Why don't atheist and skeptics make a...

“Jesus=only way into Heaven”

Since: Nov 12

saved by grace through faith

#807 Dec 7, 2012
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
They're the same ones that Christian believe in...only they say he'll "get to them when he comes back".
http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm
Again, I ask you why Jesus didn't do ONE major historical thing?
We already know that modern Jewish Rabbis don't believe Jesus was the Messiah. I asked you to quote bible verses that YOU consider a major historical prophesy that Christ didn't fulfill.

The fact that Christ Jesus was rejected is fulfilled prophesy.
(Psalm 118:22)(Isaiah 53:3)(Isaiah 8:14)(Isaiah 28:16)

Jesus fulfilled so many Messianic prophesies that I can't even begin to quote them all. The few that He didn't fulfill (peace on earth)(ruling the nations) will be established during the millennial reign.

Warning though to you unbelievers, the anti-Christ will come before Christ returns to earth. The world be deceived by him, many jews will think the AC is the Messiah until midway through the tribulation period. That's when anti-Christ causes the abomination of desolation.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#808 Dec 7, 2012
Earth Child 1 wrote:
<quoted text>Not one eyewitness saw him "rise" from the dead. An empty tomb was found and that was all.
If the tomb was not empty that would mean He did not rise. The empty tomb means He did rise. Note also no one ever presented His dead body to anyone. Not the Romans, not the Jewish authorities and not His disciples. The fact is, He rose on the third day.

“Jesus=only way into Heaven”

Since: Nov 12

saved by grace through faith

#809 Dec 7, 2012
Earth Child 1 wrote:
<quoted text>Not one eyewitness saw him "rise" from the dead. An empty tomb was found and that was all.
1 Corinthians 15:3-8
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#810 Dec 7, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
The resurrection of Christ is thee best attested event in ancient history.
lol, it's completely unattested except for a few accounts written decades later by unknown authors that aren't even independent, all of which were members of a cult.
Jeff wrote:
The reason is that it has a number of eyewitness accounts from a period of about 40 days. Over 500 people saw him and we have the names of some of them. See I cor 15.
500 people saw my great-grandpa fly too.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#811 Dec 7, 2012
Romans Road wrote:
<quoted text>
We already know that modern Jewish Rabbis don't believe Jesus was the Messiah. I asked you to quote bible verses that YOU consider a major historical prophesy that Christ didn't fulfill.
And that site lists a number of them. Did you look at it?
Romans Road wrote:
The fact that Christ Jesus was rejected is fulfilled prophesy.
(Psalm 118:22)(Isaiah 53:3)(Isaiah 8:14)(Isaiah 28:16)
A guy with a controversial message was rejected by some people and accepted by some people?!?! What impressive prophecy!

I have a prophecy to make. A musician will make an album. Some people will like it and some people won't like it.
Romans Road wrote:
Jesus fulfilled so many Messianic prophesies that I can't even begin to quote them all. The few that He didn't fulfill (peace on earth)(ruling the nations) will be established during the millennial reign.
He "fulfilled" all the unimportant, unconfirmable ones. As I said before, very convenient.

Jesus "fulfilled" all the ones that someone could easily MAKE UP someone fulfilling. I can make up the story that my great-grandpa was betrayed for 30 silver. I can't make up him becoming President.

“Shoot for the stars”

Since: Dec 10

Planet Earth

#812 Dec 7, 2012
Romans Road wrote:
<quoted text>
1 Corinthians 15:3-8
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
Ah, where's the eyewitness? All you've got is babble.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#813 Dec 7, 2012
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
lol, it's completely unattested except for a few accounts written decades later by unknown authors that aren't even independent, all of which were members of a cult.
<quoted text>
500 people saw my great-grandpa fly too.
Historians would love to have multiple eyewitness accounts for an event or person. The fact is that there are not many. This is why the resurrection is one of the best attested historical event in ancient history. Not only are there multiple eyewitnesses accounts but they are written in close proximity in time and location of the event. Just because these eyewitnesses were His disciples does not make them false.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#814 Dec 7, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
If the tomb was not empty that would mean He did not rise. The empty tomb means He did rise.
You don't have an evidence he was even put in a tomb. He could have been buried in an unmarked grave, like most criminals would be.
Jeff wrote:
Note also no one ever presented His dead body to anyone. Not the Romans, not the Jewish authorities and not His disciples.
1. Why would the Romans or Jewish authorities care? If some guy started saying that his father buried in 1985 had resurrected, would the police have the grave dug up? Not a chance.
2. Even if they did care, how would they present his dead body? They likely wouldn't know where it was even buried. And even if they knew where it was buried, they'd just dig up a decomposed corpse that no one could recognize.

