Traditional Marriage, The way God int...
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Job

Santa Clara, CA

#182 Feb 10, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>Profound? Not for me. Its the same old dreck. Plus you have it backwards. If there are no kids they do not "suffer" from the pre-marital sex (fornication) of an as yet to be married parent. Unless they get married due to an Oops pregnancy...
Yeah, adultery does hurt the children of a couple in a dead marriage. So does the lack of love and yes even sex in the same loveless marriage. Children who dont see affection - wont grow to understand it as necessary.
But for the sake of the "Institution of Marriage" (most specious title for anything known to humankind) the couple should fake-it, till maybe the kids move out. Or they stay married and cheat...which we know is hard on the kids. Only to end up with bitter and angry parents and eventual grandparents.
Great examples, all to protect the Institution of Marriage.
There is no Institution of Marriage. There maybe should be, as most couples could use the higher institutionalized learning, but alas no such thing exists.
So in your example the couple "lost their fancy" - and as such should part ways if they cant - after effort - save it.
To tell the truth, the whole stupid notions behind "fancy each other" is part of the problem of marriage in the USA. Its part of the reason why we cant have a adult conversations in this country about reality.
I fancy a draft beer, I dont fancy a love-partner - unless its short term. And I have. And I'm no worse for the wear. Nor is my wife. We do more'n fancy each other. Which is what too many heteros have been doing and is the reason why its a 50/50 crap-shoot for so many.
Some of you xtians live in such a land of non-reality its a wonder any of you can even navigate real life without imploding.
From what I gather, from your point of view, why would you even think marriage should exist? Or maybe you don't. Why shouldn't partnering be anything more than just having a steady partner, which one can easily be broken the next day?

You wish to talk 'reality'? I'm all for it. When a marriage ceremony is performed, the parties involved are questioned as to the authenticity of their 'commitment'. "Happiness" is not really a part of the package. It's nice if it happens, but there's no guarantee. I think this is where you're missing it when you address the "happiness" of the married couple...and their children. Yes, children will probably suffer if the parents are unhappy...to whatever degree depending on the severity. No one ever claimed, that I know of, that a married couple is guaranteed happiness by "staying together". The question becomes....can this 'unhappiness' be dealt with? There are books written...for instance, on how to "rekindle" a romance. Now that may not always be easy, but that's not the ultimate point anyway.

You and I have a certain responsibility in the working world, for instance, to not allow personal 'unhappiness' to interfere where others are involved. If there's a particular problem that is 'causing' "unhappiness", the solution is not to pretend we are happy, but to address, and hopefully resolve the problem. Now employment usually doesn't even require the same type of commitment marriage does, yet many realize it's in their best interest to 'remain' in an undesirable working environment....at least for awhile, rather than seek immediate escape.....

continued........
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#183 Feb 10, 2013
In addition, marriage is almost universally (if not absolutely universally) before "God". This is because there's this understanding that a commitment made in the presence of God, where He is included in/as a part of the commitment, has a very strong implication to it. The same principle holds true in the court of law. When the judge/court wants absolute truth (the idea of truth being relative seems to absent in any court no matter how secular), they will demand truth with God being a witness....requiring one placing their hand on a Bile "swearing before God", God being "the judge". It's interesting how universal these concepts are, no matter what religion holds the majority rule. The 'understanding' of one universal ultimate judge...God.

You may say this is some psychological fallibility of man, but this concept in marriage and the court of law is well outside of the boundaries of fundamentalist Christianity. You stated that Christians are "whacked" (I'm not protesting this by the way as you are expressing your opinion), but you really have to pretty much address the majority of the world as "Whacked", suggesting that you and perhaps your small circle of similar belief status are the only true sane ones ("if I ruled the world, removed God from this and that, everything would be better").

And getting back to the children issue involving committed parents, again,'pretending' to be happy is not the solution. Addressing, dealing with the problem is the solution.

And the children who may resolve that it would have been better if mom and dad divorced, are probably going to be adults...not children. And the irony is that even those who come to that conclusion, would only be speculating.

