Why don't atheist and skeptics make a...
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#3438 Jan 2, 2013
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
That's not true. It is observed, via the red shift.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion...
<quoted text>
We can determine the best possible available explanation through testing.
<quoted text>
I agree that it would take a significant amount of evidence to bolster any particular theory of abiogenesis.
<quoted text>
Many new species have been created in labs or seen arising in nature.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciatio...
<quoted text>
Being outnumbered does not make a victory impossible. Numbers are only one factor in a battle. There is also leadership, military tactics, quality of troop equipment, quality of troop training, environment, morale, supplies, etc.
So explain again what was impossible.
The red shift does not qualify as “extra ordinary” evidence. Who has ever seen a red shift anyway?
No one i have ever met or read has ever observed one specie changing into another. I've read this is possible. In fact, its my understanding that there are no transitional fossils that clearly show such changes.
I didn't say it was impossible but that if you compare what Alexander had with some of the armies he faced he should not have won. There is no “extra ordinary” evidence that shows why he won.

If people want to demand that Christians have “extra ordinary” evidence for their beliefs then we will insist the same principle applies to other claims in science and history. What we have seen is that many scientific and historical claims cannot live up to this principle either.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#3439 Jan 2, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
I get it and you know "the real god" lmao. Till he reveals himself to someone; I dont believe you you need more people
Which makes no sense and has nothing to do with my post. So here, try again:

"You answered it with a lie though.

Man made "gods" are purely mythical, including Israel's fake "god". "
pearl

Salt Lake City, UT

#3440 Jan 2, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Nonsense. The Bible has influenced the thinking of people for centuries. Its wisdom unparallelled. Just look at how influential the teachings of Christ are in billions of peoples lives in whom many are way smarter than you. The trap is atheism and skepticism because both offer nothing for the betterment of a person's life.
It's not about the betterment of ones life. What about the betterment of the world in general. That a very selfish perspective. That's the problem with Monotheism, your world is about you, and your salvation. Let the earth and all on it be damned, as long as your are saved? And yet you claim wisdom. The influence of the "teachings" is just blind obedience, and blind obedience has been shown to be asking for trouble. Monotheism controls the world, and it's not doing a very good job. Where's the wisdom?
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#3441 Jan 2, 2013
pearl wrote:
<quoted text>It's not about the betterment of ones life. What about the betterment of the world in general. That a very selfish perspective. That's the problem with Monotheism, your world is about you, and your salvation. Let the earth and all on it be damned, as long as your are saved? And yet you claim wisdom. The influence of the "teachings" is just blind obedience, and blind obedience has been shown to be asking for trouble. Monotheism controls the world, and it's not doing a very good job. Where's the wisdom?
There is no doubt that millions of people's lives are improved when they follow the teachings of Christ. Those who are screwing up the world are not following the teachings of Christ.

What wisdom do you live by?
Lisa

Silver Spring, MD

#3442 Jan 2, 2013
Atheism is an arrival. It is an ultimate knowledge of truth. A pure atheist doesn't judge theists because they are at peace with themselves. Atheism is freedom from chains that theists grip around their hopeful limbs. For some, the journey leading to the fresh air of atheism begins with the honest answer to the question: "Is it possible, POSSIBLE, there is no god?" And from there, the enlightening step is made.

Roland_Deschain

“Naturalism - Nature is Enough”

Since: Nov 07

UK

#3443 Jan 2, 2013
Lisa wrote:
Atheism is an arrival. It is an ultimate knowledge of truth. A pure atheist doesn't judge theists because they are at peace with themselves. Atheism is freedom from chains that theists grip around their hopeful limbs. For some, the journey leading to the fresh air of atheism begins with the honest answer to the question: "Is it possible, POSSIBLE, there is no god?" And from there, the enlightening step is made.
Atheism is merely a position regarding deities.

Roland_Deschain

“Naturalism - Nature is Enough”

Since: Nov 07

UK

#3444 Jan 2, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Who has ever seen a red shift anyway?
"Redshift surveys of galaxies definitely serve as the central database for observational cosmology."

http://relativity.livingreviews.org/open...
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
No one i have ever met or read has ever observed one specie changing into another.
"A new study finds that a change in a single gene has sent two closely related bird populations on their way to becoming two distinct species."

"Speciation, the process by which different populations of the same species split into separate species, is central to evolution. But it's notoriously hard to observe in action. This study, led by biologist J. Albert Uy of Syracuse University, captures two populations of monarch flycatcher birds just as they arrive at that evolutionary crossroads."

http://www.geneticarchaeology.com/research/St...

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#3446 Jan 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
No one i have ever met or read has ever observed one specie changing into another.
Not surprising.
Thinking

Leighton Buzzard, UK

#3447 Jan 3, 2013
I once saw Castro fall over on the news.
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Who has ever seen a red shift anyway?

