge asks... "Did god say why he wanted you to do it?"

Abe answers "He wanted me to sacrifice him"

And the Judge says... "Am I to understand that you are saying that god, YHWY asked for a human sacrifice?"

And Abe answers... "Yes your honour but at the last moment an angel staid my hand and I sacrifice a goat instead"
JJJ

Sydney, Australia

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#59
Jun 13, 2013
 

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And yes I'm being facetious ....

But this is what intelligent people not only believe but see nothing wrong with it?

So Fly like I said, I don't believe in any of it, the NT or the OT.... I've read it, I've studied it I appreciate parts, I marvel at parts and I'm horrified at parts...

But if we are going to do comparisons.....

The man Jesus was a puppy dog compared to the blood thirsty war mongering god of the OT.....

And even though you believe he got it wrong....when he was preaching all the sacry stuff it was about the OT god....

Zeph 2: 1-3..Gather together, gather yourselves together,
you shameful nation,
2 before the decree takes effect
and that day passes like windblown chaff,
before the Lordís fierce anger
comes upon you,
before the day of the Lordís wrath
comes upon you.
3 Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land,
you who do what he commands.
Seek righteousness, seek humility;
perhaps you will be sheltered
on the day of the Lordís anger.

Perhaps...... maybe? Wake up Fly.... your god is a myth, and a pretty nasty one at that

“Third Eye”

Since: Nov 10

You can't get there from here.

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#61
Jun 13, 2013
 

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tickedoffchic wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't you know by now, not everyone believes in a need for a creator, especially not a "who", as in person/physical entity.
Don't you know by now that this is a Christian forum and those that are here by purpose don't care?

Since: Apr 07

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#62
Jun 13, 2013
 

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NDanger wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't you know by now that this is a Christian forum and those that are here by purpose don't care?
I'm sorry you're so fearful and defensive.
Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

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#63
Jun 13, 2013
 

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Hardie-Har-Har wrote:
<quoted text>
Are U blind or just ignorant, Fly?
I gave U indisputable proof that your Christian "omnipresent god" can't exist simply because he's invisible, and he is THUS, not present at all in the physical realm, which is an inherent part of the OMNI!... That's bona fide PROOF that your god does NOT exist!
Get with the picture you paint of your fundie god, Fly!!
Hardie-Har-Har!
I asked you where it said that He was physically present everywhere. You didnt show me lol
Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

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#64
Jun 13, 2013
 

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JJJ wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do insist on accusing of me of lying.....? I have read the bible from cover to cover twice, I have studied it for near on 25 years in depth, my best friend that I spend time with every weekend is a bible historian and scholar....
Why? Because I'm a spiritual person, by that I mean I am consumed with thinking about everything, the universe, eternity etc...
I'm honest enough to admit that I don't know how it all come about and I'm intelligent enough to know that any person that claims that they do know for a fact that a 'god' exists and their only basis for doing so is a book written by other men thousands of years ago....
Is either dishonest or deluded....so if Jesus preached eternal punishment (or death) then I agree with you that he was wrong...
If you've read the bible cover to cover, why are you telling me that the God described in it demands human sacrifice? Or better, why are you SUGGESTING He does?

If you're "consumed" with thinking about those things, does that mean you're "consumed" with finding the Creator? Or at least ATTEMPTING to?

Well the good thing about your last statement is that I've never used the bible as proof of God Almighty, the Self Existent One.
Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

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#66
Jun 13, 2013
 

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JJJ wrote:
Now you show me some honesty and tell what god you believe in?
Is YHWH, the god of the Jews? Because if it is he is most certainly on the same level of all the other gods of ignorant tribes of people that existed back then...
Blood sacrifice for starters... what's that all about? One has atone for their sins with the life of another...even if it is an animal...
The high priest sacrifices a bull for the sins of the people and then lets loos a goat to carry the sins away...
YHWH enjoys the aroma of the 'fatty pieces'...
How is any different to other tribes sacrificing animals to ensure a good crop etc.... oh that's right YHWH is real and the others are not..
And the war crimes..... The Jews back then committed the holocaust in reverse... genocide..
And yes I've heard the argument that those people were perverted, they sacrificed their own children so they deserved to die etc...
Well if this YHWH is so loving and so enlightened... why did he get Hebrew soldiers, fathers of their own children to do the deed?
I mean after all... he saw fit to send in an angel to wipe out 185,000 soldiers in one night in their sleep.....
Why did he not do the same with these people....
And you keep asking where in the bible did god ask for human sacrifice...
He asked Abraham to sacrifice his own son.... and please don't tell me you are going to excuse that insanity by telling me he sent an angel at the last minute to stop him....
One question at a time. Responding in these filled posts prolongs the convo.