“Shoot for the stars”

Since: Dec 10

Planet Earth

#815 Dec 7, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Historians would love to have multiple eyewitness accounts for an event or person. The fact is that there are not many. This is why the resurrection is one of the best attested historical event in ancient history. Not only are there multiple eyewitnesses accounts but they are written in close proximity in time and location of the event. Just because these eyewitnesses were His disciples does not make them false.
And still no eyewitnesses for Jesus walking out of his tomb.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#816 Dec 7, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Historians would love to have multiple eyewitness accounts for an event or person. The fact is that there are not many. This is why the resurrection is one of the best attested historical event in ancient history. Not only are there multiple eyewitnesses accounts but they are written in close proximity in time and location of the event. Just because these eyewitnesses were His disciples does not make them false.
Close proximity in time? The earliest Gospel is Mark, which is 4 decades after the events in question. Luke and Matthew are dependent on Mark, so they don't even really qualify as independent accounts.

As yes, being his followers does strongly hurt their credibility. There were a bunch of Mormons who wrote about Joseph Smith's magic translating powers. And they wrote about it AT that time, and we know exactly who those people were. Yet I doubt you take their word on the matter as valid.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#817 Dec 7, 2012
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't have an evidence he was even put in a tomb. He could have been buried in an unmarked grave, like most criminals would be.
<quoted text>
1. Why would the Romans or Jewish authorities care? If some guy started saying that his father buried in 1985 had resurrected, would the police have the grave dug up? Not a chance.
2. Even if they did care, how would they present his dead body? They likely wouldn't know where it was even buried. And even if they knew where it was buried, they'd just dig up a decomposed corpse that no one could recognize.
You have got to be kidding. The gospels are historical accounts and they tell us not only was He put in a tomb but whose tomb. Roman guards were there to guard it. This was not an unmarked grave.(He was not buried in the ground but in an above ground tomb) Not only did the Romans know where the tomb was but so did the Jewish leadership and His disciples.

The Romans cared because they did not want riots to start. The Jewish leadership cared because they did not want to lose power and influence to Jesus and His disciples. Jesus carried a lot of influence with the people during His ministry.
If the authorities could have presented the body of Jesus that would have ended the affair right there. The fact that they did not nor could they was because He rose on the 3rd day.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#818 Dec 7, 2012
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
Close proximity in time? The earliest Gospel is Mark, which is 4 decades after the events in question. Luke and Matthew are dependent on Mark, so they don't even really qualify as independent accounts.
As yes, being his followers does strongly hurt their credibility. There were a bunch of Mormons who wrote about Joseph Smith's magic translating powers. And they wrote about it AT that time, and we know exactly who those people were. Yet I doubt you take their word on the matter as valid.
Keep in mind that many of the eyewitnesses were still alive before the first gospels were written. These eyewitnesses would have had good memories and there is nothing to stop them from writing down what they saw and heard. Its this kind of material that would have been used to write the gospels.
Matthew was a eyewitness as was John. Mark wrote what Peter told him to. Luke interviewed the eyewitnesses. As you can see, the gospels do not depend on Mark.
Followers of someone do not hurt their credibility. What would hurt is if they got the facts wrong or were shown to be making things up.
There are problems with Smith. No one saw the plates. That is a big problem for the Mormon. This is not the case for the gospels. Jesus did His ministry in public. His miracles were done in public for all to see. So your comparison fails.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#819 Dec 7, 2012
Earth Child 1 wrote:
<quoted text>And still no eyewitnesses for Jesus walking out of his tomb.
Well the guards were there and the tomb was empty. No one claimed to have stolen His body or presented. He seen by over 500 people over a 40 day period. That means He walked out of tomb.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#820 Dec 7, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
You have got to be kidding. The gospels are historical accounts and they tell us not only was He put in a tomb but whose tomb.
They're largely LEGENDARY accounts. So no, you don't know how he was buried or where.
Jeff wrote:
The Romans cared because they did not want riots to start. The Jewish leadership cared because they did not want to lose power and influence to Jesus and His disciples. Jesus carried a lot of influence with the people during His ministry.
...according to Christian legend.
Jeff wrote:
If the authorities could have presented the body of Jesus that would have ended the affair right there. The fact that they did not nor could they was because He rose on the 3rd day.
If Jesus was placed in an unmarked grave, that would have been impossible.
If Jesus was in a marked grave and they dug him up, the believers would have just said that it was some other body.