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#3448 Jan 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
The red shift does not qualify as “extra ordinary” evidence.
Why would we need extraordinary evidence for "things are moving"?
Jeff wrote:
Who has ever seen a red shift anyway?
Tons of scientists. And virtually everyone has heard the audio equivalent when a fire truck has passed them.
Jeff wrote:
No one i have ever met or read has ever observed one specie changing into another.
Well I just gave you a link to some resources, so now you have.
Jeff wrote:
I didn't say it was impossible
Yes, you did. You said what he did was "impossible by military standards".
Jeff wrote:
but that if you compare what Alexander had with some of the armies he faced he should not have won. There is no “extra ordinary” evidence that shows why he won.
Give me an example. Which battle?
Jeff wrote:
If people want to demand that Christians have “extra ordinary” evidence for their beliefs then we will insist the same principle applies to other claims in science and history. What we have seen is that many scientific and historical claims cannot live up to this principle either.
You haven't shown one yet.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#3449 Jan 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no doubt that millions of people's lives are improved when they follow the teachings of Christ. Those who are screwing up the world are not following the teachings of Christ.
What wisdom do you live by?
ANOTHER good JOKE!!!

About 85% of the US is Christian, so rather than face the fact that it's you Christians causing all the wars, murders, drug usage, hate crimes, and on, and on, and on... You try blaming it all on the small 15%.

But your JOKE aside, you totally avoided the point "pearl" made. You always seem to do that, why?
Big Al

Grand Rapids, MN

#3450 Jan 4, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
The claim that the "universe is ever-expanding" is a claim that requires extraordinary proof since it something that is never observed in our world. You didnt give any evidence for it. By your criteria you are not justified in believing because it fails the “extraordinary evidence” principle.
Every time you stand on a street corner and listen to the cars passing by you experience the “Doppler Effect” also known as the “red shift’ in relation light waves. The sound waves produced by the cars as they approach you sound higher pitched than the sound of the cars moving away from you. The light waves from objects moving toward us appear as shorter light waves (blue) than light waves from objects moving away (red) from us.

Read a science book!

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#3451 Jan 4, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
Every time you stand on a street corner and listen to the cars passing by you experience the “Doppler Effect” also known as the “red shift’ in relation light waves. The sound waves produced by the cars as they approach you sound higher pitched than the sound of the cars moving away from you. The light waves from objects moving toward us appear as shorter light waves (blue) than light waves from objects moving away (red) from us.
Read a science book!
Jeff has no intention of reading anything that isn't sanctioned by his fundie religion, if he even reads that. He thinks, because he is ignorant, the rest of humanity is.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#3452 Jan 4, 2013
Big Al wrote:
<quoted text>
Every time you stand on a street corner and listen to the cars passing by you experience the “Doppler Effect” also known as the “red shift’ in relation light waves. The sound waves produced by the cars as they approach you sound higher pitched than the sound of the cars moving away from you. The light waves from objects moving toward us appear as shorter light waves (blue) than light waves from objects moving away (red) from us.
Read a science book!
Science books are not written in the format that fundies can understand.

They need to be changed to something like:

And behold! As thou standeth on a street corner and harken to the cars passing by thou experience your Lord's “Doppler Effect” also beknown as the sacred “red shift’ in relation to the angels of light. The sound waves that proceedith from the Lord by the chariots of iron as they approach thou sound higher pitched than the sound of the chariots of iron moving away from thou. The angels of light from objects moving toward thou appear as shorter angels of light (blue) than angels of light from objects moving away (red) from thou.

Read a science book saith the Lord thy God!!!

“The Topix Legend of "GS8"!”

Since: Sep 10

Danville, VA

#3453 Jan 4, 2013
-The Star Reborn- wrote:
<quoted text>
Science books are not written in the format that fundies can understand.
They need to be changed to something like:
And behold! As thou standeth on a street corner and harken to the cars passing by thou experience your Lord's “Doppler Effect” also beknown as the sacred “red shift’ in relation to the angels of light. The sound waves that proceedith from the Lord by the chariots of iron as they approach thou sound higher pitched than the sound of the chariots of iron moving away from thou. The angels of light from objects moving toward thou appear as shorter angels of light (blue) than angels of light from objects moving away (red) from thou.
Read a science book saith the Lord thy God!!!
Excellent example of your behavior on the Christian forum. No wonder you have to have multiple accounts. The more I read the more concerned I become about the extent of your brain damage.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#3454 Jan 4, 2013
The_Box wrote:
The proper cliche you're looking for is "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".
That is not a rule of logic.More of a rhetorical device. Besides, if God exists then resurrection is not an extraordinary claim since God creates life from dirt.
Christianity makes extraordinary claims and doesn't back them up, so they should be rejected by any rational person.
Then the so-called rational person has to explain the origin of life absent intelligence. Atheism rules out God and makes fixed naturalistic assumptions about all places at all times
Impossible standards? They're the same standards that YOU apply to everything other than your religion.
No not really.
The burden is on believers to prove such an event happened, not on skeptics to disprove it.
The burden is on the person making the claim. There is a good historical case for resurrection. Ehrman states he does not know what happened after Jesus died.
&fe ature=related
Actually, naturalistic arguments are very effective because supernatural claims haven't been validated. They have the worst track record in the world.
Supernatural claims are rare. Jesus is historical. Hostile accounts have Jesus down as a sorcerer so neither hostile or friendly deny supernatural events as it relates to Jesus.
If I told you I could fly like Superman, you'd think that was BS until you saw some damn good evidence of it. Why? Because people don't fly like Superman.
Right.
It doesn't add any weight; it's a cultural phenomenon that primitive peoples have used to explain the world. Why is there lightning? Angry god! Why do our crops grow? Happy goddess!
That is dismissive. All of human history believes God in one form or another. Many rely on God for ultimate justice. Humans have a sense of justice where wrongdoers have to give account. If wrongdoers escape human justice then they will not escape justice from God. People escape human justice every day and others a victimized by criminals. Women are raped, others are murdered, innocents suffer, etc. There is injustice everywhere. That is why Christians attempt to right the wrongs of their past when they convert. They make amends. Stop doing destructive things etc. If no God, then there is not ultimate justice. Both criminal and victim end up in the ground and that is it. So why try and make amends?

