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Job

Cupertino, CA

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#330
Jun 12, 2013
 

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Punisher wrote:
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1. whats wrong with the other creation accounts? I prefer the ones that involve animals and stuff...not a bored Super-being.
Big issue at hand for Xtian creationists, they need to first prove that the Judeo-Xtian version is the right one. That you hold it as THE one, is but an aspect of your faith, but that does not negate any other Creation story.
2. IMO its always lack of evidence and therefore proof for a creator. Faith is not a factoid, nor does it prove much...
I think all creation accounts should be evaluated, and of course common sense should never be ruled out.

I'll be the one of the first to admit, I don't think the idea of earth being supported by a giant elephant, which in turn being supported by a giant turtle is logical.

But because there are 'obvious' illogical creation account scenarios does 'not' eliminate them all by default, or guarantee a naturalist origin.

What I think seems to be the argument made by 'naturalists' lean more along the lines of alternative thinking rather than real evidence. When we see phrases like "why does something unexplainable have to be supernatural"? "Why does it always have to be a Goddidit"?

And quite frankly, I think they are valid questions. It's when they become an absolute "rule of logic" and "truth" is where I take issue.

The theme of a Creator, who works outside of natural law with the ability to create something out of nothing is not illogical. It's a concept we can't relate to very well because we don't have that ability. We can only rearrange what 'already' exists to make some sort of creation originating from our mind.

Now the idea of such a Creator may seem an easy way out, and maybe in some cases it is for one who doesn't want to think about, has no interest, etc.

So questioning the concept of a Creator with this ability is one thing, but claiming that the concept is unscientific, or even claiming that a Creator had to have used evolution is another in my opinion.
Job

Cupertino, CA

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#331
Jun 12, 2013
 
NDanger wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree as most part of the entertainment is so people can relate to, so they are portrayed to our civilized thinking. Like the last epic The Bible which was on recently...as Colbert put it, Well, okey-dokey…. A “beefy Jesus”?
Yes indeed. I think that in many cases when a person is chosen to play Jesus, they choose one who is visually appealing. The writers of the Bible appear pretty honest about who was attractive, like Abraham's wife, Joseph, etc.

Jesus is described as one who wasn't particularly noticeable as far as "physical appearance".

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#332
Jun 12, 2013
 

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HighlyEvolved wrote:
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Really? There are four seasons on the North Pole? News to me.
And for the record, moron, we have to add a day every four years because we don't orbit the sun in exactly 365 twenty-four-hour days.
waaaaaaaaaa? i did not say anything about the north pole.
i said there are 4 seasons on the planet.
and regardless adding a day every 4 yrs still balances it out as 365 ....... always.

explain to me please how you think everything,(intelligently designed ) life could originate from NON life, and yet a painting has to have a painter?

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#333
Jun 12, 2013
 

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HighlyEvolved wrote:
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Your mother's mouth is exactly the same circumference as the cable guy's pen1s. Coincidence?
this is one of many reasons why atheists are known to be immoral people. How does making vulgar statements like that help your case on here? it doesn't. it proves my on going point that anti-God people are expressions of demonic substance.

“I'll have some FSM...”

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#334
Jun 12, 2013
 

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Walterwalter wrote:
<quoted text>
waaaaaaaaaa? i did not say anything about the north pole.
i said there are 4 seasons on the planet.
and regardless adding a day every 4 yrs still balances it out as 365 ....... always.
You can add or subtrac whatever from anything and make it equal something else... I am failing to see your logic here.

You tried to make seasons sound unique to us or that we live on a privileged planet. It is simply not the case.
Walterwalter wrote:
<quoted text>
explain to me please how you think everything,(intelligently designed ) life could originate from NON life, and yet a painting has to have a painter?
Paintings are not organic.

And again you stated "(intelligently designed)" As if you know before looking at anything else to say it was intelligently designed.

We can see stars, planets and solor systems being formed now and different stages of formation. You can go to the NASA website now and look at the HUBBLE DEEP FIELD pictures.

There is nothing but nature running its course.

