Another question from an agnostic about the Jews

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Since: Jun 14

Location hidden

#1 Jun 23, 2014
Greetings:),

I hope that you are doing fine today. I am doing fine.

Guess I'll just jump right in. 1 John 2:22-23 (KJV) says,

"(22)Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.(23)Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also."

Question: If the Jews deny that Jesus is the Messiah, aren't they antichrists? I ask that because I hear so many Christians say that the Jews are the chosen people of God. How can they be the chosen people and be antichrists at the same time?

And for the record, I *do not* hate Jews. I ask this question because I would like to hear some answers to it from Christians. Yes I am an agnostic; does that make *me* an antichrist? I don't think so in my case; maybe I deny Jesus, maybe I don't, but I don't claim to be the chosen of God like the Jews.

So Christians how would you answer this question?

Peace:).
nunnies
Flygerian

Fort Worth, TX

#2 Jun 23, 2014
I think a "jew" would ask you:

"Did our God (the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that is definitively described in what people call the "old testament") say those words?"

Since: Jun 14

Location hidden

#3 Jun 24, 2014
Flygerian wrote:
I think a "jew" would ask you:
"Did our God (the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that is definitively described in what people call the "old testament") say those words?"
Well, I'm an agnostic (I don't believe nor disbelieve in a God, by which I mean some entity that should be worshipped) but Christians believe that the New Testament is God inspired just like the Old Testament is God inspired. I think that they believe that the Holy Spirit or God's Spirit was upon John when he wrote those words.

But anyway, can someone be an antichrist and be a chosen person of God at the same time?
Flygerian

Fort Worth, TX

#4 Jun 24, 2014
nunnies wrote:
<quoted text>
But anyway, can someone be an antichrist and be a chosen person of God at the same time?
Well ignoring that the OT is incompatible with this belief, I guess it would depend on how you define "antichrist" . If it means someone against christ then I think that it can be true. If it means someone against God, then no, I do not think that can be true.
Old GT

Carmel, IN

#5 Jun 25, 2014
nunnies wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, I'm an agnostic (I don't believe nor disbelieve in a God, by which I mean some entity that should be worshipped) but Christians believe that the New Testament is God inspired just like the Old Testament is God inspired. I think that they believe that the Holy Spirit or God's Spirit was upon John when he wrote those words.
But anyway, can someone be an antichrist and be a chosen person of God at the same time?
the purpose of the Bible was to save all human beings from the sin that separates us from God. God used the descendants of Abraham as a vineyard He planted and tended. The vineyard was to bring the Messiah. All the first Christians were Jews. The NT was written by Jews (except Luke and Acts). Sadly, 2/3s of Judah rejected Christ and the salvation then went out to everyone (gentiles). Acts 13:26.
Yes, sadly most Jews are now antiChrist.
Old GT

Carmel, IN

#6 Jun 25, 2014
Flygerian wrote:
I think a "jew" would ask you:
"Did our God (the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that is definitively described in what people call the "old testament") say those words?"
od did say, in Zachariah 13, that at the time of the cross, verse 1, that 2/3s of the land will be cutoff, verse 8 = Romans 11.
Old GT

Carmel, IN

#7 Jun 25, 2014
Problem with my keyboard.
God did say
messianic114

Calgary, Canada

#8 Jun 25, 2014
The only Jews that are chosen are those who are a subject of Messiah's Kingdom. There are Jews today who are preaching the gospel. Gentiles who are in Messiah are grafted in to Israel.
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Num 16:5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.
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We can see from this verse that there were many who were not chosen as the ground opened up and swallowed them.
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I can't recall a verse that specifically say "all" Jews are chosen. G-d chooses for a purpose and if we don't co-operate with him, he will choose someone else.
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Est 4:14 For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?
QUITTNER on June 26 2014

Toronto, Canada

#9 Jun 26, 2014
RE: Another question from an agnostic about the Jews
..... There are many belief systems and they have literature for their members. Anyone can write anything. Libraries are full of writings. Christians write about Jews and Jews write about Christians. So What?
Flygerian

