Hatfields and the McCoys
Posted in the Christian Forum
#1 Jul 20, 2012
otherwise known as the Protestants versus the Catholics - but only the Protys are holding the centuries old grudges.
Looked at like this, we can see its the Protys who are the un-evolved Xtians, the ones who have yet to learn the basic lessons of their Messiah.
#2 Jul 20, 2012
Don't you think you might be generalizing a bit there Pun? I know many 'protys'; and I don't recall any of them who ever expressed anything that would suggest any kind of a grudge against Catholics whatsoever. Many Christians I know identify with those who profess Jesus, Protestant or Catholic.
When you look at American history; do you see a pattern we've followed where there 'has' to be a villainous force? Even during/after WWII, when we were celebrating diversity of American ethnicity via mostly European immigrants; there was still the evil J*ps, Kra*ts, commies, etc. It's part of the American 'psyche' to have an evil force, whether external or internal.
Usually this type of 'suspicion' is associated with Christian conservatives, but I don't see a whole lot of difference with the whole references to fundamentalists being dangerous, responsible for racism, hatred, insanity, etc....
And many of these references to these heroic scientists who are supposedly on the verge of disposing of religion with their discoveries, sound remarkably similar to that overbearing American patriotism that seems to borderline fascism, where one feels they are under suspicion for not having an American flag bumper sticker on their car.
#3 Jul 20, 2012
Full of yourself, aren't you? You, an ex-catholic that hates the fundamentals of the Word of God. You don't even understand it. You're a joke.
#4 Jul 21, 2012
Unlike you who is allegedly filled with your Holy Shyte, er, Spirit...?
Whats so hard to understand? I really dont know why you of all the great minds to have graced us think your Religions fundamentals are so hard to comprehend...? FYI, they're not. They were also made for children remember?
#5 Jul 21, 2012
1. Okay, maybe I used a 4" brush instead of a 2"...my bad.
Point was many, too many, Protys still hold onto anti-Catholicism like it (Reformation and its causes) took place last year, and was an affront to them personally.
Its the same wholly American behaviors that still has so many in the South fighting the Civil War in their rhetoric and oft times actions towards the so called Elitist North and liberal commie Academia.
2. Hows that possible in such a self-professed Xtian Nation?
Do I see a pattern? Uh, yeah! I'm the one most often pointing out those patterns, albeit when they have to do with the American Xtian ethos, but I sure do see the patterns and they are disgusting. And they remain the offspring of sectarian Xtianity, endemic American racism, and large doses of Capitalism and the Market run amok.
But I see that a large reason for the NEED and desires for these Enemies as being a direct influence of American Xtianity.
And this all takes place under the noses of a huge Xtian population that apparently thinks it/they can SIN their fool asses off in this way and still get into heaven! That creating "monsters" is okay as long as its Biblical in tone and nature...as long as these monsters can be drawn in Biblical terms they are not only real, but the vilification and false accusations towards those made into monsters - remains justified and not punishable.
That old expression the devil is in the details, is appropriate here, because American Xtianity seems hell-bent on ignoring the details - mostly out of, IMO, fear. The devil is not in the details, he's in the ignoring of them...which is a Very American, and not only Xtian, thing to do...details schmetails...dont distract us with those...I digress...
3. IMO, there are Xtian conservatives who can at times be a little scary, but than there are the Modern American Xtian Fundamentalists (whom I dont necessarily lump with the above group) and they are really scary - like Taliban sort of crazy scary. Like given the chance/opportunity they'd do some really horrible things to other American citizens in the name of their God. Like true atrocity level stuff...
4. I dont hold that POV. While I respect the progress of "Science", I dont hold it as the source of ultimate solution/s. Certainly one of many avenues that can help us, but not the ONLY source. Contrary to the accusations made about Atheists, I dont worship the Sciences, or their claims...
#6 Jul 21, 2012
The point is that too many American Protys still cling to the grudges of centuries past...they seem to think the same "goings on" are still going on...and by some decree they (Modern American Protys, MAP's) are still directed to fight the RCC and vilify its flock. Which was not what Luther ever set out to do.