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#335
Jun 12, 2013
 

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10uhsee wrote:
<quoted text>
You can add or subtrac whatever from anything and make it equal something else... I am failing to see your logic here.
You tried to make seasons sound unique to us or that we live on a privileged planet. It is simply not the case.
<quoted text>
Paintings are not organic.
And again you stated "(intelligently designed)" As if you know before looking at anything else to say it was intelligently designed.
We can see stars, planets and solor systems being formed now and different stages of formation. You can go to the NASA website now and look at the HUBBLE DEEP FIELD pictures.
There is nothing but nature running its course.
did you really just say that?
i tried to make sesasons sound UNIQUE as in a privileged planet?
scooter you need to sit down and do some deep soul searching, because we are privileged. Unless you can show me another planet/earth that is unique like we are, you got zip.

if you don't acknowledge or believe in a Creator God then all i can tell you is that you are MISSING (majorily missing) the uniqueness of life.
the vast universe
the percision of our solor system
the beauty of nature, the UNIQUE DESIGN of everything.
the way it all works together to sustain this privileged life we all are so blessed to have and enjoy.

nature isn't a 'thing', but a system.
tell me how a single cell of life is generated by nature?
you can read multiple science articles to, and see how scientist MARVEL at the complexities of life in a single cell.
in order for DNA to exist which makes everything unique and maps it out in a specific direction, there HAS to be a designer.
to say otherwise is to stick your head in the sand and pretend otherwise.

you gonna tell me you have to program a computer first,
you have to paint a painting
build a building
sew a garment
but life could come into being from nothingness by accident?
you may as well try to sell the notion the moon is made of cheese.

“I'll have some FSM...”

Since: Sep 10

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#336
Jun 12, 2013
 

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Walterwalter wrote:
<quoted text>
did you really just say that?
i tried to make sesasons sound UNIQUE as in a privileged planet?
scooter you need to sit down and do some deep soul searching, because we are privileged. Unless you can show me another planet/earth that is unique like we are, you got zip.
if you don't acknowledge or believe in a Creator God then all i can tell you is that you are MISSING (majorily missing) the uniqueness of life.
the vast universe
the percision of our solor system
the beauty of nature, the UNIQUE DESIGN of everything.
the way it all works together to sustain this privileged life we all are so blessed to have and enjoy.
nature isn't a 'thing', but a system.
tell me how a single cell of life is generated by nature?
you can read multiple science articles to, and see how scientist MARVEL at the complexities of life in a single cell.
in order for DNA to exist which makes everything unique and maps it out in a specific direction, there HAS to be a designer.
to say otherwise is to stick your head in the sand and pretend otherwise.
you gonna tell me you have to program a computer first,
you have to paint a painting
build a building
sew a garment
but life could come into being from nothingness by accident?
you may as well try to sell the notion the moon is made of cheese.
You and this intelligent design crap again.

Explain wisdom teeth.
Explain why other solar systems have planets.
Explain why 99% of all species ever found are fossilized in rock or are extinct.

Just because you can not understand how something was made and or formed does not by default mean that "goddidit."

How many things over the course of the last 100 years have been explained or "intelligently designed" (I'll use your word here) by the scientific method.

Religion solves and explains nothing. It has always been a wedge against peace and learning, not a pillar for it.

As stated by another poster: It is not just biology that believes in an older Earth.. it is everything from archaeology to cosmology to paleontology.

Science works... if it didn't, you would pray to your god to heal you and not bother with a hospital or modern medicine.

You set there and say it does not work or is a lie... that is being in denial or being a hypocrite.

“I'll have some FSM...”

Since: Sep 10

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#337
Jun 12, 2013
 

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Walterwalter wrote:
<quoted text>

you gonna tell me you have to program a computer first,
you have to paint a painting
build a building
sew a garment
but life could come into being from nothingness by accident?
you may as well try to sell the notion the moon is made of cheese.
AGAIN you are missing the point.

These are all things we KNOW are created by us. They are not organic material. This is the same crap as the "watchmaker" theory.

You can not take something that is build by us and compare it to organic material. It does not work that way.
Walterwalter wrote:
<quoted text>
you may as well try to sell the notion the moon is made of cheese.
Well until proven wrong by science... the church taught that the Earth was flat and that everything orbited the Earth... including the Sun.

Fun SCIENCE FACT:
You can fit 1,000,000 Earths inside our Sun... and it is not even close to the biggest star.

As I stated before... Light-speed alone disproves a young Earth.

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#338
Jun 12, 2013
 

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Walterwalter wrote:
<quoted text>
waaaaaaaaaa? i did not say anything about the north pole.
i said there are 4 seasons on the planet.
and regardless adding a day every 4 yrs still balances it out as 365 ....... always.
explain to me please how you think everything,(intelligently designed ) life could originate from NON life, and yet a painting has to have a painter?
So, the North Pole isn't on this planet? News to me!

As for life originating from non-life, ask yourself this: how could something not physical (God) create something physical?

Checkmate, moron.

