Believing
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#225 Nov 13, 2013
Qu_innocence wrote:
<quoted text>The more I look into it... Evolution doesn't appear to be a theory as suggestions claim. It is not supported by facts but by mere guesses based on Darwin's theory of the origin of life and natural selection.
The Theory of Evolution is a grand unifying explanation of an ENORMOUS number of facts chiefly from the accumulated fossil record and the newer DNA record.

ALL OF THE EVIDENCE points squarely at descent with modification by gene mutation, sexual recombination of genes and genetic drift, plus the filtering action of natural selection.

NONE OF THE EVIDENCE points to instant special creation 6000 years ago.

You would know this if 1.) you read something other than fundamentalist Christian attack websites, and 2.) you had an honest, open mind about it.
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#226 Nov 14, 2013
Qu_innocence wrote:
http://mohamedghilan.com/2012/ 03/02/the-theory-i-mean-hypoth esis-of-evolution/
"If you are a scientist, or someone who considers himself rational, and would like to become an outcast, all you need to do is question evolutionary theory. Not only will you be shunned for rejecting such a permeating theory that has become accepted as a fact of science, you will also be viewed as one of those irrational religious crazies that believe the Earth is 6000 years old, or if not..."
At least Mr. Ghilan understands science well enough to know that in science a theory is not just a speculation. However, if you have read the entire article you will notice that his argument against evolution is not a scientific argument (presents evidence to support the position), it is merely a philosophical argument (presents no evidence to support the position). As Mr. Ghilan himself wrote...

"I will admit it. Evolutionary theory is very attractive. On the surface, it seems to be capable of explaining so much. All the observations and collected fossils indicate, as we are told by the holy men in white lab coats, that all life started with a single ancestor, from which all forms of life evolved over a timescale that in spite of our knowledge of it, we find difficult to imagine."

He admits the existence of observations and fossil evidence that indicate the validity of the theory of Evolution but dismisses it on the basis of the absurd idea that all of the scientists (holy men in white coats) are involved in a conspiracy to promote an unsubstantiated theory for some unknown reason and that these scientists maintain this deception by ostracising people like himself who are intelligent enough to see through their schemes.

The fact, however, remains that scientists have provided evidence from several different fields of study to support the Theory of Evolution which does stand up to criticism and creationists like Mr. Ghilan provide nothing but lip service.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#227 Nov 14, 2013
Yes, and you would think that, if evolution were totally wrong and the Bible story interpreted literally into a young, 6000-year-old Earth were correct and true, then...

... ALL the scientific evidence should point directly at that.

...ALL the DNA evidence should tell us plainly that humanity can be traced back to an abrupt beginning 6000 years ago from two single, distinct individuals...

....ALL the geological evidence from the many various types of radiometric dating should all converge on a figure of 6000 years...

....ALL the multitude of fossil evidence should show man and dinosaurs lying together in strata, all of it should suggest only 6000 years of fossilization, which would mean hardly ANY fossils to be found, actually, since it takes so long for things to fossilize..

....etc. etc. etc.

But all the evidence points AWAY from that idea and TOWARD the idea of a 4.6 billion year old earth and evolution by descent with modification form common ancestors.

