“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

Since: Aug 08

HAPPY TOGETHER!!!

#106 Dec 1, 2012
downhill246 wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh neat, a war of facts.
"The feast of the birthday of the sun, while definitely Pagan, wasn't pre-Christian. It was only established in 274 CE by the emperor Aurelian. Even more significant, the most important feast day of Sol Invictus wasn't even on December 25th, but rather took place in October"
(Hutton, Ronald. The Stations of the Sun: A History of the Ritual Year in Britain. New York: Oxford University Press, 1996. p.1,2)
You are easy.
Sorry, not where I got my information from and there are plenty of sites that will show that Jesus wasn't born in December......even Christian sites.......lol!!

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#107 Dec 1, 2012
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
.
I have more than a clue. I gave clear irrefutable historical evidence that NCN's argument is a lie. He presented NO, ZERO, NONE evidence only a quote from an anonymous source online.
.
Throwing excrement at everything you don't like doesn't really rise to the level of 'clue'.
downhill246

Boca Raton, FL

#108 Dec 1, 2012
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
Hell, his mother didn't even know HOW SHE GOT PREGNANT.....so how could she have known when his birth actually was......and it wasn't DECEMBER......more in the time from of 6 months after Passover!!!!


So are you saying a women who gets drunk at a party, has sex with person unknown and becomes pregnant wouldn't know the birth date of her child? That has to be one heck of a hangover. I believe it was December and have posted many arguments supporting my claim.

'Inside the Vatican' magazine also supported Dec. 25, citing a report from St. John Chrysostom (patriarch of Constantinople who died in A.D. 407) that Christians had marked Dec. 25 from the early days of the church. Chrysostom had a further argument that modern scholars ignore:

Luke 1 says Zechariah was performing priestly duty in the Temple when an angel told his wife Elizabeth she would bear John the Baptist. During the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, Mary learned about her conception of Jesus and visited Elizabeth “with haste.”

The 24 classes of Jewish priests served one week in the Temple, and Zechariah was in the eighth class. Rabbinical tradition fixed the class on duty when the Temple was destroyed in A.D. 70 and, calculating backward from that, Zechariah’s class would have been serving Oct. 2-9 in 5 B.C. So Mary’s conception visit six months later would have occurred the following March ( the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy) and Jesus’ birth nine months afterward.(December)
downhill246

Boca Raton, FL

#109 Dec 1, 2012
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
No reason to deflect......just posting that Jesus was not born when you believe he was......and if you had given a College Professor that lame Wikipedia link.....you'd have gotten an "F" on any paper you had written.....at least where I attended my Post Graduate education!!!
And you would get a double F for not showing up or are you linking your opinion to non posted sources on the assumption that i will take your word for it?
downhill246

Boca Raton, FL

#110 Dec 1, 2012
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry, not where I got my information from and there are plenty of sites that will show that Jesus wasn't born in December......even Christian sites.......lol!!
There are Christian sites and there are Christian sites.You do realize that after the Reformation Protestant theologians often tried to discredit the traditions taught by the Roman Catholic church and Dec 25th was targeted by some sects as being unbiblical.

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

Since: Aug 08

HAPPY TOGETHER!!!

#111 Dec 1, 2012
downhill246 wrote:
<quoted text>
So are you saying a women who gets drunk at a party, has sex with person unknown and becomes pregnant wouldn't know the birth date of her child? That has to be one heck of a hangover. I believe it was December and have posted many arguments supporting my claim.
'Inside the Vatican' magazine also supported Dec. 25, citing a report from St. John Chrysostom (patriarch of Constantinople who died in A.D. 407) that Christians had marked Dec. 25 from the early days of the church. Chrysostom had a further argument that modern scholars ignore:
Luke 1 says Zechariah was performing priestly duty in the Temple when an angel told his wife Elizabeth she would bear John the Baptist. During the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, Mary learned about her conception of Jesus and visited Elizabeth “with haste.”
The 24 classes of Jewish priests served one week in the Temple, and Zechariah was in the eighth class. Rabbinical tradition fixed the class on duty when the Temple was destroyed in A.D. 70 and, calculating backward from that, Zechariah’s class would have been serving Oct. 2-9 in 5 B.C. So Mary’s conception visit six months later would have occurred the following March ( the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy) and Jesus’ birth nine months afterward.(December)
We aren't discussing modern times.........are we?

You keep insisting that Jesus was born in December and he wasn't........not plausible or realistic.

If you ask the question, "Was Jesus Christ born on December 25th?"........you will get 6,120,000 results
Here's one:
http://www.ucg.org/bible-faq/when-was-jesus-c...

Here's another:
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/was-jesus-...

and yet another:
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php...

All of these Christian sites disagree with your assessment on the birth of Jesus Christ.......are they all wrong? or are you? How many more sites do you need before figuring it out that the Date may not be what you have been told?

