Pope admits church stole Pagan solstice celebration

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“Call sign: Apache One Six”

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#86
Nov 30, 2012
 

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NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
Who cares about your experience in the region......Jesus was NOT born on December 25th OF ANY YEAR.......more like March or September......but NOT December!!!
.
LIES, LIES and more LIES. Do you think by repeating the same lie, without any evidence, over and over somehow makes it true?
.
downhill246

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#87
Nov 30, 2012
 

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NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
Who cares about your experience in the region......Jesus was NOT born on December 25th OF ANY YEAR.......more like March or September......but NOT December!!!
Reading comprehension isn't your forte ,right? I'm not Archaeologist James Kelso who is the author of the book whose words are in "quotation marks".

John Chrysostom (347-407 A.D.), a contemporary of St. Augustine whose status in eastern Orthodoxy is comparable to that of Augustine in western Roman Catholicism, argued strongly for a December 25 birth date because he based his conclusion on the findings of Pope Julius. Bishop Cyril of Jerusalem (348-386 A.D.) had asked Pope Julius to ascertain the date of Christ’s birth "from the census documents brought by Titus to Rome" after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Julius then determined the date of Christ’s birth to be December 25.
Julius, Cyril, and John Chrysostom were not alone in their reliance upon the census documents. Justin Martyr (100-165 A.D.), in a detailed statement of the Christian faith addressed to Emperor Marcus Aurelius stated that Jesus was born in Bethlehem "as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing." (Apology, I, 34). Likewise, Tertullian (160-250 A.D.) wrote of "the census of Augustus — that most faithful witness of the Lord’s nativity, kept in the archives of Rome" Contra Marcion, Book 4, 7).

Alfred Edershiem, in his classic work "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah", cites ancient Jewish sources to the effect that there were flocks of sheep that “remain in the open alike in the hottest days and in the rainy season — i.e. all the year round”(Book 2, p. 186). There was also a special class of Levitical shepherds who kept sacrificial lambs in the field all year round because they were used for sacrifice every month of the year. Winters can be cold in Palestine, but they vary greatly, and some Decembers are rather mild.

"There is no adequate reason for questioning the historical accuracy of this date (December 25th). The objections generally made rest on grounds, which seem to me historically untenable."
Alfred Edershiem, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah-

Glad I could help.

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

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#88
Nov 30, 2012
 

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Nettiebelle wrote:
The Catholic Church gave us the Holy Bible. It is a Catholic document.
The New Testament was written BY the first Catholics.
If you are following the New Testament, you are following what reflects Catholic Canon.
.
God gave us the Holy Bible. It is a Christian document.
The New Testament was written BY the first Christians.
If you are following the New Testament, you are following what reflects Christian Canon.
.
downhill246

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#89
Nov 30, 2012
 

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Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
.
God gave us the Holy Bible. It is a Christian document.
The New Testament was written BY the first Christians.
If you are following the New Testament, you are following what reflects Christian Canon.
.
"It is remarkable, when one comes to think of it, that the four canonical Gospels are anonymous, whereas the 'Gospels' which proliferated in the late second century and afterwards claim to have been written by apostles and other eyewitnesses. Catholic churchmen found it necessary, therefore, to defend the apostolic authenticity of the Gospels. The apostolic authorship of Matthew and John are well established in tradition. But what of Mark and Luke? Their authorship was also well established in tradition"

Protestant scripture scholar F. F. Bruce,
(The Canon of Scripture, 257).

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

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#90
Nov 30, 2012
 

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Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
.
Repeating a LIE over and over does not make it true. Others have provided evidence all you can do is repeat your lie.
.
That's all fake Christians can do is call others liars when they can't come up with anything else.......sorry, but Jesus wasn't born on December 25th of ANY YEAR.......and basically if you believe that, then your entire religious belief is based on a fallacy!!

