Human Sacrifice... right or wrong?
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#23 Mar 27, 2013
par five wrote:
<quoted text>
If my parents bought me a car, that would indeed be a miracle, they have been dead for years, but what the hell has a parent's right or otherwise to take back a car got to do with human sacrifice, or your god's penchant for killing infants. A parent has the right to chastise an errant child, but they don't have the right to kill that child, something that seemed to be the biblical god's preferred method of chastisement. I have yet to hear one fundie say that the biblical god's slaughter of children is wrong and you probably don't think it's wrong either. Surprise me!
is it me, or have the Xtian analogies really nosedived lately...? Seems like they cant come up with any good ones.

But we have another problem with Flygeerios analogy. He uses the human-parent for his analogy - but we know when "we" use it to counter their silly claims - they balk like a one legged pitcher. The human-parent analogy is off-limits to us...but they can use it, usually poorly - and its all good.

Hypocrites.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#24 Mar 27, 2013
JJJ wrote:
<quoted text>
If god is who the bible says that he is then I totally agree with you that he has the right to do what ever he wants...
I am not questioning his authority I'm questing his moral integrity...

1. I'm asking how could such a thought even enter into his consciousness?

And then when you consider the reported reason.... ie a test of Abe's love and loyalty.... then I can't think anything othe than "What the?"
The pslams tells us that god knows us before we were even embryos and yet he decides to to test Abe's loyalty anyway by asking him to murder his son?
1. Because he too often acts like a petulant child. He likes to stomp all over his toys in his sandbox.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#25 Mar 27, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
How can you question His moral integrity? I dont get it lol. If He is the Creator of ALL things (He is) then how can you question His moral integrity? Honest question though it may not seem like it
Yes a test. Its no different from me "accidentally" dropping my wallet around you to see if you would steal it. A TEST to see if you're my friend or if you would take advantage of me at first chance.
Yes God Almighty knows us. But do we know ourselves? Do you think God Almighty tested Abraham for Himself to know Abraham? Not at all. In another situation do you think God Almighty allowed Satan to tempt Job so that the Almighty could understand Job's faith? Again not at all.
That you would consider testing a "friend" in such a way, means you already know that person cant be trusted.

Or, you're such a pr/ck you think like your God. "I'm gonna test everyone to ensure their loyalty to me."
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#26 Mar 27, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
How can you question His moral integrity? I dont get it lol. If He is the Creator of ALL things (He is) then how can you question His moral integrity? Honest question though it may not seem like it
Yes a test. Its no different from me "accidentally" dropping my wallet around you to see if you would steal it. A TEST to see if you're my friend or if you would take advantage of me at first chance.
Yes God Almighty knows us. But do we know ourselves? Do you think God Almighty tested Abraham for Himself to know Abraham? Not at all.

In another situation do you think God Almighty allowed Satan to tempt Job so that the Almighty could understand Job's faith? Again not at all.
Wow, the same old boring misread of Job.

1. Your God was tweaked by Hassatan, not Satan. Hassatan was a "court attendant" - not the much later Xtian Satan character. The two are very different characters - but Xtianity made the two the same.

2. Your God is so insecure Hassatan got him to allow Job to be "tested". So he allowed all sorts of sh/t to happen to him. This God was made to doubt Job, which means he was made to doubt his own omniscience.

3. No where in Job do we get any sense that God didn't doubt Job's faith. No where does God imply he knew Job would pass.

Its just a stupid story that makes a very narrow, but useful point. Life and happiness is not about wealth and all the trappings and that the "blessings", good fortune can come and go, and be regained if you don't get all down and play the blame game.
JJJ

Surry Hills, Australia

#27 Mar 27, 2013
Fly... can I call you fly?

Within the laws of logic you are not allowed to state that you believe in a god that is the personification of love, that exists on the highest plane of enlightenment and then use human analogies to describe him...

This is my whole contention... yes a parent has the right to take back a car they have given to their kids... and yes a thief will steal and a rapist will rape but with the latter...

Sadly this is all too common with dysfunctional humans...but it is not right.

Why I could even conceive of mentally deranged human thinking that human sacrifice is okay....

But not the god(s)... at least not if god exists in the form that xstians believe that he does....

I am a human and I would never....

Allow someone to kill my best friend's 10 children to test my friends loyalty ... god/Satan/Job

I would never expect my children to turn the other cheek, to forgive freely and eternally but then punish them eternally....

I would not sanction genocide which is what the bible god did when he ordered the Jews to commit what one scholar has called has referred to as 'the holocaust in reverse' in killing every 'man woman & child' of certain lands that they invaded..