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#339
Jun 12, 2013
 

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Walterwalter wrote:
<quoted text>
this is one of many reasons why atheists are known to be immoral people. How does making vulgar statements like that help your case on here? it doesn't. it proves my on going point that anti-God people are expressions of demonic substance.
Why am I vulgar? Your mother is the one going down on the cable guy, not me!

Come on, admit it - didn't you ever wonder how your mom can afford all those channels on her meager Social Security income?

By the way, I'm not anti-God. I'm anti- scumbags like YOU, who want to force everyone to bow down to your imaginary sky daddy.

Vulgarity isn't necessarily immoral, by the way.

"What is morality in any given time or place? It is what the majority then and there happen to like and immorality is what they dislike." - Alfred North Whitehead

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#340
Jun 12, 2013
 

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Walterwalter wrote:
<quoted text>
if you don't acknowledge or believe in a Creator God then all i can tell you is that you are MISSING (majorily missing) the uniqueness of life.
the vast universe
the percision of our solor system
Do you know what YOU'RE missing?

An education.

There are no such words as "majorily" or "percision" or "solor."

You're barely literate, and you think you can engage in a logical argument with me? ROFL!

Go get a real education, then come back when you're ready to play with the big kids.

Until then, squirt, buzz off and leave us alone.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

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#341
Jun 12, 2013
 

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Walterwalter wrote:
<quoted text>
waaaaaaaaaa? i did not say anything about the north pole.
i said there are 4 seasons on the planet.
and regardless adding a day every 4 yrs still balances it out as 365 ....... always.
explain to me please how you think everything,(intelligently designed ) life could originate from NON life, and yet a painting has to have a painter?
the length of our human year is irrelevant to the planet. that its 365 days is meaningless to anything on or off this planet. It only matters to us.

everything that is "life" is made of chemicals, which is non-life.

There is no proof of a designer. None! A designer would always leave a trace. Your claims are not proof.

Who created your creator?
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

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#342
Jun 12, 2013
 

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Walterwalter wrote:
<quoted text>
did you really just say that?
i tried to make sesasons sound UNIQUE as in a privileged planet?
scooter you need to sit down and do some deep soul searching, because we are privileged. Unless you can show me another planet/earth that is unique like we are, you got zip.
if you don't acknowledge or believe in a Creator God then all i can tell you is that you are MISSING (majorily missing) the uniqueness of life.
the vast universe
the percision of our solor system
the beauty of nature, the UNIQUE DESIGN of everything.
the way it all works together to sustain this privileged life we all are so blessed to have and enjoy.
nature isn't a 'thing', but a system.
tell me how a single cell of life is generated by nature?
you can read multiple science articles to, and see how scientist MARVEL at the complexities of life in a single cell.
in order for DNA to exist which makes everything unique and maps it out in a specific direction, there HAS to be a designer.
to say otherwise is to stick your head in the sand and pretend otherwise.
you gonna tell me you have to program a computer first,
you have to paint a painting
build a building
sew a garment
but life could come into being from nothingness by accident?
you may as well try to sell the notion the moon is made of cheese.
I miss nothing about the uniqueness, as far as we know, of this life, this planet and whats out there. In fact, without that silly myth of God hanging all over it all - its even more fantastic. More interesting, and certainly makes it more unique.

A bored and lonely Super being creating stuff, then smashing it when he's in a mood...? Boring and cliched...!

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#343
Jun 13, 2013
 

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Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>I miss nothing about the uniqueness, as far as we know, of this life, this planet and whats out there. In fact, without that silly myth of God hanging all over it all - its even more fantastic. More interesting, and certainly makes it more unique.
A bored and lonely Super being creating stuff, then smashing it when he's in a mood...? Boring and cliched...!
As always, my friend, you make an important point: the notion that the universe came into being on its own (or that it always existed) and is so vast and incredibly complex is much more wondrous than the idea that a Supreme Being simply uttered it into existence.

I often challenge believers to explain why God is "awesome." What is so "awesome" about a being that can do absolutely anything, without restraints or limitations?

Why would I revere a being who expends zero effort? Show me someone who has accomplished amazing feats despite overwhelming insurmountable obstacles, and I will proclaim their feats to be "awesome."

But God? Not awesome at all. You'd expect a God to be able to do all that stuff, so what's the big deal?
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

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#344
Jun 13, 2013
 

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Some religious people think of the word “theory” as it is used in everyday speech. They frequently suggest that the Theory of Evolution is “only a theory” therefore just a guess or speculation. This of course is absurd to anyone who understands the formal scientific definition of the word “theory”. What they are thinking of would be called a “hypothesis” in science. A scientific “hypothesis” is a proposed explanation of a phenomenon which still has to be rigorously tested.