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

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#91
Nov 30, 2012
 

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downhill246 wrote:
<quoted text>
Reading comprehension isn't your forte ,right? I'm not Archaeologist James Kelso who is the author of the book whose words are in "quotation marks".
John Chrysostom (347-407 A.D.), a contemporary of St. Augustine whose status in eastern Orthodoxy is comparable to that of Augustine in western Roman Catholicism, argued strongly for a December 25 birth date because he based his conclusion on the findings of Pope Julius. Bishop Cyril of Jerusalem (348-386 A.D.) had asked Pope Julius to ascertain the date of Christ’s birth "from the census documents brought by Titus to Rome" after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Julius then determined the date of Christ’s birth to be December 25.
Julius, Cyril, and John Chrysostom were not alone in their reliance upon the census documents. Justin Martyr (100-165 A.D.), in a detailed statement of the Christian faith addressed to Emperor Marcus Aurelius stated that Jesus was born in Bethlehem "as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing." (Apology, I, 34). Likewise, Tertullian (160-250 A.D.) wrote of "the census of Augustus — that most faithful witness of the Lord’s nativity, kept in the archives of Rome" Contra Marcion, Book 4, 7).
Alfred Edershiem, in his classic work "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah", cites ancient Jewish sources to the effect that there were flocks of sheep that “remain in the open alike in the hottest days and in the rainy season — i.e. all the year round”(Book 2, p. 186). There was also a special class of Levitical shepherds who kept sacrificial lambs in the field all year round because they were used for sacrifice every month of the year. Winters can be cold in Palestine, but they vary greatly, and some Decembers are rather mild.
"There is no adequate reason for questioning the historical accuracy of this date (December 25th). The objections generally made rest on grounds, which seem to me historically untenable."
Alfred Edershiem, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah-
Glad I could help.
My reading comprehension skills are just fine........and I don't give a damn about what this author wrote........A child was born on December 25th, it just happen to be a Pagan child or God, NOT Jesus Christ.

No one knows what day Jesus Christ was born on. From the biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the bible records shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter. So why do we celebrate Christ's birthday as Christmas, on December the 25th?

In 350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ's birth would be celebrated on December 25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their feasts would not be taken away from them.
http://www.essortment.com/christmas-pagan-ori...

You can believe whatever you want.......but the truth is that Jesus was not born in December......and frankly, if one lie was told and folks believed......how many other lies have been told under the disguise of Christianity!!!
Thinking

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#92
Dec 1, 2012
 

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Why didn't god lay a big jesus sized egg instead of interfering with a young woman?
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
.
Except for the shepherds who tended the temple flock. See Alfred Edersheim, "The life and Times of Jesus the Messaih," pg 611-612
.
That the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem,949 was a settled conviction. Equally so was the belief, that He was to be revealed from Migdal Eder,‘the tower of the flock.’950 This Migdal Eder was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheepground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah951 leads to the conclusion, that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for Temple-sacrifices,952 and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. The latter were under the ban of Rabbinism,953 on account of their necessary isolation from religious ordinances, and their manner of life, which rendered strict legal observance unlikely, if not absolutely impossible. The same Mishnic passage also leads us to infer, that these flocks lay out all the year round, since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover - that is, in the month of February, when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest.954 Thus, Jewish tradition in some dim manner apprehended the first revelation of the Messiah from that Migdal Eder, where shepherds watched the Temple-flocks all the year round. Of the deep symbolic significance of such a coincidence, it is needless to speak.

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

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#93
Dec 1, 2012
 

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NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
My reading comprehension skills are just fine........and I don't give a damn about what this author wrote........A child was born on December 25th, it just happen to be a Pagan child or God, NOT Jesus Christ.
No one knows what day Jesus Christ was born on. From the biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the bible records shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter. So why do we celebrate Christ's birthday as Christmas, on December the 25th?
In 350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ's birth would be celebrated on December 25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their feasts would not be taken away from them.
http://www.essortment.com/christmas-pagan-ori...
You can believe whatever you want.......but the truth is that Jesus was not born in December......and frankly, if one lie was told and folks believed......how many other lies have been told under the disguise of Christianity!!!
.
Right! Just look at this idiotic copy/paste and even more idiotic comment. This fool thinks it must be true because some anonymous person posted it online, with NO, ZERO, NONE evidence of any kind!
.
You have got to be kidding!
.

“Wear white at night.”

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#94
Dec 1, 2012
 

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Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
.
Right! Just look at this idiotic copy/paste and even more idiotic comment. This fool thinks it must be true because some anonymous person posted it online, with NO, ZERO, NONE evidence of any kind!
.
You have got to be kidding!
.
Your heart is consumed by hatred. Get down on your knees, Allen, and pray.

