This is a SECULAR nation...practice y...
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#244 Sep 16, 2012
Cookie_Parker wrote:
<quoted text>
Then prove your argument. YOu keep saying "I think" or " I doubt". That isn't presenting proof, it's presenting an agenda, as my proof has shown.
You haven't shown me any proof whatsoever. You're quoting from a slanted article. This is not recorded history, this is opinion on history.

I didn't say "I think" Thomas Paine was a deist, I said "we know for a fact he was". With Thomas Jefferson, I was actually giving the various proponents of him being a deist the benefit of the doubt. It's not as clear with TJ. All anyone can do with TJ is give an opinion. In 'my' opinion, chances are he at some point became a deist.
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#245 Sep 16, 2012
Cookie_Parker wrote:
Filled with the political cult agenda...and it sickens many to see it. However, exposed as it is now, the next step is taxing political cults...beginning with Robertson and continuing downward to you, preacher man.
What in the world are you talking about? Tax me for what? Did you think I was a pastor?

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#246 Sep 16, 2012
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
I think we're talking 2 different subjects here. I'm challenging Cookie to prove that the founding fathers were deists. So far, she hasn't come close. But I'm assuming that you were trying to help her out with her wild claim.
I have and twice. YOur dodging that won't make me the one who is lying...

Your born again evangelical god who lets you decide who to judge allows you to lie, too?

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#247 Sep 16, 2012
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
You haven't shown me any proof whatsoever. You're quoting from a slanted article. This is not recorded history, this is opinion on history.
I didn't say "I think" Thomas Paine was a deist, I said "we know for a fact he was". With Thomas Jefferson, I was actually giving the various proponents of him being a deist the benefit of the doubt. It's not as clear with TJ. All anyone can do with TJ is give an opinion. In 'my' opinion, chances are he at some point became a deist.
NO, I showed you the article from the NYTIMES....you choose to ignore it.

And bottomline, which you avoid like the plague trying to say I have not proved anything, if this WAS a Christian nation founded by CHRISTIAN men who came from a country where there WAS a national religion, why didn't these English founding fathers say Christianity is the national religion?

THAT is the one that you won't answer because THAT is the one that proves you wrong.
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#248 Sep 16, 2012
Cookie_Parker wrote:
<quoted text>
And far better educated than either or I, as they were the rich of England. IF they wanted this to be a Christian nation, having come from England, they would have stated it in the laws of government...the Constitution. It would have been shown that this was a nation and Christianity was its religion.
It was NOT stated, because there was no intention of making this a religious nation.
That's what I've been saying all along. They did not want the country to be run by a religious dictatorship as was the case in Europe.

The majority of the founding fathers were Christians. However, they did not want a 'religious' State.

What I'm questioning 'you' on is your insistence that the founding fathers were deists. There were 'some' of course. Quoting Paine and Jefferson does not mean the founding fathers were deists. Jefferson himself went to church services held right in the Capitol every Sunday morning (until they had to move to a larger facility).

Prove to me, that the founding fathers were deists...or at least the majority.

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#249 Sep 16, 2012
Job wrote:
What in the world are you talking about? Tax me for what? Did you think I was a pastor?
Are you a born again evangelical preacher? Are you someone paid by a born again evangelical group to come on here? Anyone attached to these people and this political cult should be taxed...
and it was in reference to the article I provided which proved this is not a Christian nation nor was it ever meant to be.

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#250 Sep 16, 2012
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
That's what I've been saying all along. They did not want the country to be run by a religious dictatorship as was the case in Europe.
The majority of the founding fathers were Christians. However, they did not want a 'religious' State.
What I'm questioning 'you' on is your insistence that the founding fathers were deists. There were 'some' of course. Quoting Paine and Jefferson does not mean the founding fathers were deists. Jefferson himself went to church services held right in the Capitol every Sunday morning (until they had to move to a larger facility).
Prove to me, that the founding fathers were deists...or at least the majority.
So you're changing the stakes again? YOu do that...it's annoying, but really reflects your agenda here....to talk in circles like a real fundie is taught to do.

