Is Paul a false Apostle?
Flygerian

Fort Worth, TX

#1072 Oct 22, 2013
loveismygoal wrote:
<quoted text>could you be more specific ,Im not understanding what your saying ..thanks
Why wouldnt the bare bones be what was said to Moses?

Since: Oct 07

Edinburgh, UK

#1073 Oct 23, 2013
tahoegirl wrote:
loveismygoalYes
most do build their Church and their teachings on Pauls foundation
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another build thereon. But let every man take heed how he build thereupon.
Isn't it funny that Paul uses the word Masterbuilder.
Yes I hadn't noticed that before ,it is the only time that expression is used in scripture...curious indeed .have you any more insight into this?

Since: Oct 07

Edinburgh, UK

#1074 Oct 23, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Why wouldnt the bare bones be what was said to Moses?
Christ is the bare bones of what was said to Moses

Deuteronomy 5:4-6

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

4 The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire, 5 (I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to shew you the word of the Lord: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying, 6 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Numbers 36:5

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

5 And Moses commanded the children of Israel according to the word of the Lord, saying, The tribe of the sons of Joseph hath said well.

John 1:14

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Revelation 19
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Flygerian

Fort Worth, TX

#1075 Oct 23, 2013
loveismygoal wrote:
<quoted text>Christ is the bare bones of what was said to Moses
Deuteronomy 5:4-6
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
4 The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire, 5 (I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to shew you the word of the Lord: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying, 6 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Numbers 36:5
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
5 And Moses commanded the children of Israel according to the word of the Lord, saying, The tribe of the sons of Joseph hath said well.
John 1:14
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Revelation 19
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
So like I said (though I do not believe it was Jesus) the bare bones consists of what was said to Moses?

Since: Oct 07

Edinburgh, UK

#1076 Oct 23, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
So like I said (though I do not believe it was Jesus) the bare bones consists of what was said to Moses?
that depends on whether you choose to stand at the foot of the mountain and get the word of the Lord second hand through fallible man ,or rather by the time its reached us in this age thousands of years later God only knows how many hands its been through, or whether you choose to go up the mountain and listen to the voice of the living Word of God for yourself ..me I choose to stand on the mountain top and listen to His voice

Psalm 95
For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Hebrews 4:7

Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Micah 6:9

The LORD'S voice crieth unto the city, and the man of wisdom shall see thy name: hear ye the rod, and who hath appointed it.

Isaiah 28:23

Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech

Hebrews 3:15

While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Flygerian

Fort Worth, TX

#1077 Oct 24, 2013
loveismygoal wrote:
<quoted text>that depends on whether you choose to stand at the foot of the mountain and get the word of the Lord second hand through fallible man ,or rather by the time its reached us in this age thousands of years later God only knows how many hands its been through, or whether you choose to go up the mountain and listen to the voice of the living Word of God for yourself ..me I choose to stand on the mountain top and listen to
So Moses is "fallible" but the unknown/unnamed people that wrote the gospels are not?

And if Jesus didnt know something as he said himself:

Matthew 24:36
"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

Is it not possible that he doesnt know other things?
karyn

Scarborough, Canada

#1078 Oct 26, 2013
little lamb wrote:
PS..I like the fact that Peter warns about the unsteady and untaught twisting Pauls words to their own destruction...that should be a warning to them.
I Believe you are referring to 2 Peter... BTW most scholars believe to be a forgery, possibly by Paul. Also when did Paul become our Father? Did Jesus or any of the other Apostles catch anyone by guile?(trickery) as he admits. I never saw Paul write of his repentace of murdering Christians, Stephens murder which he approved.He has 3 accounts of meeting Jesus in the wilderness after his assention to the father ( not in the flesh, as he left ) Maybe you should read all of self appointed Pauls boastings. Also read the books of who wrote 2 peter and the difference in style of the 2 books

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#1079 Oct 26, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
So Moses is "fallible" but the unknown/unnamed people that wrote the gospels are not?
Unnamed??? LOL!
Flygerian

Fort Worth, TX

#1080 Oct 27, 2013
dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
Unnamed??? LOL!
Let me get this straight...

You take offense at me saying the gospels are unnamed but do not take offense at him/her saying that Moses is fallible so we shouldnt trust what he said?

Yep lol. Bias. I know discussing with you is a fruitless endeavor though so I might just leave it at this lol

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#1081 Oct 27, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Let me get this straight...
You take offense at me saying the gospels are unnamed but do not take offense at him/her saying that Moses is fallible so we shouldnt trust what he said?
Yep lol. Bias. I know discussing with you is a fruitless endeavor though so I might just leave it at this lol
You do err. Moses's writings are God's Words as are all of Paul's letters in the NT. I never even hinted otherwise.
Flygerian

Fort Worth, TX

#1082 Oct 27, 2013
dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
You do err. Moses's writings are God's Words as are all of Paul's letters in the NT. I never even hinted otherwise.
You didnt address what I said so I'll repeat.

You take offense about me saying the gospel authors were unknown (FACT!) but you didnt take offense at the person I quoted saying Moses' account was fallible? Hypocrisy!!