“In everyday usage,‘theory’ often refers to a hunch or a speculation. When people say,‘I have a theory about why that happened,’ they are often drawing a conclusion based on fragmentary or inconclusive evidence. The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence.”– U.S. National Academy of Sciences

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#345
Jun 13, 2013
 

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10uhsee wrote:
<quoted text>
You and this intelligent design crap again.
Explain wisdom teeth.
Explain why other solar systems have planets.
Explain why 99% of all species ever found are fossilized in rock or are extinct.
Just because you can not understand how something was made and or formed does not by default mean that "goddidit."
How many things over the course of the last 100 years have been explained or "intelligently designed" (I'll use your word here) by the scientific method.
Religion solves and explains nothing. It has always been a wedge against peace and learning, not a pillar for it.
As stated by another poster: It is not just biology that believes in an older Earth.. it is everything from archaeology to cosmology to paleontology.
Science works... if it didn't, you would pray to your god to heal you and not bother with a hospital or modern medicine.
You set there and say it does not work or is a lie... that is being in denial or being a hypocrite.
waaaaaaaaaaa? explain wisdom teeth? why? explain thumbs.
teeth are teeth.
wisdom, fangs, teeth are teeth.

explain why even though other solar systems have planets NONE have earth with sustainable life as we do?

not all fossils you find are extinct.
you can find fossils of all sorts of past life that still exists today.

UH, no one, i repeat NO ONE can explain how life came to be other than Genesis.
no scientist has explained how DNA and all the complexed componets in a single cell of life got there to begin with.

Can you 'create' a single grain of sand or blade of grass FROM SCRATCH?
nope.

God did it, because LOGIC dictates that every creation MUST have a creator.
explosions in space don't generate LIFE.
and put intelligent design in it.
Job

Cupertino, CA

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#346
Jun 13, 2013
 
HighlyEvolved wrote:
<quoted text>
As always, my friend, you make an important point: the notion that the universe came into being on its own (or that it always existed) and is so vast and incredibly complex is much more wondrous than the idea that a Supreme Being simply uttered it into existence.
I often challenge believers to explain why God is "awesome." What is so "awesome" about a being that can do absolutely anything, without restraints or limitations?
Why would I revere a being who expends zero effort? Show me someone who has accomplished amazing feats despite overwhelming insurmountable obstacles, and I will proclaim their feats to be "awesome."
But God? Not awesome at all. You'd expect a God to be able to do all that stuff, so what's the big deal?
I can understand what you're saying here, at least to some degree.

First off, this concept you've expressed obviously cannot be an argument used to suggest that God doesn't exist. One concept being more 'wondrous' than another doesn't imply proof, in this case of non-existence of God.

One of the Christian conflicts a believer must face, who is subject to being fascinated by what's around us, is that while we are visually marveling, we also run across what we would rather avoid. Which is human suffering.

Matthew 24:2

New International Version (NIV)

2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked.“Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

This was Jesus' response to His disciples who were pointing out a 'magnificent' temple. I'm sure Jesus understood that it was indeed, in a sense,'magnificent'. But the state of being impressed was 'minimal'. Instead, Jesus' focus was always on humans, many of them suffering.

Why is God great? One reason we might say He is great is because while we, including myself, are enthralled by nature and technology, the 'Creator' is rescuing an unnoticed homeless man lying in an alley.

At the risk of sounding manipulative, did you know, as per Biblical scripture, if 'you' became a believer today, and yes, at the risk of offense, repented of your sins, it would be a huge event in Heaven? It would probably make no newspaper on Earth, but it would be celebrated in Heaven...just for you...

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#347
Jun 13, 2013
 

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Job wrote:
<quoted text>
I can understand what you're saying here, at least to some degree.
First off, this concept you've expressed obviously cannot be an argument used to suggest that God doesn't exist. One concept being more 'wondrous' than another doesn't imply proof, in this case of non-existence of God.
One of the Christian conflicts a believer must face, who is subject to being fascinated by what's around us, is that while we are visually marveling, we also run across what we would rather avoid. Which is human suffering.
Matthew 24:2
New International Version (NIV)
2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked.“Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
This was Jesus' response to His disciples who were pointing out a 'magnificent' temple. I'm sure Jesus understood that it was indeed, in a sense,'magnificent'. But the state of being impressed was 'minimal'. Instead, Jesus' focus was always on humans, many of them suffering.
Why is God great? One reason we might say He is great is because while we, including myself, are enthralled by nature and technology, the 'Creator' is rescuing an unnoticed homeless man lying in an alley.
At the risk of sounding manipulative, did you know, as per Biblical scripture, if 'you' became a believer today, and yes, at the risk of offense, repented of your sins, it would be a huge event in Heaven? It would probably make no newspaper on Earth, but it would be celebrated in Heaven...just for you...
Two quick points:

1) God rescuing a homeless man is nice, but don't ever forget that he allowed that man to become homeless in the first place. So, on balance, God isn't so great after all. He wants you to forget the bad things he allows to happen, so that when he swoops down and does something nice you praise him. Don't ever forget that Yahweh claims to be so jealous that his very NAME is "Jealous." What good is a deity who is so pathetically human?

2) If God knows everything, then he knows if I'll be saved or not. If I'm saved, why would there be celebration? God would have known with absolute certainty that it was coming. Think about it - does anyone celebrate anything that was 100% guaranteed to happen? No; people celebrate things that may have been expected, but not guaranteed. Which celebration is greater, a person's 23rd birthday or their 100th? Do you see my point?

“I'll have some FSM...”

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#348
Jun 13, 2013
 

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Walterwalter wrote:
<quoted text>
waaaaaaaaaaa? explain wisdom teeth? why? explain thumbs.
teeth are teeth.
wisdom, fangs, teeth are teeth.
The point is there is no reason for wisdom teeth... the reason that there is no reason for them now, is because we have evolved past the use of them but they are a remnant of what once was.

Another one for you to look into would be the human appendix
Walterwalter wrote:
<quoted text>
explain why even though other solar systems have planets NONE have earth with sustainable life as we do?
This makes no sense... just because Earth is here and you can question its existence, it does not mean "goddidit."

You have no idea of the vastness of space or the things we can not see because they are billions of light years away. Just because we are the only life forms we know about right now... it does not mean that we are all there is.

Again... Light-speed alone disproves a young Earth... we don't even have to touch evolution to debunk that.
Walterwalter wrote:
<quoted text>
not all fossils you find are extinct.
you can find fossils of all sorts of past life that still exists today.
Again... 99% of ALL life that ever existed on this planet is EXTINCT.
Walterwalter wrote:
<quoted text>
UH, no one, i repeat NO ONE can explain how life came to be other than Genesis.
Yes... it also states that there was light before the Sun and that the Earth was created before the Sun. Nearly any astronomer would laugh in your face with this nonsense.

Genesis is the STORY you want to believe. It does not mean it is true and it does not coincide with things we KNOW to be true and tested.
Walterwalter wrote:
<quoted text>
no scientist has explained how DNA and all the complexed componets in a single cell of life got there to begin with.
Can you 'create' a single grain of sand or blade of grass FROM SCRATCH?
Actually we have a very good idea now

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs.html

Go there and become more familiar with what you are arguing against.
Walterwalter wrote:
<quoted text>
nope.
God did it, because LOGIC dictates that every creation MUST have a creator.
explosions in space don't generate LIFE.
and put intelligent design in it.
Yes... you don't understand something, so clearly, goddidit.

Also... by your same logic... who created god?
I mean if everything needs a creator and you want to play that game... who created your god?

“I'll have some FSM...”

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#349
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Job wrote:
<quoted text>
I can understand what you're saying here, at least to some degree.
First off, this concept you've expressed obviously cannot be an argument used to suggest that God doesn't exist. One concept being more 'wondrous' than another doesn't imply proof, in this case of non-existence of God.
One of the Christian conflicts a believer must face, who is subject to being fascinated by what's around us, is that while we are visually marveling, we also run across what we would rather avoid. Which is human suffering.
Matthew 24:2
New International Version (NIV)
2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked.“Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
This was Jesus' response to His disciples who were pointing out a 'magnificent' temple. I'm sure Jesus understood that it was indeed, in a sense,'magnificent'. But the state of being impressed was 'minimal'. Instead, Jesus' focus was always on humans, many of them suffering.
Why is God great? One reason we might say He is great is because while we, including myself, are enthralled by nature and technology, the 'Creator' is rescuing an unnoticed homeless man lying in an alley.
At the risk of sounding manipulative, did you know, as per Biblical scripture, if 'you' became a believer today, and yes, at the risk of offense, repented of your sins, it would be a huge event in Heaven? It would probably make no newspaper on Earth, but it would be celebrated in Heaven...just for you...
Problem is, you have no proof he helped the "homeless guy" we do know he lets children get raped in his churches and lets them die in mass numbers all around the world due to starvation and curable sickness.

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