Oh, but that's a detail...damn those details...!
This near endemic grudge holding by so many American Protys is the same as what we criticize peoples in other nations who do the same. All the inter-clan or tribal grudges held for thousands of years and that still cause instability and oppression in those regions, we criticize, but too many American Protys are doing the same things re; the RCC and its adherents. Its classic Hatfield and McCoy mentality, which is a classic Southern American attitude - which is fed by Xtian Fundamentalism in its many guises.
And given some of the same leeway as these foreign tribes/clans to exercise their own form of justice, large swaths of American Protys would gleefully persecute other Xtians, especially RC's.
Gonna happen over night? No, but given the right conditions its very likely it would occur suddenly...take the nation by surprise...
#7 Jul 22, 2012
The Hatfield/McCoy syndrome I'm sure exists to some degree. I don't think the grudge is one-sided though. Or one-side far heavier on the balance.
I listen to a fairly conservative Christian radio station, who often broadcast a public service announcement originally addressed to Obama:
The movie "The Passion Of The Christ" was not only produced by a Catholic (Mel Gibson), but starred a professed born-again Christian actor who played the role of Jesus, who is also Catholic. The movie is 'highly' praised among evangelical circles.
Another highly praised Hollywood movie among evangelical Christians is the movie "The Mission". It showed a contrast between a strict/legalistic religious institution (the Roman Catholic church); and an obvious true Christ-loving Christian (a Catholic missionary). And there's an understanding among many evangelicals that these strict/legalistic type of religious institutions exist among protestantism/evangelicalism, and are often addressed/challenged.
#8 Jul 22, 2012
One of the problems with the whole general idea of "problem of religion" is many don't want to include "no religion" as part of the problem (which in reality is a form of religion by association).
You think that evangelical Christianity could somehow perform a 'coup detat' of sorts in our nation. Do you think it's possible that 'persecution' could come about from the "no religion" crowd? Whether it be a gradual leading up to scenario; or it take the nation by surprise?
To be honest, these "Freedom From Religion" folk are rather creepy. They don't (fortunately) boycott funerals like the "WBC". But the "WBC" is deplored by practically everyone. The "FFR" is taken fairly seriously.
And many of the No-religion/anti-religion crowd are not rational in any sense of the word. There's a lot of scape-goating, no-win/catch-22, etc.
Since: Jul 11
Fargo, North Dakota
#9 Jul 22, 2012
Now that you've made that accusation, perhaps you can give some examples of how the ""no-religion/anti-r eligion crowd are not rational in any sense of the word"".
My contention is, religious folks are not rational when they believe in supernatural events they have to take on faith because they are written in an ancient book. Then these religious folks like yourself say, those who doesn't believe it by way of faith are irrational..
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
That verse is what you base your hope on and the only problem with it is this.-- It's irrational.-- When a person has faith in something they hope for, it is evidence of NOTHING other than, they hope it will come true..
Since: Jul 11
Fargo, North Dakota
#10 Jul 22, 2012
Still judging people I see..The bible says judge not or you will be judged..It also says, you will know Jesus flock by their fruits..You go around judging people which means you are not one of Jesus flock. This is the evidence you're a wolf in sheep's clothing on your way to the christian hell..Good luck with that!!
#11 Jul 23, 2012
I think you're talking about something different than what I am. I'm 'not' stating that atheists (or your average non-religious person) is irrational.
By "no religion/'anti'-religion" , I'm referring to activists like "Freedom 'From' Religion". And even then, I used the term 'many' instead of 'all'. Did you take a look at the link I provided?
That being said, you've taken the verse you used out of context. That verse refers to heroes of the faith who believed what God 'promised'. It had nothing to do with the existence of God. They 'knew' God existed. It was the 'promises' they didn't see.
The Bible actually encourages belief that God exists 'because' of the evidence we 'can' see that is provided. It takes more faith to believe that God 'doesn't' exist.