Your claims are absurd. They would not have had interest nor ability to disprove the cultists' claims.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#821 Dec 7, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Well the guards were there and the tomb was empty. No one claimed to have stolen His body or presented. He seen by over 500 people over a 40 day period. That means He walked out of tomb.
There are three different accounts of the empty tomb. That means the stories were fabricated, as we know, long after the alleged fact.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#822 Dec 7, 2012
Romans Road wrote:
<quoted text>
1 Corinthians 15:3-8
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
12) Impossible to communicate with as he uses the Bible as proof that he is right

16) Cartoonishly closed-minded

“Shoot for the stars”

Since: Dec 10

Planet Earth

#823 Dec 7, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Well the guards were there and the tomb was empty. No one claimed to have stolen His body or presented. He seen by over 500 people over a 40 day period. That means He walked out of tomb.
Gaurds sleeping on the job and Jesus, with the little strength he still had, was able to walked out because he was never dead.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#824 Dec 7, 2012
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Keep in mind that many of the eyewitnesses were still alive before the first gospels were written. These eyewitnesses would have had good memories
Yeah, when I think of old people, I think of good memories.
Jeff wrote:
Matthew was a eyewitness as was John. Mark wrote what Peter told him to. Luke interviewed the eyewitnesses. As you can see, the gospels do not depend on Mark.
Then why do Matthew and Luke copy large portions of Mark?
Jeff wrote:
Followers of someone do not hurt their credibility.
Yes, it does, especially since they were cult members. If a follower of David Koresh told you he could heal people with his hands, would you believe it? What if 3 followers did? Still no, I bet.
Jeff wrote:
What would hurt is if they got the facts wrong or were shown to be making things up.
Given that almost everything they talk about in unconfirmable in either direction, that doesn't mean much. Still, we know they do get some facts wrong. Matthew's account of Herod's Slaughter is made up.

If I told you a bunch of stories about my great-grandfather, how would you show them to be wrong?
Jeff wrote:
There are problems with Smith. No one saw the plates. That is a big problem for the Mormon. This is not the case for the gospels. Jesus did His ministry in public. His miracles were done in public for all to see. So your comparison fails.
That's not true. The Mormon witnesses saw the plates and said they saw an angel tell them Joseph Smith was legit.

And AGAIN, you don't know Jesus' miracles were done in public because you don't know they were done at all. You are taking Christian mythology and legend as fact when it has never been established.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#825 Dec 7, 2012
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
Then why do Matthew and Luke copy large portions of Mark?
And also 88 verses of another document, a sayings gospel known to scholars as "Q."

The whole "the evangelists were eyewitnesses" is pretty obvious and self-serving BS.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#826 Dec 7, 2012
Romans Road wrote:
<quoted text>
The fact that Christ Jesus was rejected is fulfilled prophesy.
(Psalm 118:22)(Isaiah 53:3)(Isaiah 8:14)(Isaiah 28:16)
LOL! Boy, you sure set the bar low for "prophecy."
Romans Road wrote:
<quoted text>
Warning though to you unbelievers, the anti-Christ will come before Christ returns to earth. The world be deceived by him, many jews will think the AC is the Messiah until midway through the tribulation period. That's when anti-Christ causes the abomination of desolation.
Threats, threats, threat. That's all you've got at bottom, isn't it?

And the rapture stuff is utter unbiblical hogwash, totally man-made, cracked-brain NUTJOBBERY!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nelson_Darb...

James Grant wrote: "With the deadly heresies entertained and taught by the Plymouth Brethren, in relation to some of the most momentous of all the doctrines of the gospel, and to which I have adverted at some length, I feel assured that my readers will not be surprised at any other views, however unscriptual and pernicious they may be, which the Darbyites have embraced and zealously seek to propagate"[17]

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