Fort Worth, TX

#10 Jun 26, 2014
Old GT wrote:
<quoted text>od did say, in Zachariah 13, that at the time of the cross, verse 1, that 2/3s of the land will be cutoff, verse 8 = Romans 11.
Im not sure what that has to do with people that believe Jews are supposed to place their faith in Jesus over the God of their ancestors

Since: Jun 14

Location hidden

#11 Jun 27, 2014
Old GT wrote:
<quoted text>the purpose of the Bible was to save all human beings from the sin that separates us from God. God used the descendants of Abraham as a vineyard He planted and tended. The vineyard was to bring the Messiah. All the first Christians were Jews. The NT was written by Jews (except Luke and Acts). Sadly, 2/3s of Judah rejected Christ and the salvation then went out to everyone (gentiles). Acts 13:26.
Yes, sadly most Jews are now antiChrist.
Peace Old GT,

Paul said that the crucifixion of Jesus is a stumblingblock to the Jews. So I don't know about this "2/3's of the Jews rejected." From Paul's words it sounds like nearly all of the Jews rejected Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:23.)

(Two Non-Rhetorical questions:)(1)Why does it matter if all the first Christians were Jews and the NT was allegedly mostly written by Jews if the Jews don't believe in Jesus? and (2)Why is there this constant glorification of the Jews by some Christians when the Jews deny that Jesus is the Messiah (1 John 2:22-23?)

All Jews aren't God's people (Romans 9:6: "...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:".) God's people are Christ and those who believe in Christ whether Jew or not (Gal. 3:16, 29.)

Peace.
nunnies
messianic114

Calgary, Canada

#12 Jun 29, 2014
nunnies wrote:
<quoted text>
Peace Old GT,
Paul said that the crucifixion of Jesus is a stumblingblock to the Jews. So I don't know about this "2/3's of the Jews rejected." From Paul's words it sounds like nearly all of the Jews rejected Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:23.)
(Two Non-Rhetorical questions:)(1)Why does it matter if all the first Christians were Jews and the NT was allegedly mostly written by Jews if the Jews don't believe in Jesus? and (2)Why is there this constant glorification of the Jews by some Christians when the Jews deny that Jesus is the Messiah (1 John 2:22-23?)
All Jews aren't God's people (Romans 9:6: "...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:".) God's people are Christ and those who believe in Christ whether Jew or not (Gal. 3:16, 29.)
Peace.
nunnies
.
Why it matters is that G-d when to those "chosen" to reveal his will to the world
.
Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
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Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
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and to those to whom the promises were made first. After the rejection, they were rejected.
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1Sa 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.
.
As to why certain Christians glorify Jews, I suppose they will say they are blessing Israel to receive a promise.
.
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
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It also may be a way in their minds to make up for all the anti-semitism throughout the ages.

“Right Makes might”

Since: Dec 13

Location hidden

#14 Jun 29, 2014
Old GT wrote:
<quoted text>

the purpose of the Bible was to save all human beings from the sin that separates us from God.

God used the descendants of Abraham as a vineyard He planted and tended. The vineyard was to bring the Messiah. All the first Christians were Jews. The NT was written by Jews (except Luke and Acts). Sadly, 2/3s of Judah rejected Christ and the salvation then went out to everyone (gentiles). Acts 13:26.
Yes, sadly most Jews are now antiChrist.
The PURPOSE of the Bible was to create a canon, in one book for correct doctrinal development and then teaching of the Church. To eliminate the extra stuff in circulation among the communities that was causing so much discord among the Churches. Its was created for political reasons, as well as Religious ones, but it was the Politics that got it done. Imperial decree got the Bible canon done, and the winners were the ones with the better political connections.

Faith, belief (and works) is what saves, not the Bible. The Bible has no powers, its not a book of incantations, or spells that one reads in order to be saved. The Bible is a book to find what The Church committee decided was only to be used for developing and then teaching proper doctrines. That was the PURPOSE of the Bible.

“Right Makes might”

Since: Dec 13

Location hidden

#15 Jun 29, 2014
nunnies wrote:
<quoted text>
Peace Old GT,
Paul said that the crucifixion of Jesus is a stumblingblock to the Jews. So I don't know about this "2/3's of the Jews rejected."