Why would we think that the SCIENCE is wrong, rather than assuming the RELIGIOUS STORY is wrong or misinterpreted or allegorical, etc.?
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#228 Nov 14, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
The problem with the experiences with Allah specifically is the 'lack' of proclaimed experiences among Muslims. I can identify 'personally' with the experience of Paul because I have similar experiences (albeit my walk as a Christian does not compare to Paul's).
If I understand you correctly you don’t think Muslims claim to have personal experiences with their “God” to compare to Muhammad’s claimed experience. I think you are mistaken.
“The individual [Muslim] experiences the light of faith, which God casts into the core of his or her being, as a personalized gift…an inward personal experience more or less transitory as an event but enduring in relevance…The term includes much more than ecstatic experience, but it does not rule out experiences that are usually associated with the "great mystics" of any religious tradition.”– John renard Ph.D. in Islamic studies in 1978 from Harvard University
Job wrote:
As far as how one goes about distinguishing which experiences are real, there may be a number of ways. One of the obvious ways, particularly in the free world, is to study literature. And yes, that will include Christian literature, professions from believers, that are generally avoided by skeptics. If one only reads anti-Christian literature (evilbible.con, etc.), they are obviously not interested in finding God...or only interested in God if He meets their personal conditions.
So you think reading about other claimed “Christian” religious experiences will help you distinguish a real religious experience from imagination. Since you would have no way of knowing whether the experiences that you are reading about are real or imagination it may well only serve to strengthen your belief that an imaginary experience is real. Would a Hindu reading about other claimed “Hindu” religious experiences be verifying the reality of his/her experience or only reinforcing an imaginary experience?
Job wrote:
Obviously much of the world is not free, and lacks access to unrestricted literature. One other option is to seek God in a more unilateral way without any influence of literature, outside human opinion, etc., which for convenience sake I will call prayer.
Devout Muslims pray 5 times a day
Job wrote:
The question however needs to be asked, do 'you' want to find God? From what I gathered from a prior statement of yours, you don't. You don't want to waste time seeking something that doesn't exist...or something to that effect. That would tell me that your question is merely 'circular'. You're stuck on the merry-go-round of "no god exists because there are different gods/beliefs". You're attempting to make a point that swimming pools don't exist to people who are swimming laps.
I have observed that many people today and throughout history believe and have believed they found god and squandered their one and only lives chasing their own imaginations. If there is a “God” I’m sure that “He/She/It” can be found in the real world and that’s where I choose to live.
Punisher

Tuckahoe, NY

#229 Nov 14, 2013
Qu_innocence wrote:
http://mohamedghilan.com/2012/ 03/02/the-theory-i-mean-hypoth esis-of-evolution/
"If you are a scientist, or someone who considers himself rational, and would like to become an outcast, all you need to do is question evolutionary theory. Not only will you be shunned for rejecting such a permeating theory that has become accepted as a fact of science, you will also be viewed as one of those irrational religious crazies that believe the Earth is 6000 years old, or if not..."
Not true...one can question it, but one must be rational and provide a sound and reasoned POV as to why. Not just Goddidit!

Many do Q it, but its typically parts of it...like did a animal or dinosaur, etc look this way or another way...was there a true ocean covering an area, or was it really a large lake..etc...

Thats why the story keeps unfloding and tightening up as the deacdes past, someone questions a part of it, and go looking to see if they can support their idea or not. Many have...that's why there was a time not long ago when many fossil remains in most museums were "re-built" to better suit the actual anatomy of the skeleton! Because we know more about physiology, etc...have better ways to model a skeleton on computers, etc. Instead of relying on the older guesswork or in some cases a Biblically induced POV that dinos were bumbling, low to the ground, clumsy monsters...

Many scientists said no human would ever achieve assited flight! Wrong! Said that No human would ever go to the bottom of the seas surface. Wrong! Scientists said No human would ever leave the planet. Wrong! And come back! Wrong!

Whats funny about your POV is that should someone Q your sully book of myths, and question some of the really weak Doctrines that have been passed down thru nothing but Imperial decree, or Church Traditions...you have a fit! Where Science has and continues to evolve, to shed its mistakes and seek to tighten it all up.

The best you folks have is a late 1800's POV that the Bible is inerrant! Which spawned the ridiculous TRADITION of FUNDAMENTALISM! All in reaction to it being challenged by science!

You need to learn how to think in a reality based world.
Punisher

Tuckahoe, NY

#230 Nov 14, 2013
Gillette wrote:
Yes, and you would think that, if evolution were totally wrong and the Bible story interpreted literally into a young, 6000-year-old Earth were correct and true, then...
... ALL the scientific evidence should point directly at that.
...ALL the DNA evidence should tell us plainly that humanity can be traced back to an abrupt beginning 6000 years ago from two single, distinct individuals...
....ALL the geological evidence from the many various types of radiometric dating should all converge on a figure of 6000 years...
....ALL the multitude of fossil evidence should show man and dinosaurs lying together in strata, all of it should suggest only 6000 years of fossilization, which would mean hardly ANY fossils to be found, actually, since it takes so long for things to fossilize..
....etc. etc. etc.
But all the evidence points AWAY from that idea and TOWARD the idea of a 4.6 billion year old earth and evolution by descent with modification form common ancestors.
Why would we think that the SCIENCE is wrong, rather than assuming the RELIGIOUS STORY is wrong or misinterpreted or allegorical, etc.?
like this -

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/13/world/asia/aust...