You see you argument is so short sighted... the authority that you speak of or at least the way in which god enforces it...

Is what we would expect of a tyrant, a evil dictator... your argument is and one poster has also stated that because your god is so powerful and that no can stand against him that he can do what he wants..

In this you are only seeing the issue on a physical level...

My argument is on a level of principle... I am asking you indeed all xstians how do they morally reconcile on the things that bible says their god has done things that humans of even a moderate level of ethical principle find evil...

If your argument has any merit, ie, god can do whatever he wants because he is god and he is powerful enough so there...

Then you are defending the actions of Hitler, Edi Amin, Pol Pot and every tyrant that has ever committed atrocities against their fellow man...

Flygerian

Yukon, OK

#28 Mar 27, 2013
par five wrote:
<quoted text>
If my parents bought me a car, that would indeed be a miracle, they have been dead for years, but what the hell has a parent's right or otherwise to take back a car got to do with human sacrifice, or your god's penchant for killing infants. A parent has the right to chastise an errant child, but they don't have the right to kill that child, something that seemed to be the biblical god's preferred method of chastisement. I have yet to hear one fundie say that the biblical god's slaughter of children is wrong and you probably don't think it's wrong either. Surprise me!
Way to be a smart aleck lol. I'll answer your post when you answer my question. If you dont feel like answering thats cool too I guess =/
Flygerian

Yukon, OK

#29 Mar 27, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
But forcing someone to disobey his Commandments is okay with you? Sure if we play the All Powerful God game where he can do as HE pleases - he can kill as so wishes. But forcing others to do his bidding, and thereby disobeying his Commandment (with no clear offer of a pass.)...sounds to me like one more reason to acknowledge that Man invented this God. Inability to keep the lies, er...made-up story straight.
How did He force someone to disobey His commandments?

What do you mean forcing others to do His bidding?

Can you just elaborate on this whole post?

lol
Flygerian

Yukon, OK

#30 Mar 27, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
is it me, or have the Xtian analogies really nosedived lately...? Seems like they cant come up with any good ones.
But we have another problem with Flygeerios analogy. He uses the human-parent for his analogy - but we know when "we" use it to counter their silly claims - they balk like a one legged pitcher. The human-parent analogy is off-limits to us...but they can use it, usually poorly - and its all good.
Hypocrites.
1. Im not a christian lol
2. You cannot just randomly use analogies. They have to be in context of what God is
3. My analogy was not poor. God Almighty gave you life, the parents gave the child a car. God Almighty gave life for a purpose. The parents gave the car for a purpose. You didnt live life according to the purpose intended. The child didnt use the car according to the purpose intended.

So here the parent could take the car back right? If so, then why do you question when God Almighty takes the life of a person?
Flygerian

Yukon, OK

#31 Mar 27, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
That you would consider testing a "friend" in such a way, means you already know that person cant be trusted.
Or, you're such a pr/ck you think like your God. "I'm gonna test everyone to ensure their loyalty to me."
No I have not tested a friend like that. But I have friends steal from me and I coulda did that to REALLY see if they were doing it. Whats the "prick" thing about that?
Flygerian

Yukon, OK

#32 Mar 27, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow, the same old boring misread of Job.
1. Your God was tweaked by Hassatan, not Satan. Hassatan was a "court attendant" - not the much later Xtian Satan character. The two are very different characters - but Xtianity made the two the same.
2. Your God is so insecure Hassatan got him to allow Job to be "tested". So he allowed all sorts of sh/t to happen to him. This God was made to doubt Job, which means he was made to doubt his own omniscience.
3. No where in Job do we get any sense that God didn't doubt Job's faith. No where does God imply he knew Job would pass.
Its just a stupid story that makes a very narrow, but useful point. Life and happiness is not about wealth and all the trappings and that the "blessings", good fortune can come and go, and be regained if you don't get all down and play the blame game.
1. I know what Satan is. Im not a christian so can you stop referring to me as one? I believe I've said this to you before
2. So insecure? Or a story that people after (and Job) could learn from?
3. I guess God just kept suggesting Job to Satan thinking Job would eventually fail huh?
Flygerian