What happened to this argument from you?
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
That's not really the reason. The article that the OP presented (along with a number of others) insinuated that the Bible had virtually no influence on American history. Basically one of the counters to the OPs 'extremist' views, and from articles the OP gleams from.
Did you concede that you were beaten in this view then? Do you concede the bible had no influence on American history?

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#251 Sep 16, 2012
Job wrote:
...

However when evangelical leaders do something like a "call to prayer", it often gets mistook as a command for everyone to pray, when it's actually directed towards only those who believe in prayer (Christians). So that person may be seen as a dominionist. So often what is really only encouragement for Christian individuals to take advantage of their rights, it gets viewed as a political movement to take over the nation, etc.
Lets face it, there's a lot of fear. There's the constant fear that a 'group' will step 'beyond' their rights, and attempt to take over. Christians are not exempt. And may come under more scrutiny because of our nation's Christian roots.
The "Call to Pray" is the imposition of requiring prayer in public places, is it not? And here you assert there are "CHristian roots"...changing the new approach now to deists? Are you denying we have CHristian roots, then?
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#252 Sep 16, 2012
Cookie_Parker wrote:
<quoted text>
NO, I showed you the article from the NYTIMES....you choose to ignore it.
And bottomline, which you avoid like the plague trying to say I have not proved anything, if this WAS a Christian nation founded by CHRISTIAN men who came from a country where there WAS a national religion, why didn't these English founding fathers say Christianity is the national religion?
THAT is the one that you won't answer because THAT is the one that proves you wrong.
No, I actually read it. It's just a counter-proposal to David Barton and Jay Sekulow. What skeptics generally do is address what is missing that they think should be there. They just give a "counter-proposal". It may look wonderful and even convincing to some, but it's only opinions.

Give me real proof that the founding fathers were deists. Not speculation. You mentioned the word "library". Just give me simple textbook proof. History should speak for itself. Don't give me someone's opinion that you agree with.

What I'm looking
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#253 Sep 16, 2012
Cookie_Parker wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you a born again evangelical preacher? Are you someone paid by a born again evangelical group to come on here? Anyone attached to these people and this political cult should be taxed...
and it was in reference to the article I provided which proved this is not a Christian nation nor was it ever meant to be.
No I'm not. What ever gave you that idea?

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#254 Sep 16, 2012
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
There's a number of "numbered" points I've made here. What 'exactly' do you wish me to prove?
Om a side note, I think the activist 'atheist','deist','no-religion ' orgs would do themselves well to be honest. The plain fact is, the U.S. was founded by Christians, who did not want 'religious' authoritarianism that 'their' fathers experienced in Europe. Admit that they don't approve of Christianity, and thus did 'not' approve of the founding fathers who were primarily Christian. Just admit it, rather than attempting to mold them into their "world view". In other words, stop trying to rewrite history.
Whether or not we were a Christian nation depends on how one wants to look at it. We 'weren't' "Christian" as in a 'requirement'. We 'were' Christian by virtue of the beliefs of the founding father's, who sought 'guidance' from the God of the Bible.
So, you concede you lost the argument and admit we are NOT a Christian nation founded by Christian men.

YOU keep changing the discussion..without conceding defeat...concede defeat here and then we can move on to the number of deists in the founding fathers camps...and even go into this.

http://www.barefootsworld.net/founding.html

Benjamin Franklin
Thomas Paine
John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
Geo. Washington

rom the pen of the most active writer and pamphleteer of his time, who almost single handedly with his writings, fomented the Spirit of Independence in the Citizens of the 13 Colonies, Thomas Paine, on Deism...

Every person, of whatever religious denomination he may be, is a DEIST in the first article of his Creed. Deism, from the Latin word Deus, God, is the belief of a God, and this belief is the first article of every man's creed.

It is on this article, universally consented to by all mankind, that the Deist builds his church, and here he rests. Whenever we step aside from this article, by mixing it with articles of human invention, we wander into a labyrinth of uncertainty and fable, and become exposed to every kind of imposition by pretenders to revelation.

The Persian shows the Zend-Avesta of Zoroaster, the lawgiver of Persia, and calls it the divine law; the Bramin shows the Shaster, revealed, he says, by God to Brama, and given to him out of a cloud; the Jew shows what he calls the law of Moses, given, he says, by God, on the Mount Sinai; the Christian shows a collection of books and epistles, written by nobody knows who, and called the New Testament; and the Mahometan shows the Koran, given, he says, by God to Mahomet: each of these calls itself revealed religion, and the only true Word of God, and this the followers of each profess to believe from the habit of education, and each believes the others are imposed upon.