But we all know that the Fundys will say its the work of Satan!
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#231 Nov 15, 2013
Big Al wrote:
1. <quoted text>
If I understand you correctly you don’t think Muslims claim to have personal experiences with their “God” to compare to Muhammad’s claimed experience. I think you are mistaken.
“The individual [Muslim] experiences the light of faith, which God casts into the core of his or her being, as a personalized gift…an inward personal experience more or less transitory as an event but enduring in relevance…The term includes much more than ecstatic experience, but it does not rule out experiences that are usually associated with the "great mystics" of any religious tradition.”– John renard Ph.D. in Islamic studies in 1978 from Harvard University
<quoted text>

2. So you think reading about other claimed “Christian” religious experiences will help you distinguish a real religious experience from imagination. Since you would have no way of knowing whether the experiences that you are reading about are real or imagination it may well only serve to strengthen your belief that an imaginary experience is real. Would a Hindu reading about other claimed “Hindu” religious experiences be verifying the reality of his/her experience or only reinforcing an imaginary experience?
<quoted text>

3. Devout Muslims pray 5 times a day
<quoted text>

4. I have observed that many people today and throughout history believe and have believed they found god and squandered their one and only lives chasing their own imaginations.

5. If there is a “God” I’m sure that “He/She/It” can be found in the real world

6. and that’s where I choose to live.
1. I'm sorry, I might be missing something here. Here is your quote:
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
And if Muslims examine the evidence they will find that there is only the word of Muhammad for his experience with Gabriel just as if you examine the evidence for Paul's experience with Jesus you will find only Paul's word for it.
Is John Renard stating that Muslims have experiences with Gabriel?

2. No, what I was saying was 'one' of the ways that someone comes to the conclusion that God exists is to study various literate, sometimes from multiple religions. They don't merely search for quotes to reinforce their viewpoint. And in searching various literature they may include Christian literature (albeit sometimes reluctantly).

3. How do you know that God doesn't 'answer' their prayer? How do you know that the visions of Jesus Christ that Muslims professed to were not connected with their 'prayers'?

4. What do you mean by squander? For instance, do you think that Cory Ten-Boom, Mother Theresa, Peter Hitchens, Martin Luther King squandered/squander their lives?

5. Might jump out from behind a rock?

6. And...you have a right to believe what you wish.
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#232 Nov 15, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
1. I'm sorry, I might be missing something here. Here is your quote:
<quoted text>
Is John Renard stating that Muslims have experiences with Gabriel?
John Renard is claiming that Muslims claim to have personal experiences with the supernatural beings they believe in just as Christians do. Jesus is not considered a supernatural being by Muslims.

“What is true and holy for the individual Muslim? How does he or she perceive God's signs within the self? I can hardly speak about the personal spiritual lives of any one Muslim, let alone all....the rich imagery available to Muslims through Islamic tradition may, nevertheless, give some inkling of the possibilities.”- John Renard
Job wrote:
2. No, what I was saying was 'one' of the ways that someone comes to the conclusion that God exists is to study various literate, sometimes from multiple religions. They don't merely search for quotes to reinforce their viewpoint. And in searching various literature they may include Christian literature (albeit sometimes reluctantly).
We were discussing the reality of personal experiences with the divine. You have no way of knowing that any of the personal experiences that you read about are not merely imagination.