Yukon, OK

#33 Mar 27, 2013
JJJ wrote:
Fly... can I call you fly?
Within the laws of logic you are not allowed to state that you believe in a god that is the personification of love, that exists on the highest plane of enlightenment and then use human analogies to describe him...
This is my whole contention... yes a parent has the right to take back a car they have given to their kids... and yes a thief will steal and a rapist will rape but with the latter...
Sadly this is all too common with dysfunctional humans...but it is not right.
Why I could even conceive of mentally deranged human thinking that human sacrifice is okay....
But not the god(s)... at least not if god exists in the form that xstians believe that he does....
I am a human and I would never....
Allow someone to kill my best friend's 10 children to test my friends loyalty ... god/Satan/Job
I would never expect my children to turn the other cheek, to forgive freely and eternally but then punish them eternally....
I would not sanction genocide which is what the bible god did when he ordered the Jews to commit what one scholar has called has referred to as 'the holocaust in reverse' in killing every 'man woman & child' of certain lands that they invaded..
You see you argument is so short sighted... the authority that you speak of or at least the way in which god enforces it...
Is what we would expect of a tyrant, a evil dictator... your argument is and one poster has also stated that because your god is so powerful and that no can stand against him that he can do what he wants..
In this you are only seeing the issue on a physical level...
My argument is on a level of principle... I am asking you indeed all xstians how do they morally reconcile on the things that bible says their god has done things that humans of even a moderate level of ethical principle find evil...
If your argument has any merit, ie, god can do whatever he wants because he is god and he is powerful enough so there...
Then you are defending the actions of Hitler, Edi Amin, Pol Pot and every tyrant that has ever committed atrocities against their fellow man...
1. Sure you can call me fly lol and if you understand that the parent could take the GIFT of the car back why couldnt God Almighty take the GIFT of life back from anyone that didnt appreciate it as He intended.

2. No one said human sacrifice nor did God Almighty command Israel to commit humans to be sacrificed

3. Eternal punishment came from your boy Jesus lol. Remember the one that was on a "higher plane" to the God of Israel?

4. Yep genocide was committed because of what was happening in the lands of the Canaanites and Amorites. Same things happen today

5. I dont think you've read the bible. Remember that this is just from my point of view. I say this because you parrot what atheists from evil bible . com say. Sticking to the genocides and not reading the full story of why God was exterminating them from the land.

6. The thing with those dictators is they didnt choose to be here just as the people they murdered didnt. They didnt give life. They didnt create the earth that we live on. So how can they dictate life to the extent that they tried?
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#34 Mar 27, 2013
JJJ wrote:
Who instigated the ritualistic killing of a human to appease god(s)?
Was it god or man? An important question when we acknowledge that human sacrifice is murder. Even the ransom sacrifice was an act of murder.
So was it man or god that instigated the act?
Surely we would not contend that it was god who instigated this evil ritualistic act of murder that was practiced in ignorant times.
Then again the bible tells us that god asked Abraham to commit the act and what's more we read about it and accept it as a positive act, we praise Abe's willingness to murder his own son just to prove his love and loyalty toward god (strange when the psalms tells us that god knows us before we are even embryos don't you think)..
The point is if we read about and accept that it was a righteous thing that god requested and that Abe was willing to do... then no doubt Abraham's contemporaries could have begun to emulate Abraham.. after all is this not what god wants?
On the other hand if you say that it was man that first committed murder calling it 'sacrifice' then I'm left trying to reconcile why god would adopt such a wicked evil ritual as the means to forgive our so called 'sins'.
Sure you can tell me life was lost when Adam sinned and only another life paid as a ransom can redeem sinful man...... but paid to who? Who demanded the ransom?
Is not the ransom paid to god? And if that is so then I have to accept that it was indeed god that has demanded that a human life be sacrificed, that he demanded that an act of murder had to be committed before he will consent to forgive sinful man...
You cannot reconcile this. I know I will be presented with all sorts of technical and scriptural reasoning why I am wrong.....
But be honest, if the above was discussing another faith, the Hindu, Buddhist, Islam or any faith so long as it is notChristianity...
Everyone would agree hands down that murdering a human and calling it a 'ransom sacrifice' to appease a god....... is just wrong...
Why did God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son? What did the actions of Abraham prove?
Cisco Kid

Modesto, CA

#35 Mar 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Why did God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son?
What did the actions of Abraham prove?
Here's something from my mind. No where else.

Have you ever considered that Abraham and Sarah were barren for a long time until God consecrated them with a child, Isaac.?

Add to that that, Abraham might not have been totally blest in his relationship with Hagar bearing Ishmael.

Many parables compare us as vines and God as cultivator.
'Cut out the vines leading to bad produce.'

NOW..consider that God sees all time as concurrent.
God asked Abraham to kill his 'first' born son.
Ishmael is attributed as being the ancestor Arab Palestinians.

If Abe had actually listened to God and sacrificed his 'First' son, Ishmael, what might be different today?

Food for thought.
Brought to you by the scriptural exercises of St.Ignatius.