“Wear white at night.”

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#95
Dec 1, 2012
 

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Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
.
LIES, LIES and more LIES. Do you think by repeating the same lie, without any evidence, over and over somehow makes it true?
.
Do you think calling something a lie when you haven't a clue makes you relevant?

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

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#96
Dec 1, 2012
 

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15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
Your heart is consumed by hatred. Get down on your knees, Allen, and pray.
.
You are right! I hate false doctrine. When people, like you spread, false teaching about the Christian faith, I oppose it.
.

“Wear white at night.”

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#97
Dec 1, 2012
 

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NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
My reading comprehension skills are just fine........and I don't give a damn about what this author wrote........A child was born on December 25th, it just happen to be a Pagan child or God, NOT Jesus Christ.
No one knows what day Jesus Christ was born on. From the biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the bible records shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter. So why do we celebrate Christ's birthday as Christmas, on December the 25th?
In 350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ's birth would be celebrated on December 25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their feasts would not be taken away from them.
http://www.essortment.com/christmas-pagan-ori...
You can believe whatever you want.......but the truth is that Jesus was not born in December......and frankly, if one lie was told and folks believed......how many other lies have been told under the disguise of Christianity!!!
Well, sure. You can't just march into Rome and tell the Romans you are throwing their entire religious practice in the dung heap and from now on they're going to worship some criminal they just crucified. If you incorporate some of their rituals and practices that don't interfere with the worship of Jesus Christ, or in the best case, increase it, no harm is done and the conversion is more palatable to the converts. A good example is the prosyletizing of the fundie cult of ignorance; just tell them slapping on a bumper fish and reciting some silly incantations is a free ticket to heaven and the ignorant clodhoppers will say 'Hey, that's the religion for me'. Just look around. Any hillbilly with a bunch of crud on his bumper is a happy hillbilly.

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

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#98
Dec 1, 2012
 

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15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you think calling something a lie when you haven't a clue makes you relevant?
.
I have more than a clue. I gave clear irrefutable historical evidence that NCN's argument is a lie. He presented NO, ZERO, NONE evidence only a quote from an anonymous source online.
.

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#99
Dec 1, 2012
 

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15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, sure. You can't just march into Rome and tell the Romans you are throwing their entire religious practice in the dung heap and from now on they're going to worship some criminal they just crucified. If you incorporate some of their rituals and practices that don't interfere with the worship of Jesus Christ, or in the best case, increase it, no harm is done and the conversion is more palatable to the converts. A good example is the prosyletizing of the fundie cult of ignorance; just tell them slapping on a bumper fish and reciting some silly incantations is a free ticket to heaven and the ignorant clodhoppers will say 'Hey, that's the religion for me'. Just look around. Any hillbilly with a bunch of crud on his bumper is a happy hillbilly.
Exactly.......and that's the problem with Allen and the rest of the so called "CHRISTIANS".......t hey enjoy attacking the religious beliefs of others, but don't like it when you point out issues with their religious beliefs.
downhill246

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#100
Dec 1, 2012
 

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NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
My reading comprehension skills are just fine........and I don't give a damn about what this author wrote........A child was born on December 25th, it just happen to be a Pagan child or God, NOT Jesus Christ.
No one knows what day Jesus Christ was born on. From the biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the bible records shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter. So why do we celebrate Christ's birthday as Christmas, on December the 25th?
In 350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ's birth would be celebrated on December 25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their feasts would not be taken away from them.
http://www.essortment.com/christmas-pagan-ori...
You can believe whatever you want.......but the truth is that Jesus was not born in December......and frankly, if one lie was told and folks believed......how many other lies have been told under the disguise of Christianity!!!
If you don't give a damn why do you keep responding to my posts?LOL
Sure Jesus was born in December. After Jesus was crucified his mother Mary became the responsibility of the Apostle John as commanded by Jesus and tradition has it that she spent the remainder of her life in his care. Wouldn't her Christian neighbors ask her about the life of Jesus and certainly when he was born? All mothers know the day their child was born.
December 25: Not just a memorial, an actual birth date.