Would a Hindu reading about other claimed “Hindu” religious experiences be verifying the reality of his/her experience or only reinforcing an imaginary experience?
Job wrote:
3. How do you know that God doesn't 'answer' their prayer? How do you know that the visions of Jesus Christ that Muslims professed to were not connected with their 'prayers'?
Very few Muslims convert to Christianity. In your opinion if they do not come to believe that Jesus is lord and savior has “God” answered their prayers?
Job wrote:
4. What do you mean by squander? For instance, do you think that Cory Ten-Boom, Mother Theresa, Peter Hitchens, Martin Luther King squandered/squander their lives?
I mean squander in the sense that people waste their time and efforts praying to, worshiping making sacrifices and building temples and churches to invented imaginary beings and worrying about the actions of imagined demons.

I have no problem with Christians (or Muslims or Hindus) that focus their efforts on the real world by helping the needy in the slums of Calcutta or fighting racial discrimination in this country. These are real world endeavors that benefit people in the real world and belief in an imaginary god or demon is not a necessary motivation.
Job wrote:
5. Might jump out from behind a rock?[/QUOTE
Gazing at the stars every night and systematically recording the positions of the 5 that move differently than all of the rest might lead you to see that the “Creator” created a solar system where the Earth revolves around the Sun, but if you spend all of your time looking for “God” in the pages of an ancient book you might never know that aspect of “God”.
[QUOTE who="Job"]6. And...you have a right to believe what you wish.
That’s what I think.

"Believing is easier than thinking. Hence so many more believers than thinkers." ~Bruce Calvert
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#233 Nov 15, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
1. John Renard is claiming that Muslims claim to have personal experiences with the supernatural beings they believe in just as Christians do. Jesus is not considered a supernatural being by Muslims.
“What is true and holy for the individual Muslim? How does he or she perceive God's signs within the self? I can hardly speak about the personal spiritual lives of any one Muslim, let alone all....the rich imagery available to Muslims through Islamic tradition may, nevertheless, give some inkling of the possibilities.”- John Renard
<quoted text>
1. John Renard is not claiming that Muslims 'claim' to have personal experiences with the supernatural beings they believe in. John Renard is a Muslim. He believes that Muslims 'do' have supernatural experiences with God/god. Either they do or they don't. Do you believe that they do according to John Renard's statement you quoted?

What I originally stated was that the issue of "personal relationship" with God in Islam is just that....an issue:

Although the God of Islam has revealed his will through the prophets, his actual nature remains ultimately unknowable. According to one Islamic scholar, God's will "is all we have, and we have it in perfection in the Qur'an. But Islam does not equate the Qur'an with the nature or essence of God. It is the Word of God, the Commandment of God, the Will of God. But God does not reveal Himself to anyone." {2} In the words of another writer, "only adjectival descriptions are attributed to the divine being, and these merely as they bear on the revelation of God's will for man. The rest remains mysterious."

http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/beliefs/go...

But you will inevitably find references to various types of 'experiences' with God/god. What I find lacking is first hand testimonies from Muslims. I found only one so far that I recall where a Muslim woman was wondering if God is really impersonal as He seems to be. As she was driving, she felt God/god tell her to stop and buy some milk and take it to a specific house she saw along the way, who's inhabitants she didn't know. She decided to go ahead with this apparent 'leading', and when she brought the milk to the door, the man who answered began to cry because they needed milk for the baby.

And quite frankly, I don't doubt that this 'leading', which many Christians have experienced, was actually "God". I don't even doubt that many Muslims experience "God". I don't think they all do any more than I think all professing Christians do. But a good example of a non-Christian experiencing God would be the Roman Centurian Cornelius in the Book of Acts. He obviously prayed to God because he somehow had some sort of perception that God exists. And this lead to the truth of the Gospel of Christ being presented, and embraced by him.
Job

Santa Clara, CA

#234 Nov 15, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>

1. We were discussing the reality of personal experiences with the divine. You have no way of knowing that any of the personal experiences that you read about are not merely imagination.
Would a Hindu reading about other claimed “Hindu” religious experiences be verifying the reality of his/her experience or only reinforcing an imaginary experience?
<quoted text>

2. Very few Muslims convert to Christianity. In your opinion if they do not come to believe that Jesus is lord and savior has “God” answered their prayers?

3. <quoted text>
I mean squander in the sense that people waste their time and efforts praying to, worshiping making sacrifices and building temples and churches to invented imaginary beings and worrying about the actions of imagined demons.