Since: Aug 08

Somewhere in Ireland

#36 Mar 28, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Way to be a smart aleck lol. I'll answer your post when you answer my question. If you dont feel like answering thats cool too I guess =/
I did answer your question. I said that parents have a right to discipline their chilren if they do wrong and that would include the suspension of privileges. How on earth does such a parent's right then mean that the biblical god's slaughter of childen is something it is entitled to do?
Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

#38 Mar 28, 2013
par five wrote:
<quoted text>
I did answer your question. I said that parents have a right to discipline their chilren if they do wrong and that would include the suspension of privileges. How on earth does such a parent's right then mean that the biblical god's slaughter of childen is something it is entitled to do?
Gift of Car = Gift of Life
Parents ability to take car back = The Eternal's ability to take life back

Is that easier to understand?
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#39 Mar 28, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
How did He force someone to disobey His commandments?
What do you mean forcing others to do His bidding?
Can you just elaborate on this whole post?
lol
Did God not command people to kill others, either for their (those killed) sins, or for the benefits of themselves?(Jews)

He wanted Abe to kill - thereby telling him to disobey the first order (commandment) without ever telling him the commandment (or the punishment) was being waived. Why didnt Abe ask God, "Uh...God...what about your commandment not to kill? Am I getting a pass on that one?"

But good old Abe was willing; and why? Because Abe was a sick f/ck. Who heard voices telling him to kill his son for his God.

And you think that was a way cool thing to do.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#40 Mar 28, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
1. I know what Satan is. Im not a christian so can you stop referring to me as one? I believe I've said this to you before
2. So insecure? Or a story that people after (and Job) could learn from?
3. I guess God just kept suggesting Job to Satan thinking Job would eventually fail huh?
1. NO apparently you dont. Cause it wasn't Satan IN the story of JOB! Thats a much later Xtian spin, that you a non-xtian are relying on. Despite the last 5 letters of the word Hasatan - "he's" not the Satan character of later. BTW, hasatan is NOT a name, but a description (the adversary) of that characters role in this Gods court. He was the guy who said, "No" - when the rest of the sycophants said, "Yes." A consigliere perhaps...?

If you'd read the story, you'd know the reality of the tale. After God was all gushy about Job, the Hasatan tweaked God to doubt it, and asked for permission to test Job, and God, said, "sure, go right ahead." And each time, God allowed the Hasatan to up the ante, because apparently God thought Job would fail...not that he thought he wouldn't.

Clearly Gods omniscience was not working in this case...

2. Yeah, its just a weird way to teach a lesson. When you put it in the context of the time and culture it sort of makes sense...the Jews rely on a lot of really sh/tty, depressing stories about misery being inflicted on them to teach their kids. The notion of joy seemed to escape them for the most part...
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#41 Mar 28, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Gift of Car = Gift of Life
Parents ability to take car back = The Eternal's ability to take life back
Is that easier to understand?
How in the world can you equate (make equal) a the gift of a car to life? Its a lousy analogy. A car isn't Life.

Parents don't "gift life" to their children. In fact many dont even plan them...so its hardly a gift. And as already stated, parents cant take the lives of their children. Legally, morally, ethically, etc, etc, outside of a very narrow parameter like their own lives being seriously threatened.

And there's no reason for anyone to truly believe that this "Eternal Being" gifts life to any creature at any time.
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#42 Mar 28, 2013
The basic beliefs behind a gift rests on the important idea that its given freely without conditions.

And if not, then the conditions must be outlined in full prior to the giving. Which in a manner of speaking negates the "giftiness" of the gift.

Does God tell the unborn of his conditions, for their life? Nope. So he shouldn't be such a prick about his own failings...which clearly humans continue to suffer for...
Punisher

Massapequa, NY

#43 Mar 28, 2013
Cisco Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's something from my mind. No where else.
Have you ever considered that Abraham and Sarah were barren for a long time until God consecrated them with a child, Isaac.?
Add to that that, Abraham might not have been totally blest in his relationship with Hagar bearing Ishmael.
Many parables compare us as vines and God as cultivator.
'Cut out the vines leading to bad produce.'
NOW..consider that God sees all time as concurrent.
God asked Abraham to kill his 'first' born son.
Ishmael is attributed as being the ancestor Arab Palestinians.
If Abe had actually listened to God and sacrificed his 'First' son, Ishmael, what might be different today?
Food for thought.
Brought to you by the scriptural exercises of St.Ignatius.
But God stayed Abes hand! Which means he wanted it that way. So who's to blame for your (insulting) theory?

BTW; pretty much all Muslim Arabs consider Ish'y their ancestor...not just the Palestinians.

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