... The creation is the Bible of the true believer in God. Everything in this vast volume inspires him with sublime ideas of the Creator. The little and paltry, and often obscene, tales of the Bible sink into wretchedness when put in comparison with this mighty work.

The Deist needs none of those tricks and shows called miracles to confirm his faith, for what can be a greater miracle than the creation itself, and his own existence?

There is a happiness in Deism, when rightly understood, that is not to be found in any other system of religion. All other systems have something in them that either shock our reason, or are repugnant to it, and man, if he thinks at all, must stifle his reason in order to force himself to believe them.

But in Deism our reason and our belief become happily united. The wonderful structure of the universe, and everything we behold in the system of the creation, prove to us, far better than books can do, the existence of a God, and at the same time proclaim His attributes.
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#255 Sep 16, 2012
Cookie_Parker wrote:
<quoted text>
1. The "Call to Pray" is the imposition of requiring prayer in public places, is it not?

2. And here you assert there are "CHristian roots"...changing the new approach now to deists? Are you denying we have CHristian roots, then?
1. Nope! Not any more than when New Agers proclaim a call to "harmonize" for world peace. Do you feel imposed upon when New Agers proclaim a global "hummmmming"?

2. I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#256 Sep 16, 2012
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I actually read it. It's just a counter-proposal to David Barton and Jay Sekulow. What skeptics generally do is address what is missing that they think should be there. They just give a "counter-proposal". It may look wonderful and even convincing to some, but it's only opinions.
Give me real proof that the founding fathers were deists. Not speculation. You mentioned the word "library". Just give me simple textbook proof. History should speak for itself. Don't give me someone's opinion that you agree with.
What I'm looking
I have on two occasions...stop copping out of what I asked you first.

And give me real proof that this nation was founded on Christianity.

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#257 Sep 16, 2012
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Nope! Not any more than when New Agers proclaim a call to "harmonize" for world peace. Do you feel imposed upon when New Agers proclaim a global "hummmmming"?
2. I'm not sure what you are talking about.
I'm quoting you...don't be so obtuse..the whole of the forum is reading this and seeing what a liar you are becoming.
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#258 Sep 16, 2012
Cookie_Parker wrote:
<quoted text>
NO, I showed you the article from the NYTIMES....you choose to ignore it.
And bottomline, which you avoid like the plague trying to say I have not proved anything, if this WAS a Christian nation founded by CHRISTIAN men who came from a country where there WAS a national religion, why didn't these English founding fathers say Christianity is the national religion?
THAT is the one that you won't answer because THAT is the one that proves you wrong.
Because they wanted "freedom" of religion. What people can't seem to grasp, is the idea that Christians honor personal choice. I don't want to force anyone to believe what I believe. Apparently they didn't either.

What history reveals, is that the majority of the founding fathers were Christians. They held church services right in the Capitol. If they weren't Christians, or if they were all deists, this would be highly unlikely.

So unfortunately, what we have is people making 'speculations' beyond what history reveals. Like it or not, we can't get into George Washington's head. We can only go by what is revealed. He believed in freedom of belief, but...he also believed that the Native Americans would be better of as Christians.

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#259 Sep 16, 2012
What is the question JOBS is wanting answered while he ducks requests for proof of his statements, as he demands we provide proof?
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
I've see this article a number of times. It's utter nonsense.
There's tons of proof that the majority of the founding fathers were Christians. None, save a few, were deists. The definition of 'deism' has had changes, but the basic description of a deist doesn't match the founding fathers. For instance George Washington referred to divine providence, which is contrary to the idea of a non-intervening God.'Providence' since then seems to have crept into the definition of deism somehow (divine intervention of modern anti-Christians).
They also attempt to get into the heads of people like George Washington. Suggesting he was a deist because he didn't at one point take communion. They 'can't' get into their heads. Leave their heads alone.
job wrote:
THIS IS VERY INTERESTING! After you check your state(s), look at the last
sentence or two.
America's founders did not intend for there to be a separation of God and
state, as shown by the fact that all 50 states acknowledge God in their
state constitutions:
Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the
favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following
Constitution ..
Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to
those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land ..
Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to
Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...
Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful
to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...
California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California,
grateful to Almighty God for our freedom .
Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence
for the Supreme Ruler of Universe .
Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with
gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...
Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature,
the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the
dictates
of
their consciences .
Florida 1845, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to
Almighty God for our constitutional liberty ... establish this
Constitution...
Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection
and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...
Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine
Guidance . establish this Constitution
Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to
Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings ..
Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful
to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath
so
long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our
endeavors
.
Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to
Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of
government
..
Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the
Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence
on Him for a continuation of these blessings ... establish this Constitution
Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God
for our civil and religious privileges . establish this Constitution.
Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth of grateful to
Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...
What's his question?