4. I have no problem with Christians (or Muslims or Hindus) that focus their efforts on the real world by helping the needy in the slums of Calcutta or fighting racial discrimination in this country. These are real world endeavors that benefit people in the real world and belief in an imaginary god or demon is not a necessary motivation.
<quoted text>

5. That’s what I think.
"Believing is easier than thinking. Hence so many more believers than thinkers." ~Bruce Calvert
1. So are you saying that 'you' have no way of knowing that any of the personal experiences that you read about are not merely imagination?

2. For one, we don't really know how many Christian converts there are in the Muslim world, because like China has been through the decades, the church is underground. We also don't know how many conversions occur that go unnoticed due to one's life coming to an end. As far as prayer, as I pointed out, not all prayer falls into the definition of "relating with a deity". Do you doubt the Words of Jesus here?

Matthew 6:5
Parallel Verses
New International Version
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.

Jesus seems to think that some prayers are with the sole motivation of impressing other people to come across as "holy". That there's no real sincerity in the prayers themselves.

3. I don't think the people I mentioned obsessed with demons, built temples, built sacrifices; but I believe that they all prayed. Do you think they squandered their time praying?

4. Which Christian do you have a problem with?

5. I have always found it much easier to think than believe.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque, NM

#235 Nov 15, 2013
4. The other ones.
5. Given what you've got to work with, they're one in the same.

NDanger

“Third Eye”

Since: Nov 10

You can't get there from here.

#236 Nov 15, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
like this -
http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/13/world/asia/aust...
But we all know that the Fundys will say its the work of Satan!
What's the work of Satan?
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#237 Nov 15, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
1. John Renard is not claiming that Muslims 'claim' to have personal experiences with the supernatural beings they believe in. John Renard is a Muslim. He believes that Muslims 'do' have supernatural experiences with God/god. Either they do or they don't. Do you believe that they do according to John Renard's statement you quoted?
What I originally stated was that the issue of "personal relationship" with God in Islam is just that....an issue:
Although the God of Islam has revealed his will through the prophets, his actual nature remains ultimately unknowable. According to one Islamic scholar, God's will "is all we have, and we have it in perfection in the Qur'an. But Islam does not equate the Qur'an with the nature or essence of God. It is the Word of God, the Commandment of God, the Will of God. But God does not reveal Himself to anyone." {2} In the words of another writer, "only adjectival descriptions are attributed to the divine being, and these merely as they bear on the revelation of God's will for man. The rest remains mysterious."
http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/beliefs/go...
But you will inevitably find references to various types of 'experiences' with God/god. What I find lacking is first hand testimonies from Muslims. I found only one so far that I recall where a Muslim woman was wondering if God is really impersonal as He seems to be. As she was driving, she felt God/god tell her to stop and buy some milk and take it to a specific house she saw along the way, who's inhabitants she didn't know. She decided to go ahead with this apparent 'leading', and when she brought the milk to the door, the man who answered began to cry because they needed milk for the baby.
And quite frankly, I don't doubt that this 'leading', which many Christians have experienced, was actually "God". I don't even doubt that many Muslims experience "God". I don't think they all do any more than I think all professing Christians do. But a good example of a non-Christian experiencing God would be the Roman Centurian Cornelius in the Book of Acts. He obviously prayed to God because he somehow had some sort of perception that God exists. And this lead to the truth of the Gospel of Christ being presented, and embraced by him.
John Renard is not a Muslim he is a Catholic priest and an Islamic scholar that teaches at St. Louis University in the Department of Theological Studies.

“A recurrent theme in much Islamic spiritual literature is the difficulty of reconciling the notion of an utterly transcendent God with the desire for a personal relationship between Creator and creature.…the important point is that the tradition allows considerable scope for the believer who longs to know, and be known by, God more intimately.… it does not rule out experiences that are usually associated with the ‘great mystics’ of any religious tradition.”- John Renard

Yes I do think Renard is saying that Muslims have similar personal experiences to those of Christians.