----.>>>>> From Paul's words it sounds like nearly all of the Jews rejected Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:23.)

(Two Non-Rhetorical questions:)(1)Why does it matter if all the first Christians were Jews and the NT was allegedly mostly written by Jews if the Jews don't believe in Jesus? and (2)Why is there this constant glorification of the Jews by some Christians when the Jews deny that Jesus is the Messiah (1 John 2:22-23?)
All Jews aren't God's people (Romans 9:6: "...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:".) God's people are Christ and those who believe in Christ whether Jew or not (Gal. 3:16, 29.)
Peace.
nunnies
As well they should, if they use their holy books, and not the ones of that upstart sect, who had no books of their own at that time. There was no NT for the proto-Christians to rely on. There was no NT for them, but the Jews had their scripture, albeit not fully canonized either, but they had something to read/teach from that made it as plain as the mezuzah on their door jambs that Jesus was NOT the messiah.

You have to look at the reality on the ground at that time, not what came to be many years, and centuries later. 1. These proto-Christians had no holy scriptures. Only oral teachings from a random and disparate bunch of itinerant preachers. 2. The Jews had their scriptures, of which no one sect of Jews agreed completely on yet...but in regards to their Messiah, they agreed, and when referring to their "books" it was plain that Jesus was not the Messiah. As he failed to fulfill many of the set in stone requirements, not the least of which was no messiah would hang from a tree/cross. 3. in their attempts to legitimize their new beliefs, the proto-Christians borrowed and stole and reinterpreted most of the Jewish texts to suit their needs. Both to find continuity (for the Jews who where their first audiences) and to gain some type of ancient lineage that the Romans would better respect.(fact, the Romans respected old over new and the Christians were seen as new and dangerous, while the Jews had a an ancient lineage that they respected enough to let them worship, as long as they paid Rome its due. The Christians rejected the Jewish pragmatism altogether.)

The reality is, you can not look at those early days and view it from a modern POV. The proto-Christians were doing everything on the fly, had no actual doctrines, nothing was institutionalized yet - which was completely different from the Jews. They had continuity, while the proto-Christians were scrambling to create it, the Jews had scripture, while the proto-Christians had nothing remotely like it, the Jews had established traditions and rituals, while the proto-Christians had but one tradition/ritual ("communion" and even that was a mish-mash of what was practiced and believed).

A devout practicing Jew who knew even some of their actual scripture had to reject Jesus as the messiah based on scripture alone. Why do you think the Jesus-story sold better with gentiles (mostly poor and marginalized, BTW) than Jews? The gentiles had nothing to refer to, to tell them that Jesus couldnt be the Messiah. They took the stories on face value.
QUITTNER on June 29 2014

Toronto, Canada

#16 Jun 29, 2014
RE: Another question from an agnostic about the Jews
..... As I understand it, Jesus was a social reformer who helped many people, but he never was God. And the Jews rejected, and still reject, the stories and their believers that Jesus was ever divine.
messianic114

Calgary, Canada

#17 Jun 29, 2014
QUITTNER on June 29 2014 wrote:
RE: Another question from an agnostic about the Jews
..... As I understand it, Jesus was a social reformer who helped many people, but he never was God. And the Jews rejected, and still reject, the stories and their believers that Jesus was ever divine.
./
And that is why they have lost their "chosen" status. They rejected not only their Messiah, but the scriptures and traditions that told who he would be.
Old GT

Carmel, IN

#18 Jun 29, 2014
nunnies wrote:
<quoted text>
Peace Old GT,
Paul said that the crucifixion of Jesus is a stumblingblock to the Jews. So I don't know about this "2/3's of the Jews rejected." From Paul's words it sounds like nearly all of the Jews rejected Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:23.)
(Two Non-Rhetorical questions:)(1)Why does it matter if all the first Christians were Jews and the NT was allegedly mostly written by Jews if the Jews don't believe in Jesus? and (2)Why is there this constant glorification of the Jews by some Christians when the Jews deny that Jesus is the Messiah (1 John 2:22-23?)
All Jews aren't God's people (Romans 9:6: "...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:".) God's people are Christ and those who believe in Christ whether Jew or not (Gal. 3:16, 29.)
Peace.
nunnies
Israel was God's plan to save all the world, Genesis 12:3.
Hidden until preached by Peter with Holy Spirit in Acts 2.
Many Christians don't understand that was coming of the kingdom with power,
The kingdom is spiritual, 1 Peter 2:4-10.
there are many antiChrists, as you can see.
The Seven Spirits of God