Young children have strong standards. They 'may' be somewhat selfish (feed me, hold me, burp me), but it's "rightful" demands towards the responsibility of their parents. They are 'not' interested in how mom may be more compatible with Mr. Smith the neighbor next door than dad. Or in how dad may be more happier with his secretary. "Mommy/daddy hugging/kissing each other....good"...Mommy hugging/kissing Mr. Smith....not good..something wrong. Daddy hugging kissing secretary...not good. And those kids are "right".
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#184 Feb 10, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
2. Personally, I think the Gay community fought the wrong battles, thats why the "War" is so much harder. Personally, I think both the gay community and singles, should be seeking to remove the legal perks of marriage on the grounds of discrimination. Marrieds should not get tax breaks that are not some how matched for the single - or the gay community that seeks civil marriage. neither should the marrieds have this "special covenant" with the Medical and Insurance industries. The patient is in charge of who can see him/her in a hospital, or gain information, or be in on medical decisions and be the beneficiary of insurance pay-outs. Not the courts!
My biggest problem with the Xtian POV on this matter is the influence/impact on civil legal matters! Of course there's the intruding into the bedroom and personal love lives of those they dont like.) but its more about trying to Legally define marriage so to have an impact on civil, legal and economic matters - that are simply NONE of any Religions and/or their adherents business to object to on pure faith based grounds.
Thats my issue with this whole issue.
These various 'other' covenants you mentioned are kind of 'separate' issues in my opinion. I'm not saying they, in and of themselves, are not valid issues. But I think this all goes back to my prior question as to why would you even think marriage should exist at all, if you even do? What type of commitment 'should' a married couple of any kind make? Should marriage be just some trivial ceremony a couple can take or leave? Should I get a tattoo of a skull, or one with my girlfriends name on it? Should I/we vacation in Hawaii or Yosemite. Should we go through wedding vows or should we just date/move in with each other, etc.? Why don't we flip a coin on each of these questions?
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#185 Feb 10, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>

1. No we dont have any info on these impacts, but when did that stop society from doing anything? Come on now...lets be realistic. Sounds like the same resistance POV of racists. "Whats gonna happen to the children, white children, if they associate with children of other colors?" (oh I don't know, become more tolerant and less racist!?! which is exactly what we see!)

2. Funny, but if "we" tried to implement a study on the effects of teaching children non-science in sciences class, and the long term effects on their intelligence and competitiveness in the market place - you Anti-evo, ID, folks would have a cow.
We dont need to do any more studies to know that poverty, and poor education leads to more teen pregnancy and therefore higher abortion rates.
But damn if we can get Xtians to put that KNOWN known, and oft studied matter, on their agenda to combat abortion. Nope, they just want to outlaw it on some silly grounds of re-gaining the blessings of their God!
And if the studies were done, and I do think some have been done at this point in our history - I would guess (yes its a guess, but a confident one) that a Gay couple would have the same odds of screwing up or not their kids as any hetero couple.

3. I dont think a child gives a royal shyte what their parents do in the bedroom, as long as they know its mutual, there is respect and love and that they are loved by their parents.
Make things uncomfortable? Embarrass them? Come on, Hetero parents have been doing that for forever...what will it matter if the couple is gay? IMO, it wont matter much at first, then not at all.
All the issues are in the heads of Xtians who make them up in order to bolster their prejudices and intrusion into other peoples lives.
1. The Gay community is the one sexual orientation that base their identity on sexual preference. So much so that they themselves, as well as those on the outside give them symbolic minority status. I myself don't view them that way. The Bible addresses sin. And once one moves on, it really doesn't matter what they were/did, just as I don't think it matters what race anyone is.

2. I think it's a mistake to assume that evolution has made people more knowledgeable, or interested in science (or education in general). People's interest will always vary on science, and a lot of the interest in evolution (or evolution vs. creationism) is based on the political/philosophical/religi ous debates. As I stated on a number of occasions, there's a lot of faddish dialogue that's not really based on personal study or interest. A lot of it is repeated verbage from various iconic figures in the media, books, internet.

3. I would disagree with you there. A child's mother or father may have a very 'mutual' affair with a neighbor. I think this discovery by a child would be quite traumatic. Even if mom or dad appeared very happy.

“Jesus=only way into Heaven”

Since: Nov 12

saved by grace through faith

#186 Feb 10, 2013
Great posts Job!!!

“Jesus=only way into Heaven”

Since: Nov 12

saved by grace through faith

#187 Feb 10, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>Why wont you answer questions?
Why are you not angered by polygamy? As practiced by American Xtians.
1. my point was that marriage existed outside of the Judeo-xtian framework and still does. And American Xtians don't own the concept of marriage. Not ever!
How many times have I stated that marriage is between 1 MAN and 1 WOMAN? God established this at the beginning of mankind's existence.(Genesis 2:22-24)
socci

Cameron, MO

#188 Feb 10, 2013

The Biblical marriage is certainly much different than found in practice today.

Today women often have the option of marriage OR going to college &/or work. They no longer are stigmatized for not getting married ASAP as was common just prior to ww2 in the USA, Germany, France and many other EU nations. The loss of our family values is a direct result of the Feminist movement which is of Satan's world govt.

Women decry the notion of no higher education and marriage being expected of them. However women are different than men and do not need to work at all. If they are not going to work they dont need an education as a doctor or lawyer or accountant. Will they take higher education in cooking or sewing? Women dont need to know how to be an engineer unless they are going to work.

While at college the women lose those years when they would have been marries and often find later after school having lost their youth they do not get married at all and have very few children (1 or 2 instead of 3 or 4), if any.