My whole point in bringing up Muslims and Hindus is that there are a lot of people that believe in a lot of different deities that claim to have had a personal experience with that deity in some way shape or form. That means either that all gods are real or that a lot of people are mistaking their own imaginations for a personal experience with “God”.
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#238 Nov 15, 2013
Job wrote:
<quoted text>
1. So are you saying that 'you' have no way of knowing that any of the personal experiences that you read about are not merely imagination?
Yes!
Job wrote:
2. For one, we don't really know how many Christian converts there are in the Muslim world, because like China has been through the decades, the church is underground. We also don't know how many conversions occur that go unnoticed due to one's life coming to an end.
According to the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and the World Christian Database as of 2007 Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.
Job wrote:
As far as prayer, as I pointed out, not all prayer falls into the definition of "relating with a deity". Do you doubt the Words of Jesus here?
Matthew 6:5
Parallel Verses
New International Version
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
Jesus seems to think that some prayers are with the sole motivation of impressing other people to come across as "holy". That there's no real sincerity in the prayers themselves.
So are you suggesting that all of the devout Muslims that pray 5 times a day are insincere? Or are you suggesting that only the Muslims who pray 5 times a day that convert to Christianity are sincere? I think the vast majority of Muslims that pray 5 times a day sincerely will never accept Jesus as their lord and savior.
Job wrote:
3. I don't think the people I mentioned obsessed with demons, built temples, built sacrifices; but I believe that they all prayed. Do you think they squandered their time praying?
Yes! There is no evidence that prayer helps with real world endeavors.
"I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs." ~ Frederick Douglass, escaped slave
Job wrote:
4. Which Christian do you have a problem with?
I have a problem with those Christians who would impose their fantasies on others like creationists who think that the Judeo-Christian creation myth should be taught alongside real world science.
Job wrote:
5. I have always found it much easier to think than believe.
…then haven’t done much thinking anyone that has knows that thinking correctly takes effort while believing simply requires the will to believe.
Saul 25

Greenbrier, AR

#239 Nov 15, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm sure you believe those stories from the Bible about "God" revealing himself in a sensory manner but atheists, agnostics and those of other faiths do not? What is it that makes a Christian believe while others do not. What is it that makes Christians believe those stories from the Bible but not believe similar stories from other holy books.
I knew a little about God but not much(never read the bible),at a small church meeting I simply asked God what He wanted me to do. I was immediately engulfed in love and heard a voice by pass my physical ears and speak directly to my mind. His first words were,you must accept my Son as your Savior. He then went on to explain that heaven and hell were real and that in my present condition I was headed for hell. After I came forward and asked Jesus to be my Savior, the next day God spoke to my mind but now from my abdomen area and He was saying,you are my child and I love you. The God of the bible is God and we are saved by accepting Jesus as Savior.
Big Al

Hibbing, MN

#240 Nov 16, 2013
Saul 25 wrote:
<quoted text> I knew a little about God but not much(never read the bible),at a small church meeting I simply asked God what He wanted me to do. I was immediately engulfed in love and heard a voice by pass my physical ears and speak directly to my mind. His first words were,you must accept my Son as your Savior. He then went on to explain that heaven and hell were real and that in my present condition I was headed for hell. After I came forward and asked Jesus to be my Savior, the next day God spoke to my mind but now from my abdomen area and He was saying,you are my child and I love you. The God of the bible is God and we are saved by accepting Jesus as Savior.
People of many different faiths claim to have had a religious experience similar to yours. Do you think those experiences were real or do think only claimed religious experiences with Jesus are real. If you do not consider other religious experiences real what do think they are?

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque, NM

#241 Nov 16, 2013
Saul 25 wrote:
<quoted text> I knew a little about God but not much(never read the bible),at a small church meeting I simply asked God what He wanted me to do. I was immediately engulfed in love and heard a voice by pass my physical ears and speak directly to my mind. His first words were,you must accept my Son as your Savior. He then went on to explain that heaven and hell were real and that in my present condition I was headed for hell. After I came forward and asked Jesus to be my Savior, the next day God spoke to my mind but now from my abdomen area and He was saying,you are my child and I love you. The God of the bible is God and we are saved by accepting Jesus as Savior.
You're playing with the big boys now. Personal testimony is not evidence.