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#1083 Oct 27, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
You didnt address what I said so I'll repeat.
You take offense about me saying the gospel authors were unknown (FACT!) but you didnt take offense at the person I quoted saying Moses' account was fallible? Hypocrisy!!
WOW! Are you illiterate?
Flygerian

Fort Worth, TX

#1084 Oct 28, 2013
dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
WOW! Are you illiterate?
Not at all. Just showing how you didnt get on the other person for saying that the bible thru Moses was "fallible" but got on me for saying the gospel authors are unknown. Just showing your bias thats all

Since: Oct 13

Lexington, KY

#1085 Oct 30, 2013
tahoegirl wrote:
If Paul wasn’t guilty as Rev 2:2 alleges, then why does he address those at Ephesus as an "apostle” in Ephesians 1:1?
tahoegirl wrote:
tahoegirl wrote:
If Paul wasn’t guilty as Rev 2:2 alleges, then why does he address those at Ephesus as an "apostle” in Ephesians 1:1?
Both Matthias and Paul were written in the Bible as being Apostles. But you won't find where Christ chose either one to be one of the 12 Apostles in any of the Gospels.

Do you have the faith to believe that a woman would be an Apostle now? If Christ is the one who Choses her?

I believe Christ has chosen me and he is the one that died for my sins on the cross. but then we all don't have to have our names and acts depicted in the bible to be his do we? Where is your name and title in Christ written if in the Bible?

A woman has been a Judge in Israel, held the highest office for a woman, of being Blessed among woman, chosing the good thing listening to Jesus, proclaiming him to all people in town, showing love in spite of adversity and preparing for Jesus burial, bearing the words of Christ as a message to men and many, many others to this day.

For it is written in the Book of Psalms:'Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it'; and,'Let another take his office
No mention to male or female there

About MATTHIAS

"Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His Resurrection.

"And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and MATTHIAS. And they prayed and said,'You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.' And they cast lots, and the lot fell on MATTHIAS. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles" (Acts 1:20-26).

First off, a distinction between disciple and apostle - a disciple is a student, and the 12 disciples were Jesus' students. An Apostle is one who was "sent out." Eleven of Jesus' disciples were sent out to preach the good news. Judas, of course, had committed suicide before being sent out.
The Disciples, recognizing the "need" for a 12th, cast lots and chose Matthias in Acts 1. On the choice of Matthais,

Also, we wonder if Luke was pointing out that casting lots, used all through the Old Testament, was a poor substitute for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, who became the source of wisdom and discernment for such decisions after Pentecost.
I can not see that Matthias could possibly be an Apostle.

He was never sent by Christ as an Apostle. Or chisen to fill in as a top disciple he was a fit, and most likely a man after God and Christ but not as an Apostle to replace Judas.

There are only 12 Apostles, there he may have thought himself to be an Apostle with all the same abilities and the same Gospel to preach and what if Ananias was too afraid of him to share with him that he was told by Christ that Paul was "a chosen Vessel" if The Lord or maybe Paul needed to take the title to let people know of his authority.

Ananias had received this command directly in a vision from the Lord,
“But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
“For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake.”(Acts 9:10–16.)
Paul laminates a lot about past things and calls himself a sinner, an Apostle and a even a Saint. They are all different titles you know..

Since: Oct 13

Lexington, KY

#1086 Oct 30, 2013
Paul was not referring to himself as presently being a sinner, but he was referring to his persecution of the Church of Jesus Christ that made him at that time the “chief of sinners,” and because of this he felt that he was “the least of the apostles,”“not meet to be called an apostle,” and “the least of all the saints.”

He could even be "the least of these" as according to Jesus's word, or the least in the Kingdom of Heaven too but to me I will accept Christ's having called him "A chosen vessel if mine".

I believe it is in Gods plan in the Bible for Paul to say he was an Apostle for a reason though just as Matthais is called the 12th Apostle by the Apostles then for a reason. Most likely cause the people especially men couldn't have faith to believe a woman and she couldn't do Godly things where there is no faith of a Godly woman doing them.

When it is where Paul says he us an Apostle, Paul says about Paul, you can not be a witness for yourself.

Paul bears witness of himself even though Jesus says he himself could not in John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Paul is not superior to Jesus.

One thing I love the word Paul speaks it seems to me sort of the embodiment of the The Gospel of forgiveness in God through Jesus Christ for everyone.

Since: Oct 07

Glasgow, UK

#1087 Oct 31, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
So Moses is "fallible" but the unknown/unnamed people that wrote the gospels are not?
And if Jesus didnt know something as he said himself:
Matthew 24:36
"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.
Is it not possible that he doesnt know other things?
are you saying Moses was infallible ? was Moses a God? even if he was infallible ..which he wasnt ..what of those who have recorded and interpreted his alleged words ..were they infallible ?..my point was man could have went up the mountain and heard the Word of God for themselves but instead they chose to listen to it second hand from a fallible man ..and still thousands of years later and God knows how many misinterpretations, additions and omissions later ..you know how chinese whispers works ..man still chooses to recieve the Word of God second , third and thousand hand later instead of going up the mountain and hearing for themselves

whilst Christ our Lord the Living Word of God who came as man didnt know everything whilst here as a man and had to grow in wisom and knowledge ,now that He is completely at one with God I believe He now knows everything including the day and hour of his return