The Feminist movement is worldly, not Biblical.

That women are different from men is not a Muslim or Taliban or Christian notion rather common the world over. Only in the West have the Feminist socialist supplanted previous social conditions.(then spread into Russia, China ect) This all usually starts in the state grammar schools teaching the girls not to get married rather seek higher education; and teen pregnancy is awful, they are told. The parents are conditioned to agree with this. This is why there's so much porn and divorce, due to all the single females.

Dont take this wrong, I'm not coming down on women, there are many male supporters of the Feminist Movement. It was founded by men, not to help women rather to overthrow society and destroy.

“A JOURNEY OF A THOUSAND MILES”

Since: Aug 08

MUST BEGIN WITH A SINGLE STEP!

#189 Feb 10, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>Clearly ND's experiences with women are...shall we say, limited.
Oh......I get it now.......lol!!!

“A JOURNEY OF A THOUSAND MILES”

Since: Aug 08

MUST BEGIN WITH A SINGLE STEP!

#190 Feb 10, 2013
socci wrote:
The Biblical marriage is certainly much different than found in practice today.
Today women often have the option of marriage OR going to college &/or work. They no longer are stigmatized for not getting married ASAP as was common just prior to ww2 in the USA, Germany, France and many other EU nations. The loss of our family values is a direct result of the Feminist movement which is of Satan's world govt.
Women decry the notion of no higher education and marriage being expected of them. However women are different than men and do not need to work at all. If they are not going to work they dont need an education as a doctor or lawyer or accountant. Will they take higher education in cooking or sewing? Women dont need to know how to be an engineer unless they are going to work.
While at college the women lose those years when they would have been marries and often find later after school having lost their youth they do not get married at all and have very few children (1 or 2 instead of 3 or 4), if any.
The Feminist movement is worldly, not Biblical.
That women are different from men is not a Muslim or Taliban or Christian notion rather common the world over. Only in the West have the Feminist socialist supplanted previous social conditions.(then spread into Russia, China ect) This all usually starts in the state grammar schools teaching the girls not to get married rather seek higher education; and teen pregnancy is awful, they are told. The parents are conditioned to agree with this. This is why there's so much porn and divorce, due to all the single females.
Dont take this wrong, I'm not coming down on women, there are many male supporters of the Feminist Movement. It was founded by men, not to help women rather to overthrow society and destroy.
Where do you IDIOTS come up with this crap........most households need both parents working if they plan on having the American dream......or can you not see this?

Women didn't rush to work in the factories during WW2.....THEY WERE ASKED BY THEIR GOVERNMENT TO SUPPORT THE WAR EFFORTS.......and when the war was over and the men were coming home.....THE WOMEN WERE TOLD TO GO BACK AND BE HOUSEWIVES AGAIN......but not wanted to and they fought to keep their jobs.......women were working long before WW2 and they were working in jobs designed for women and in NON-TRADITIONAL CAREERS as well!!!

Right, the Feminist movement was founded by men.....that's a good one......lol......got a link or something to back that claim up?
socci

Cameron, MO

#194 Feb 10, 2013
NorCal Native wrote:
Right, the Feminist movement was founded by men.....that's a good one......lol......got a link or something to back that claim up?

The men are the ones who founded and run marxism. The Feminist Movement is the marxist attack on the family.

www.marxists.org/subject/women/feminists.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist_feminism

book: The Flipside of Feminism

www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/mar/6/hagel...

“A JOURNEY OF A THOUSAND MILES”

Since: Aug 08

MUST BEGIN WITH A SINGLE STEP!

#195 Feb 10, 2013
socci wrote:
<quoted text>
The men are the ones who founded and run marxism. The Feminist Movement is the marxist attack on the family.
www.marxists.org/subject/women/feminists.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist_feminism
book: The Flipside of Feminism
www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/mar/6/hagel...
Two of your links don't really say that men started the Feminist Movement and I don't truly use or read much Wikipedia......but, I do appreciate the links!!!

“ ILKS r kewl ”

Since: Apr 09

Conch republic

#197 Feb 10, 2013
Doc Exposed wrote:
<quoted text>Oh liar freak, you use Wikipedia when it supports your gay nonsense.
You wont be here long! Buh Bye!

“The Topix Legend of "GS8"!”

Since: Sep 10

Yunited States, North America

#198 Feb 10, 2013
Troth for Leogere wrote:
<quoted text>You wont be here long! Buh Bye!
TROTH, I agree Dear, the Admins work swiftly to rid the thread of Murphy and incidentally did you happen to read the job offer to Murphy? I would offer to you however you uncontrolled anger is too much for those shall we say aristocratic in society.
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#199 Feb 10, 2013
Romans Road wrote:
Great posts Job!!!
Thank you Romans Road!

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