See, that's the difference between us, I don't doubt Jesus was born, just not in December and if you believe the date in December, then it tells me that you believe in a religion that is based on a fallacy.

I don't follow the bible for the same reason I left formalized religion so many years ago.......to many things didn't add up or make sense!!!

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

Since: Aug 08

HAPPY TOGETHER!!!

#112 Dec 1, 2012
downhill246 wrote:
<quoted text>
There are Christian sites and there are Christian sites.You do realize that after the Reformation Protestant theologians often tried to discredit the traditions taught by the Roman Catholic church and Dec 25th was targeted by some sects as being unbiblical.
Aww, now it makes sense why you believe as you do. You appear to follow the Catholic doctrine.......and the RCC has been wrong on many things in their history.

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

Since: Aug 08

HAPPY TOGETHER!!!

#113 Dec 1, 2012
downhill246 wrote:
<quoted text>
And you would get a double F for not showing up or are you linking your opinion to non posted sources on the assumption that i will take your word for it?
Sorry, no I wouldn't......I always source where my information comes from when I post information from a particular site.

I have over 6 pages of references with regard to my Thesis:-)

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

Since: Aug 08

HAPPY TOGETHER!!!

#114 Dec 1, 2012
downhill246 wrote:
<quoted text>
And you would get a double F for not showing up or are you linking your opinion to non posted sources on the assumption that i will take your word for it?
By the way keltic9mm.....how's life been treating ya?

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#115 Dec 1, 2012
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
Obviously you are really clueless.......I'm not a male and have given plenty of links proving the same information about Jesus not being born in December, let alone on the 25th!!!!
Oh and your irrefutable source is what.....the bible? Some book you read? or just your religious beliefs?
All one has to do is a little research and there are plenty of sources that can go either way........frankly, I have serious doubts about Jesus being born on Christmas day........and if I doubt that, then everything else about Christianity is also in doubt!!!!
By the way......it's my right to question Christianity, the bible and the birth of Jesus Christ.......if you don't like that, TO FRUCKING BAD!!!
.
Good have doubts! Question as much as you like. I have questioned everything from the time I first became a Christian, as an adult, very likely before you were born.
.
My objection was to a copy/paste from an anonymous website which presented NO, ZERO, NONE evidence of any kind. Just some ranting anti-Christian spouting garbage, "this didn't happen,""that didn't happen," etc. And there are people like you who will believe anything, from anywhere, as long as it appears to support your assumptions/presuppositions.
.
If you had even bothered to read my post my irrefutable source was not the Bible and it was not Christian it was the Talmud.
.
Clueless? How the "H" am I supposed to know you are a female?

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#117 Dec 1, 2012
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, we know that Jesus wasn't born in December or on the 25th of that month.......Shepard's don't typically attend to their flock in the winter!!!
.
Let's try this again and see if NCN can read credible scholarly sources. Or if all she can do is copy/paste unsupported anti-Christian ranting from atheists-r-us.
.
That the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem,949 was a settled conviction. Equally so was the belief, that He was to be revealed from Migdal Eder,‘the tower of the flock.’950 This Migdal Eder was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheepground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah951 leads to the conclusion, that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for Temple-sacrifices,952 and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. The latter were under the ban of Rabbinism,953 on account of their necessary isolation from religious ordinances, and their manner of life, which rendered strict legal observance unlikely, if not absolutely impossible. The same Mishnic passage also leads us to infer, that these flocks lay out all the year round, since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover - that is, in the month of February, when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest.954 Thus, Jewish tradition in some dim manner apprehended the first revelation of the Messiah from that Migdal Eder, where shepherds watched the Temple-flocks all the year round. Of the deep symbolic significance of such a coincidence, it is needless to speak.

949 In the curious story of His birth, related in the Jer. Talmud (Ber. ii. 3), He is said to have been born in ‘the royal castle of
Bethlehem;’ while in the parallel narrative in the Midr. on Lament. i. 16, ed. W. p. 64 b) the somewhat mysterious expression
is used {hebrew}. But we must keep in view the Rabbinic statement that, even if a castle falls down, it is still called a castle
(Yalkut, vol. ii. p. 60 b).

950 Targum Pseudo-Jon. On Gen. xxxv. 21.

951 Shek. vii. 4.

952 In fact the Mishnah (Baba K. vii. 7) expressly forbids the keeping of flocks throughout the land of Israel, except in the
wilderness - and the only flocks otherwise kept, would be those for the Temple-services (Baba K. 80 a).

953 This disposes of an inapt quotation (from Delitzsch) by Dr. Geikie. No one could imagine, that the Talmudic passages in
question could apply to such shepherds as these.