//////////
Mediterranean climates such as Judea's have mild winters reaching their coolest in late February.[4] Thus December nights can be quite balmy and warm enough to graze sheep. Moreover, December/January would have been an ideal time to graze sheep to take advantage of the winter rains. During the hot months, conditions can be quite barren and the grasses dry. But the end of December was the time when the perennial grasses began to turn green again and the annual grasses had sprouted anew. Thus, climatically the ecclesiastical practice of placing Christ's birth between December 25 and January 6 is possible. Controversy over whether Christmas ought to be celebrated on December 25 or January 6 underscores the perceived importance of the day of Christ's birth and the determination of church fathers to be accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Je...

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

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#101
Dec 1, 2012
 

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Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
.
I have more than a clue. I gave clear irrefutable historical evidence that NCN's argument is a lie. He presented NO, ZERO, NONE evidence only a quote from an anonymous source online.
.
Obviously you are really clueless.......I'm not a male and have given plenty of links proving the same information about Jesus not being born in December, let alone on the 25th!!!!

Oh and your irrefutable source is what.....the bible? Some book you read? or just your religious beliefs?

All one has to do is a little research and there are plenty of sources that can go either way........frankly, I have serious doubts about Jesus being born on Christmas day........and if I doubt that, then everything else about Christianity is also in doubt!!!!

By the way......it's my right to question Christianity, the bible and the birth of Jesus Christ.......if you don't like that, TO FRUCKING BAD!!!
downhill246

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#102
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NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly.......and that's the problem with Allen and the rest of the so called "CHRISTIANS".......t hey enjoy attacking the religious beliefs of others, but don't like it when you point out issues with their religious beliefs.
Ah, when all else fails, deflect.
downhill246

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#103
Dec 1, 2012
 

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NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
Obviously you are really clueless.......I'm not a male and have given plenty of links proving the same information about Jesus not being born in December, let alone on the 25th!!!!
Oh and your irrefutable source is what.....the bible? Some book you read? or just your religious beliefs?
All one has to do is a little research and there are plenty of sources that can go either way........frankly, I have serious doubts about Jesus being born on Christmas day........and if I doubt that, then everything else about Christianity is also in doubt!!!!
By the way......it's my right to question Christianity, the bible and the birth of Jesus Christ.......if you don't like that, TO FRUCKING BAD!!!


Oh neat, a war of facts.

"The feast of the birthday of the sun, while definitely Pagan, wasn't pre-Christian. It was only established in 274 CE by the emperor Aurelian. Even more significant, the most important feast day of Sol Invictus wasn't even on December 25th, but rather took place in October"

(Hutton, Ronald. The Stations of the Sun: A History of the Ritual Year in Britain. New York: Oxford University Press, 1996. p.1,2)

You are easy.

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

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#104
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downhill246 wrote:
<quoted text>
If you don't give a damn why do you keep responding to my posts?LOL
Sure Jesus was born in December. After Jesus was crucified his mother Mary became the responsibility of the Apostle John as commanded by Jesus and tradition has it that she spent the remainder of her life in his care. Wouldn't her Christian neighbors ask her about the life of Jesus and certainly when he was born? All mothers know the day their child was born.
December 25: Not just a memorial, an actual birth date.
//////////
Mediterranean climates such as Judea's have mild winters reaching their coolest in late February.[4] Thus December nights can be quite balmy and warm enough to graze sheep. Moreover, December/January would have been an ideal time to graze sheep to take advantage of the winter rains. During the hot months, conditions can be quite barren and the grasses dry. But the end of December was the time when the perennial grasses began to turn green again and the annual grasses had sprouted anew. Thus, climatically the ecclesiastical practice of placing Christ's birth between December 25 and January 6 is possible. Controversy over whether Christmas ought to be celebrated on December 25 or January 6 underscores the perceived importance of the day of Christ's birth and the determination of church fathers to be accurate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Je...
Hell, his mother didn't even know HOW SHE GOT PREGNANT.....so how could she have known when his birth actually was......and it wasn't DECEMBER......more in the time from of 6 months after Passover!!!!

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

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#105
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downhill246 wrote:
<quoted text>
Ah, when all else fails, deflect.
No reason to deflect......just posting that Jesus was not born when you believe he was......and if you had given a College Professor that lame Wikipedia link.....you'd have gotten an "F" on any paper you had written.....at least where I attended my Post Graduate education!!!

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