1. Is YHWH the God of the Jews? He was never referred to as such. He was referred to as the God of Israel. Of course in Hebrew.

2. Well, at that time cattle was very important to their life. So sacrificing a quality bull or lamb wasnt something light. Even so it was not the ONLY way to atone for sins.

3. Why does He have to use an angel? Why does He have to use men? These are 2 questions that do not need an answer. He can choose to do it the way He chooses. Right?

4. I never said the idols of other nations did exist or didnt. What I will say is that they're not God. They're not the Uncreated Being. They're creations.
Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

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#67
Jun 13, 2013
 

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JJJ wrote:
Because that does not cut it. Imagine the same scenario today....
A man takes his son up on a hill, builds an alter and he is about to slit his son's throat...
A bystander sees it and calls the police.... just as the police get there they see Abe with knife in hand raised about to do the deed and out of the bushes steps a man,..
He whispers in Abe's ear "Stop, it's okay, no need to go through with the deed for look there's a goat you can slit it's throat instead"
So according to the principle that ALL bible believers espouse in regard to this bible account..
The police would wipe their brows and mutter "boy that was close" and drive off....
NO.... they'd arrest Abe and charge him with attempted murder, cruelty to animals and take him away in cuffs....
And then if I was Abe's solicitor, I stand up and say "my client pleads not guilty by means of insanity".
And the Judge asks "What makes you think he is insane?"
I answer "Ask him yourself judge"
The judge looks at Abe and aks.. "Well Abe, why were you going to slit your son's throat?"
Abe answers "Because god told me to"
and just to carry the line of questioning a bit further the Judge asks... "Did god say why he wanted you to do it?"
Abe answers "He wanted me to sacrifice him"
And the Judge says... "Am I to understand that you are saying that god, YHWY asked for a human sacrifice?"
And Abe answers... "Yes your honour but at the last moment an angel staid my hand and I sacrifice a goat instead"
Cute story lol. The point is it didnt happen now. It happened in the past at a certain time period. Your "what if" story is pointless to be honest
Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

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#68
Jun 13, 2013
 

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JJJ wrote:
And yes I'm being facetious ....
But this is what intelligent people not only believe but see nothing wrong with it?
So Fly like I said, I don't believe in any of it, the NT or the OT.... I've read it, I've studied it I appreciate parts, I marvel at parts and I'm horrified at parts...
But if we are going to do comparisons.....
The man Jesus was a puppy dog compared to the blood thirsty war mongering god of the OT.....
And even though you believe he got it wrong....when he was preaching all the sacry stuff it was about the OT god....
Zeph 2: 1-3..Gather together, gather yourselves together,
you shameful nation,
2 before the decree takes effect
and that day passes like windblown chaff,
before the Lordís fierce anger
comes upon you,
before the day of the Lordís wrath
comes upon you.
3 Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land,
you who do what he commands.
Seek righteousness, seek humility;
perhaps you will be sheltered
on the day of the Lordís anger.
Perhaps...... maybe? Wake up Fly.... your god is a myth, and a pretty nasty one at that
So on onehand we have the One that gave life taking it back because He didnt like the way it was being used. On the other, we have Jesus preaching eternal hell and burning for evildoers. Which one is worse again?
Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

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#69
Jun 13, 2013
 

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Hardie-Har-Har wrote:
<quoted text>
I never said the bible claimed it. I said that the Christians do!
Now go from there and either admit that your christianized biblegod is NOT "omnipresent" (being invisible!), or else the biblegod is NONEXISTENT!
this is basic and mighty simple sh*it, really there, Flybouy!!
Harr!
Lets go back to what you said:
Hardie-Har-Har wrote:
Explain how your "OMNIPRESENT" god can possibly be INVISIBLE???
If I never said that He was PHYSICALLY present everywhere and you cannot show me where the prophets do, why exactly were you asking me the question?
JJJ

Sydney, Australia

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#71
Jun 14, 2013
 

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Fly.... you still have not given me one honest answer...

Do you believe in the, any version at all, biblical god?

I need to know because you are re asking me my own questions?

Do I think this or that... I've told you a thousand times I don't believe the bible is anything other than a book....

If you agree with me then what in god's name (forgive me, it's just an expression) are we discussing?

I certainly don't believe the story about Abraham having sacrificing his son..... it's a fairy tale but are you denying that the account is not in the bible?
JJJ

Sydney, Australia

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#72
Jun 14, 2013
 

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Just give me a straight answer....

Do you believe the bible (any part or all of) is the word of god?

A simple yes or no?

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