"One who claims to be a skeptic of one set of beliefs is actually a true believer in another set of beliefs." - Phillip E. Johnson
Since: Jul 11
Fargo, North Dakota
#12 Jul 23, 2012
Sorry for the misunderstanding..With that said, I am an activist against all religions because they are the cause for most of the violence in human history. There are just as many good moral living non-religious people as there are religious people. This means the world would be better off without religion.
Yes but wasn't I impressed..
One thing I learned a long time ago is the excuses christians use to explain away the the insanity of the what the bible says. Saying something is taken "out of context" like you you just did, is an excuse used quite often..
Nevertheless, I will back up my prior statement with another verse that says the same thing concerning faith.
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved,--through faith-- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
Both this verse an and the other one, are not talking about faith in God a as you say. These verses are in the chriatian bible and talking about the "christian god"
The difference between a christian and a non-believer is this. A christian has to believe in Christianity by way of FAITH. The non-believer doesn't need faith, because they are 100% sure their belief is correct. Why, because it's based on solid verifiable evidence in the natural world we live in.
Really, what "evidence can we see that is provided" that gives a rational person a reason to believe the christian god exists?
My user name is misleading, I am not a skeptic regarding christianity, I am an
#13 Jul 23, 2012
As you might expect I totallu disagree with the line about it being harder to not believe than to believe. In a past world where superstition and the superstitious "arts" thrived and was a part of daily/hourly life - yeah, maybe. But not now.
Its no effort whatsoever to disbelieve. The only true effort OMO, is when you get to the point of not believing, making the move to actually feel it and live it. Most atheists I know struggled a little in giving up the Faith - but mainly because of all the "accessories." Once they got to the point of actual disbelief following thru was easy...its all the extra cr/p that causes many to linger...like How Will Family react? What about the Neighbors, or Co-workers? What about my still faith-filled partner, etc, etc...
Like I have said many times - disbelief requires none of the "maintenance" that belief does...so its not hard at all.
Yes I do believe another set of beliefs - they just dont involve Super-beings and magic and Divine intervention on any individuals behalf...
Lets be honest, its perfectly allowable to take Bible passages out of context as there are NO rules about it, nothing in the Bible discusses such things and there are no, "No Out of Context" Doctrines either...and the one in question has always been used as it was by the other Poster. Its very often isolated and used that way...
In a way you sort of inferred that "activists" are irrational...its was not a leap...
#14 Jul 23, 2012
totallu = totally
OMO = IMO
#15 Jul 23, 2012
Not a coup de'tat...but more a concerted effort to bring the religion and faith back to the Individual and out from being more about means to focus on Public Action - in the form of Believers being so damn accusatory and focused on things outside their own Spiritual journey.
Will ones faith bleed over into their concerns for the community, etc..? Of course, but there truly needs to be - IMO - a serious pull-back from Xtians and Churches and such being so politically active in wishing to mainly get the Legal system to align with the Bible. And for Individuals to take the true responsibility of focusing on themselves - seriously focus - and away from all the finger-pointing at those they deem in their way of being better Xtians.
IMO, Xtianty in this nation, as practiced and preached, has lost the truly individual component - in favor of the aggressive "get everyone in line" component.
I think persecution can come from all peoples, no matter their beliefs, or not - its just that the record has a great many more Religious persecuting others than those others. Be it in a large format - like a Nation, or province - or in smaller more concentrated ways like in communities and such...
#16 Jul 23, 2012
Well we now know that Gibson is an avowed anti-Semite, so while the movie was good...the spirit behind it is sort of in question. Not sure why its relevant either...
Have you not caught the anti-Catholicism fever around here? It certainly makes its footprint on the threads...
Funny story, while I was living in New Orleans many moons ago...I was dating a woman and for a holiday she took me home (out of state to a more northern Southern state) and when asked about my family, etc and her parents found out I was from Catholic upbringing, they cringed...but when they later found out I was an atheist - they were better with that than the Catholicism. The reason? I was told that as an Atheist I could still be helped, but if I was a practicing Catholic I was certainly lost.
#17 Jul 24, 2012
I don't know, but this "American psyche" is obviously not relegated to religion/Christianity. Whatever defective behavior, and evil associated with religion/Christianity has been/is practiced by 'non/anti-religion'.