Since: Oct 07

Glasgow, UK

#1088 Oct 31, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Let me get this straight...
You take offense at me saying the gospels are unnamed but do not take offense at him/her saying that Moses is fallible so we shouldnt trust what he said?
Yep lol. Bias. I know discussing with you is a fruitless endeavor though so I might just leave it at this lol
see how these chinese whispers and getting info second hand from fallible man works ,by adding or ommitting or mistinterpreting what someone says ..look here how you have added to what I said ..where did I say Moses is fallible so we shouldnt trust what he said ? youve added on and taken away from my original statement

"..that depends on whether you choose to stand at the foot of the mountain and get the word of the Lord second hand through fallible man ,or rather by the time its reached us in this age thousands of years later God only knows how many hands its been through, or whether you choose to go up the mountain and listen to the voice of the living Word of God for yourself ..me I choose to stand on the mountain top and listen to His voice "

you even go as far as saying the poster takes no offense at me saying and then quote your own added to and ommitted from words
..a perfect example of how misinterpretated ,misquoted ,second hand chinese whispers from fallible man works

Since: Oct 07

Glasgow, UK

#1089 Oct 31, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Not at all. Just showing how you didnt get on the other person for saying that the bible thru Moses was "fallible" but got on me for saying the gospel authors are unknown. Just showing your bias thats all
and here you add some more words and take away some more to what I actually said, which was

"..that depends on whether you choose to stand at the foot of the mountain and get the word of the Lord second hand through fallible man ,or rather by the time its reached us in this age thousands of years later God only knows how many hands its been through, or whether you choose to go up the mountain and listen to the voice of the living Word of God for yourself ..me I choose to stand on the mountain top and listen to His voice .."

your words are second hand misinterpreted added to and omitted from words far removed from what I actually said ...

could Moses have been capable of the same thing? or the writers who have recorded and translated his words ? or was Moses infallible and incapable or erring ..was he God like?

Since: Oct 07

Glasgow, UK

#1090 Oct 31, 2013
dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
You do err. Moses's writings are God's Words as are all of Paul's letters in the NT. I never even hinted otherwise.
which Bible version do you say Moses writings are Gods words ?
tahoegirl

Orlando, FL

#1091 Oct 31, 2013
Apostle Amber?

Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Was your Jesus in whom you say died for your sins wrong when he said there were to be 12 Apostles to judge 12 tribes that sat on 12 thrones? Or was Paul and you right to say there are many many Apostles, then and up to now there still are even more Apostles and that all these many many Apostles are going to share the 12 thrones? Why did Jesus pick 12 men and give them the title Apostle?

Luke 6:13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
Luke 6:14 Simon,(whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
Luke 6:15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,
Luke 6:16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

I don’t see Paul’s name here, do you? This is Paul’s mouth piece, Luke, who records who the 12 Apostles are and who picked them.(Luke 6:13-16)

Again it is Luke that tells us the qualifications of being an Apostle.
Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
My question to you is, was Paul with Jesus from the baptism of John and a witness of his resurrection? No he was not, for Paul was not a follower of Christ according to his own witness until years after Christ resurrection.

Again it is Luke that affirms that Paul is not one of the 12 when he says the true Apostles appointed Mathias to replace Judas. Was Luke wrong when he said this? If he was then was Luke also wrong when he recorded the story about Paul’s conversion on the road to Damascus? If we can not trust Luke’s Gospels, Luke and Acts, Then Paul has no validity at all. Either way Paul is not an Apostle, because there are only 12 Apostles period.

Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Mathias plus 11 equals 12. Again we are back to 12 Apostles to judge 12 tribes of Israel and 12 thrones to sit with Jesus in judgment.

So, with all due respect I do not believe Paul is an Apostle, nor do I believe you as a woman would be an Apostle; you might be a follower of Jesus but an Apostle you are not.
It is very hard for me to think how people can not see that clearly there are only 12 Apostle’s in the word of God. If you do not except the 11 Apostles authority to pick the 12th Apostle then you are stuck with Judas as the 12th. But you can not trust Paul’s story because his story changes in all 3 of the accounts in Acts 9:4-19, Acts: 22:6-14, Acts 26:14-18.
Part 1 of 2

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Christian Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News Religion, higher education and critical thinking (Aug '15) 2 min INSULTING THE PRO... 7,340
Science and Religion 8 min Big Al 81
What bible story do you find hardest to believe? (Jun '08) 15 min Zom13 1,961
Evidence Against God 50 min INSULTING THE PRO... 2,751
The New Covenant 56 min INSULTING THE PRO... 170
is it me or who else can see demons and angels ? (Nov '11) 1 hr INSULTING THE PRO... 266
All non-believers;GO AWAY. 1 hr blacklagoon 49
Poll Was Paul a False Apostle? (May '08) 1 hr Barnsweb 4,523
Scientific Proof Of GOD(for dummies) 1 hr rog 676
Hearing Voices (the supernatural world) 11 hr Praise Jesus 93
More from around the web