Separation of church and state?

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#260 Sep 16, 2012
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
On the contrary, it's a "Libertarian" blogger. The references to homosexual persecution in Communist countries can be found in a number of different avenues. But I also have to say that it's pretty much common knowledge. I only provided a link for emphasis.
gay bashing?

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#261 Sep 16, 2012
Job wrote:
4. No. That's only one of the definitions. And there's a 'fine' line when using that 'particular' definition. The problem is that if you hold strictly to that viewpoint, a country like the U.S., and probably the UK would have to eliminate laws that have been influenced by the 10 Commandments. There's no way around the influence the 10 Commandments have had in the western world.
The difference between the Islamic nations and the U.S., is that they are officially 'religious' States. The U.S. was never a religious 'State'. But it doesn't mean that there is 'no' Christian influence. As another example, Japan is a predominantly Buddhist and Shinto nation. But it's not a religious State. It once 'was' a religious State (Shinto was the religion of the 'State' of Japan).
Christians in the U.S. have the right to live their lives according to their belief, which includes giving their say on issues like Same-Sex Marriage, and voting accordingly. Laws in the past were 'influenced' by Christianity, and probably still are. That doesn't render the individual a 'theocrat' if they vote a certain way according to the religious convictions.
5. Well let me ask you right off the bat, giving the info I've given, unless you want to dispute it's accuracy, do you think the American founding fathers were theocratic? Do you think they were 'secular'?
See? NOT any separation of church and state and to PROVE that, he throws in the 10 commandmens and then says they have a right to IMPOSE Their beliefs on us...followed by the founding fathers were Christians.

Is this disconnected or what?

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#262 Sep 16, 2012
Job wrote:
What history reveals, is that the majority of the founding fathers were Christians. They held church services right in the Capitol. If they weren't Christians, or if they were all deists, this would be highly unlikely.
And then by asserting this, you want to believe that this is a Christian nation where the 10 commandments were used and that this religious freedom gives you christians the right to impose your values onto our secular laws...yeah, I know your gimmick. IT just doesn't work.

YOu have NOT Proven

1). The majority of the founding fathers were Christians.

2). THat the 10 commandments influenced our laws.

3). That you have been given "religious freedom" to impose your religious beliefs on others through the government legal system.

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#263 Sep 16, 2012
job wrote:
3. They couldn't agree on doctrine, and so when they held church services Sunday mornings in the Capitol, they utilized different preachers from different denominations. The Bible, however was a unifying theme. I don't think there's much mystery to that. And I think a lot of the references to America being a Christian nation, however that should or shouldn't be worded, is in defense of counter suggestions that there's no connection....

I think you know as well as I do, it's borderline treason among many, conservative 'or' liberal, to suggest anything negative about George Washington. We all tend to want him on our schoolyard basketball team when the team captain chooses the players. That being said, many don't want to place him in the same category of "Christian/Native American Relations". We certainly cannot pin any atrocities on him. But he did strongly 'suggest' that Native Americans should become Christians.
As far as the ill-treatment made by 'unknown' Christians, many could very well have been 'real' Christians. They didn't 'act' Christian, but some (I doubt all) were probably genuine. The man who wrote "Amazing Grace" had slaves 'after' his conversion as the story is told, for 7 years. It took 7 years to finally realize that 'slavery'(New World, Chattel) was 'wrong'.
Still intimating that this is a Christian nation even is no one declared it..and prove that last point about Washington.

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