San Antonio, TX

#19 Jun 29, 2014
Old GT wrote:
<quoted text>Israel was God's plan to save all the world, Genesis 12:3.
Hidden until preached by Peter with Holy Spirit in Acts 2.
Many Christians don't understand that was coming of the kingdom with power,
The kingdom is spiritual, 1 Peter 2:4-10.
there are many antiChrists, as you can see.
Hear the word of the Lord concerning
you and your family.

Every blessing that you and your family take for granted and do not use to bless the name of the Lord, it shall be taken from you and them.

A space of time has been granted to you and and your family, to repent and take the blessings of the Lord, that have been given to you and them to bless the name of the Lord, that you do not use to bless the name of the Lord. To take them and bless the name of the Lord.

And when that space of time, that you and your family have been granted, has ended, if you and your family have not repented and taken all of these blessings of the Lord that the Lord has given to you and your family, to bless the name of the Lord, and blessed the name of the Lord with all of them. They will be taken from you and your family and given to another who will
bring forth the fruit of righteousness.

If you and your family do repent and do take the blessings of the Lord that He has given to you to bless the name of the Lord, and do bless the name of the Lord with them, as long as you continue to do so, they shall not depart from you. But if you return to your old ways and leave off from using the blessings of the Lord, to bless the name of the Lord, they shall depart from
you and your family, and be given to another to being
forth the fruit of righteousness.

It is written....

the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away;
blessed be the name of the LORD.

It is written....

And whatsoever ye do in word or deed,
do all in the name of the Lord Jesus,
giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

It is written....

Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
messianic114

Calgary, Canada

#20 Jun 29, 2014
Scurge wrote:
.
<quoted text>
These proto-Christians had no holy scriptures.
.
Certainly they had holy scriptures, the early believers were all Jews and as such had the TNK as holy scripture.
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
Jas 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Mar 15:28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
Mat 2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
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In a sampling of the refernces to scripture by the "proto-Christians" shows that they all reference the scriptures. Your statement needs to be supported by fact, not assertion.
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<quoted text>
You have to look at the reality on the ground at that time, not what came to be many years, and centuries later.
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I would say we need to look at both the time at hand and subsequent events. Here is a sampling of Jewish expectations and history of the time:
Our Rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot [‘For the Lord’] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-coloured strap become white; nor did the westernmost light shine; and the doors of the Hekal would open by themselves Sanhedrin 99a
.
Tradition of Elijah - The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation;37 two thousand years the Torah flourished;38 and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era,39 but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost. Sanhedrin 97A
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Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
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Said Rab: All the appointed times for the appearance of the Messiah have already ceased.
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Since the time appointed for the Messiah is past what conclusions can we draw?
1. There will be no Messiah?
2. The Messiah came and they didn't recognize him?
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Since we can see the result of the rejection of their Messiah, many signs(see above) were given to Israel to repent, but they didn't.
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God's grace and arm is still extended to the Jew if he will hear the voice of G-d which is in the scriptures they already acknowledge.
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Conclusion: Yeshua is the Messiah, and he is because not only does he fit the biblical description, but also no one else can be the Messiah since the appointed time is past.
QUITTNER on June 30 2014

Toronto, Canada

#21 Jun 29, 2014
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text>
And that is why they have lost their "chosen" status. They rejected not only their Messiah, but the scriptures and traditions that told who he would be.
..... I haven't seen any proof that God ever chose anyone. Jesus did not, and does not fit the Jewish definition of the word "Messiah". Many thought he would be the expected Messiah but he wasn't. as defined in the Jews' Hebrew Scriptures. The traditions were/are based on speculations and hopes.

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