We're not talking about a potential moral replacement when we're talking liberals and non/anti-religion. Quite the contrary as a matter of fact.
#18 Jul 24, 2012
1. Do you 'really' believe that religion makes otherwise 'good' people 'bad'?
As far as violence is concerned, most of recorded world history involves religion. However, in a very short period of time, we've seen how ugly 'anti-religion' can be. The communists, including the Khmer Rouge, has made up for the many years of religious related violence.
Another problem with your suggestion is that there's no way religion, let alone Christianity is going to be removed without force. Some sort of dictatorship. If the Bible (and any religious artifacts) is banned for instance, we're looking at a "Big Brother Is Watching You" scenario. Just as the during the "Red Scare", non-communists were placed under suspicion (Lucille Ball, etc.), Christophobia could place even atheists under suspicion simply for keeping a sentimental religious artifact passed down through generations (and an informer reports it). Or, that atheist who just has to have every single album Bob Dylan put out, including his three Christian albums, someone reports seeing him purchase them through a black market, etc.
2. I didn't initially ask you if you saw it in hopes it would impress you; but give an example of what I was discussing.
But while we're on the subject, they (the FFR) are a perfect example of 'irrational' thinking. They want a statue of Jesus removed, apparently because it turns their stomach. The statue is sentimental to war veterans, and is a meeting point for skiers. The FFR claims (as I've heard) that the Bible should have a disclaimer reading (paraphrasing) "hazardous to health". If they, or a group like them came into power, the Bible would be outlawed. And we'd have a 'dictatorship' plain and simple.
Most professed fundamentalist Christians probably do little to no evangelizing. An FFR type leadership would ensure that little old cookie baking church ladies, and children, would go to prison unless they deny their belief.
Your view is that man is basically good, and when religion came in, men at that point basically went bad. It's quite apparent that this isn't the case. Remove religion/Christianity from our nation/world, and every wickedness under the Sun will 'still' take place.
Getting back to religion and violence, another thread presented the question "is religion the leading cause of racism, hatred, etc.?". I pointed out that 'racism' is highly 'promoted' in a very 'non' religious environment: our secular 'liberal' entertainment industry. And when 'racism' is promoted, so is hatred and "violence".
#19 Jul 24, 2012
1. The Bible wasn't written to be up for interpretation. The authors had a specific 'intent' in their message. To understand it the best we are able, it needs to be studied. You many not 'like' that. But that doesn't change the fact that there is a very specific meaning to the verses. You also can't 'make' verses have a certain meaning just because you want it to mean something to your satisfaction. And since we're talking about what the Bible says, it wouldn't make sense for instance to suggest that someone like Moses, or the Apostle Paul acted out in blind faith in just believing that God exists. They 'knew', from what the 'Bible' states, that God exists. They acted out in faith concerning what the God they already knew existed, promised to them.
2. Can you clarify this a bit here please? My understanding is that you're suggesting that the faith that the Bible refers to is for the 'existence' of God Himself. A blind faith that God 'exists'. At least that's how it came across. The verse you gave in Hebrews, it seemed you were suggesting that is speaks of a blind faith that 'merely' God exists. I'm not really sure what you're talking about here though.
3. Are you stating that you're 100% sure that God doesn't exist?
4. First off, we have to deal with the 'God' issue before getting into the 'Christian God' issue. Do you think that there 'is' a creator (God) in some form involved with our existence?
#20 Jul 24, 2012
1. I think there's a difference between it being 'harder' to believe than taking more 'faith'. Someone can be effortlessly 'comfortable' with any form of belief. My point touches the simplicity of the universe having a 'beginning', as opposed to 'not' having a beginning. The intricacies of life involving an intelligent designer, as opposed to 'chance'.
2. I don't agree that there's 'no' rules. Many passages are very difficult for 'anyone' to understand. That doesn't mean that there isn't a very precise/specific meaning involved. It may seem like a free-for-all because of differing opinions, sometimes 'dogmatic'.
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