954 The mean of 22 seasons in Jerusalem amounted to 4.718 inches in December, 5.479 in January, and 5.207 in February (see a very interesting paper by Dr. Chaplin in Quart. Stat. of Pal. Explor. Fund, January, 1883). For 1876-77 we have these startling figures: mean for December,.490; for January, 1.595; for February, 8.750 - and, similarly, in other years. And so we read:‘Good the year in which Tebheth (December) is without rain’(Taan. 6 b). Those who have copied Lightfoot’s quotations about the flocks not lying out during the winter months ought, at least, to have known that the reference in the Talmudic passages is expressly to the flocks which pastured in ‘the wilderness’({hebrew}). But even so, the statement, as so many others of the kind,is not accurate. For, in the Talmud two opinions are expressed. According to one, the ‘Midbariyoth,’ or ‘animals of the wilderness,’are those which go to the open at the Passovertime, and return at the first rains (about November); while, on the other hand,Rabbi maintains, and, as it seems, more authoritatively, that the wilderness-flocks remain in the open alike in the hottest days and in the rainy season - i.e. all the year round (Bezah 40 a). Comp. also Tosephta Bezah iv. 6. A somewhat different explanation is given in Jer. Bezah 63 b.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edersheim/lifetimes....

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#118 Dec 1, 2012
Except for the shepherds who tended the temple flock. See Alfred Edersheim, "The life and Times of Jesus the Messaih," pg 611-612
.
That the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem,949 was a settled conviction. Equally so was the belief, that He was to be revealed from Migdal Eder,‘the tower of the flock.’950 This Migdal Eder was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheepground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah951 leads to the conclusion, that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for Temple-sacrifices,952 and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. The latter were under the ban of Rabbinism,953 on account of their necessary isolation from religious ordinances, and their manner of life, which rendered strict legal observance unlikely, if not absolutely impossible. The same Mishnic passage also leads us to infer, that these flocks lay out all the year round, since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover - that is, in the month of February, when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest.954 Thus, Jewish tradition in some dim manner apprehended the first revelation of the Messiah from that Migdal Eder, where shepherds watched the Temple-flocks all the year round. Of the deep symbolic significance of such a coincidence, it is needless to speak
.
Normal Flora wrote:
Do you know what it means to "beg the question?"
.
How have I begged the question? I presented evidence from a Jewish source showing that the birth of Jesus could well have occurred in December. Please see my most recent post with the footnote information.

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#119 Dec 1, 2012
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
We aren't discussing modern times.........are we?
You keep insisting that Jesus was born in December and he wasn't........not plausible or realistic.
If you ask the question, "Was Jesus Christ born on December 25th?"........you will get 6,120,000 results
Here's one:
http://www.ucg.org/bible-faq/when-was-jesus-c...
Here's another:
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/was-jesus-...
and yet another:
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php...
All of these Christian sites disagree with your assessment on the birth of Jesus Christ.......are they all wrong? or are you? How many more sites do you need before figuring it out that the Date may not be what you have been told?.*.*.*.
.
Once again quoting from some random websites which appear to support your assumptions/presuppostions. All three of these sites are totally devoid of any credible, verifiable, historical, evidence for anything. Nothing but empty arguments and unsupported assertions.
.
Evidently you have no concept of what constitutes credible, verifiable, historical, evidence. Just because it is posted online does not make it true.
.

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

Since: Aug 08

HAPPY TOGETHER!!!

#120 Dec 1, 2012
Allen Richards wrote:
How the "H" am I supposed to know you are a female?
Before making an ASSumption about my gender, all ya have to do is ask!!!

As for the rest of your post.......you don't really have an irrefutable source, what you have is your faith......and that's not irrefutable!!!

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

Since: Aug 08

HAPPY TOGETHER!!!

#121 Dec 1, 2012
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
.
Once again quoting from some random websites which appear to support your assumptions/presuppostions. All three of these sites are totally devoid of any credible, verifiable, historical, evidence for anything. Nothing but empty arguments and unsupported assertions.
.
Evidently you have no concept of what constitutes credible, verifiable, historical, evidence. Just because it is posted online does not make it true.
.
First off.......I DIDN'T QUOTE ANYTHING FROM THOSE SITES......just posted the links to them!!!

Secondly........They are all Christian websites and just because you opt not to read them or accept what they stated, doesn't mean the information is not credible or true.........you just don't agree with them and that's your right......but I hardly doubt they would consider your opinion as credible as well!!!

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

Since: Aug 08

HAPPY TOGETHER!!!

#122 Dec 1, 2012
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
.
Let's try this again and see if NCN can read credible scholarly sources. Or if all she can do is copy/paste unsupported anti-Christian ranting from atheists-r-us.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edersheim/lifetimes....
So, because you post a site that you agree with.....THAT'S SUPPOSE TO MAKE IT CREDIBLE? Sorry, but your link is no more credible or the truth than any of the other sites that I've posted......it's just one you believe in!!!