“Shoot for the stars”

Since: Dec 10

Planet Earth

#242 Nov 16, 2013
Saul 25 wrote:
<quoted text> I knew a little about God but not much(never read the bible),at a small church meeting I simply asked God what He wanted me to do. I was immediately engulfed in love and heard a voice by pass my physical ears and speak directly to my mind. His first words were,you must accept my Son as your Savior. He then went on to explain that heaven and hell were real and that in my present condition I was headed for hell. After I came forward and asked Jesus to be my Savior, the next day God spoke to my mind but now from my abdomen area and He was saying,you are my child and I love you. The God of the bible is God and we are saved by accepting Jesus as Savior.
Don't believe your story!

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#243 Nov 16, 2013
Big Al wrote:
So then you believe that the Bible is the ultimate authority on everything

I never said anything like this.
Big Al wrote:
and that your understanding of it is absolutely accurate because of your diligent study and great intelligence and it is impossible that anything that you believe could be wrong.
So anything based upon an un truth is a Fallacy I think the word is.
Big Al wrote:
"...the word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish." - Albert Einstein

Not sure Einstein said this but I could have an agreement from Einstein on my fundamentals.

Therefore it is that so often insurrections, coming from those high mountains that domineer over the moral horizon, Justice, Wisdom, Reason, Right, built of the purest snow of the ideal after a long fall from rock to rock, after having reflected the sky in their transparency, and been swollen by a hundred affluents, in the majestic path of triumph, suddenly lose themselves in quagmires, like a California river in the sands.
Big Al wrote:
"I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one...I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being." - Albert Einstein
Einstein again?

The onward march of the human race requires that the heights around it should blaze with noble and enduring lessons of courage. Deeds of daring dazzle history, and form one class of the guiding lights of man. They are the stars and coruscations from that great sea of electricity, the Force inherent in the people. To strive, to brave all risks, to perish, to persevere, to be true to one's self, to grapple body to body with destiny, to surprise defeat by the little terror it inspires, now to confront unrighteous power, now to defy intoxicated triumph--these are the examples that the nations need and the light that electrifies them.
Big Al wrote:
I think Mr. Einstein's IQ might have been comparable to yours and he also studied and wrote extensively about his beliefs. Why do you think his beliefs were so different from yours?
Like I said I suspect Einstein would have agreed with my fundamentals.
You on the other hand want to put your Beliefs and understandings upon me, but have no idea what I think or believe.

As is evident from your opening sentence, those ARE YOUR BELIEFS not mine.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque, NM

#244 Nov 17, 2013
Earth Child 1 wrote:
<quoted text>Don't believe your story!
His story is believable enough except that part about the voices in his head telling him he should be a sola scriptura evangelical fundamentalist.

On Tuesday night the 'Prayer Group' meets, though I call it the 'Tent Revival', and here's how it goes. First we start with a bunch of songs about the Holy Spirit and a bunch of jumping around. This goes on for about a half hour. Then the preacher preaches for about a half hour. It's a different preacher every week from a collection of six or eight. Some are better than others and some are very good and some would put me to sleep but that would be impolite. Then the lights go down, the music plays low and someone starts praying. Now I don't know how they pray the way they do; it's not from a script nor does it seem from memory; but with the right kind of music, preaching and prayer they can stir two dozen people into a near frenzy.

Far be it from me to say whether the Holy Spirit is working in that group or they're just being worked into a frenzy. Nevertheless, I'll not deny it is a very moving experience. That said, if they start praying in tongues I start praying in Latim.

Padre's in Mexico City being treated for cancer so the Deacon leads the weekday services and Thursday he asked why we go to the tent revival and apparently none of us got the right answer because he said we go because we are saved and I thought 'What a peculiar thing to say'.

Curiously, I went to confession yesterday which pretty much boiled down to a library book I never returned, Don Quixote de la Mancha in the original 1605 text, and that I get confused and distracted by trivialities, not the least of which is prodigious racks and breathtaking asses, and Father Jim said I was saved.

What do you think of that?

God bless you.

ps: Father Jim said I don't need to return Don Quixote until I finish reading it.

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