About your source:
The Christian Classics Ethereal Library is a digital library of hundreds of classic Christian books selected for edification and education. The online www.ccel.org server reaches several million different users each year.

CCEL texts are stored in our own Theological Markup Language, which is an XML application. Texts are converted automatically into other formats such as HTML or PDF.

Suggestions are available on how to use the CCEL books. One form of meditation commonly used with these books is called Lectio Divina.

Additional information about the CCEL is available:

Common questions and answers
A narrative about the origins of the CCEL
The CCEL vision
The governance of the CCEL

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#123 Dec 1, 2012
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
First off.......I DIDN'T QUOTE ANYTHING FROM THOSE SITES......just posted the links to them!!!
Secondly........They are all Christian websites and just because you opt not to read them or accept what they stated, doesn't mean the information is not credible or true.........you just don't agree with them and that's your right......but I hardly doubt they would consider your opinion as credible as well!!!
.
Your are a damned LIAR! I did read them which is evidently more than you did. I read them that is how I know none of the three presents any credible, verifiable, historical evidence. Just some anonymous clown claiming that Jesus could not have been born in December because shepherds were supposedly not out in the fields at that time of year, etc. The Jewish sources I presented prove that assertion to be a lie!
.
Just because a website claims to be Christian does NOT make them correct. Just claiming to be Christians does not lend any credibility to unsupported assertions.
.
I suggest you learn what credible, verifiable, historical evidence. Saying it is a Christian website does NOT make it authoritative.
.

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#124 Dec 1, 2012
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
So, because you post a site that you agree with.....THAT'S SUPPOSE TO MAKE IT CREDIBLE? Sorry, but your link is no more credible or the truth than any of the other sites that I've posted......it's just one you believe in!!!
About your source:
The Christian Classics Ethereal Library is a digital library of hundreds of classic Christian books selected for edification and education. The online www.ccel.org server reaches several million different users each year.
CCEL texts are stored in our own Theological Markup Language, which is an XML application. Texts are converted automatically into other formats such as HTML or PDF.
Suggestions are available on how to use the CCEL books. One form of meditation commonly used with these books is called Lectio Divina.
Additional information about the CCEL is available:
Common questions and answers
A narrative about the origins of the CCEL
The CCEL vision
The governance of the CCEL
.
Hey stupid! I was not quoting the CCEL! I was quoting from a classic text titled "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah" written by Alfred Edersheim a Christian author who was formerly orthodox Jewish. And, unlike the garbage site you linked to, the source I quoted listed several historical Jewish sources. See the footnotes. If you had a speck of objectivity you would know this. But all you can do is rant.
.
You abject ignorance about citing evidence and sources is mind boggling.
.

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#125 Dec 1, 2012
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
So, because you post a site that you agree with.....THAT'S SUPPOSE TO MAKE IT CREDIBLE? Sorry, but your link is no more credible or the truth than any of the other sites that I've posted......it's just one you believe in!!!
About your source:
The Christian Classics Ethereal Library is a digital library of hundreds of classic Christian books selected for edification and education. The online www.ccel.org server reaches several million different users each year.
CCEL texts are stored in our own Theological Markup Language, which is an XML application. Texts are converted automatically into other formats such as HTML or PDF.
Suggestions are available on how to use the CCEL books. One form of meditation commonly used with these books is called Lectio Divina.
Additional information about the CCEL is available:
Common questions and answers
A narrative about the origins of the CCEL
The CCEL vision
The governance of the CCEL
.
Hey stupid! Here is the link again look in the upper right hand corner and you will see that the CCEL is maintained by Calvin College.
.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edersheim/lifetimes....
.
"Calvin College is a comprehensive liberal arts college in the Reformed tradition of historic Christianity."

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

Since: Aug 08

HAPPY TOGETHER!!!

#126 Dec 1, 2012
Allen Richards wrote:
Just because a website claims to be Christian does NOT make them correct. Just claiming to be Christians does not lend any credibility to unsupported assertions.
Exactly......so, your website is no more credible or a reliable source just because you want it to be......thanks for proving my point!!!

Funny thing is that unless I'm using an online database like Questia.......most of the stuff that one can find online is up for interpretation by the person who is using the source......like I stated, with the specific question I asked in my google search.......over 6 million sites come up and I don't know which is credible or not........but they do provide the information that disagrees with what you want to believe.

Maybe if you'd stop calling folks liars who disagree with ya, you might learn something..........I didn't earn a Masters degree by writing crap and calling folks a liar who disagree with my topic.......besides, I don't care when Jesus was born, but your posts certainly do get rather pissy just because someone disagrees with ya.......get over it and believe as you want......I am not going to change my mind just because you call me names or a liar.

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