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#3455 Jan 5, 2013
Gillette wrote:
C'mon, you are smarter than this.
Take the Documentary Hypothesis, for example. Modern translating and text analysis skills of the last century have now given scholars the ability to pull apart the 4 strands of different author's stories in the Pentateuch, plus the later anachronisms, which would seem to argue against one author of that time, i.e. Moses.
So what does academia do with this knowledge? Ignore, it? Sit on it? Say, no this is different from what our parents and pastors taught us, do it must be wrong?
Scholars follow the textual and historical clues wherever they lead. Christian apologists work another agenda and will say pretty much anything to defend the received truth or interpretation that has been passed to them.
As far as Bible prophecies, what is wrong with making the intelligent observation that many of the scriptures that have Jesus fulfilling prophecies or foreshadowings were written AFTER Jesus by men working a positive agenda to promote Jesus and his Messiahship or divinity -- i.e. people who WANTED TO SHOW JESUS fulfilling prophecy?
Why should that not be taken into consideration? How is that setting an "impossible standard' for prophecy?
They have no real proof and their conclusion effectually states Christian primary sources was a scam or a contrived hoax. Essentially a lie whereas they write about fall of Jerusalem after the fact and make it appear it was before the fact. There is no ancient precident which exposes the alleged hoax. All you have is a conspiracy theory with no ancient evidence to back any of it. It would be like writing about the fall of Nazi Germany now and then back dating it to the 1930s and writing about it as a future event. Gospel accounts has destruction of Temple as a future event.
Punisher

Tuckahoe, NY

#3456 Jan 5, 2013
-The Star Reborn- wrote:
<quoted text>
Science books are not written in the format that fundies can understand.
They need to be changed to something like:
And behold! As thou standeth on a street corner and harken to the cars passing by thou experience your Lord's “Doppler Effect” also beknown as the sacred “red shift’ in relation to the angels of light. The sound waves that proceedith from the Lord by the chariots of iron as they approach thou sound higher pitched than the sound of the chariots of iron moving away from thou. The angels of light from objects moving toward thou appear as shorter angels of light (blue) than angels of light from objects moving away (red) from thou.
Read a science book saith the Lord thy God!!!
Nice job!
Big Al

Grand Rapids, MN

#3457 Jan 5, 2013
-The Star Reborn- wrote:
<quoted text>
Science books are not written in the format that fundies can understand.
They need to be changed to something like:
And behold! As thou standeth on a street corner and harken to the cars passing by thou experience your Lord's “Doppler Effect” also beknown as the sacred “red shift’ in relation to the angels of light. The sound waves that proceedith from the Lord by the chariots of iron as they approach thou sound higher pitched than the sound of the chariots of iron moving away from thou. The angels of light from objects moving toward thou appear as shorter angels of light (blue) than angels of light from objects moving away (red) from thou.
Read a science book saith the Lord thy God!!!
I have noticed that many fundamentalist Christians seem to think that “God”, Jesus and the Apostles all “spake” Middle English.
Punisher

Tuckahoe, NY

#3458 Jan 5, 2013
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> That is not a rule of logic.More of a rhetorical device. Besides, if God exists then resurrection is not an extraordinary claim since God creates life from dirt. <quoted text> Then the so-called rational person has to explain the origin of life absent intelligence. Atheism rules out God and makes fixed naturalistic assumptions about all places at all times
<quoted text> No not really.
<quoted text> The burden is on the person making the claim. There is a good historical case for resurrection. Ehrman states he does not know what happened after Jesus died.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =p2w6G5i6Y0AXX&feature=rel ated
<quoted text> Supernatural claims are rare. Jesus is historical. Hostile accounts have Jesus down as a sorcerer so neither hostile or friendly deny supernatural events as it relates to Jesus.
<quoted text> Right.
<quoted text> That is dismissive. All of human history believes God in one form or another. Many rely on God for ultimate justice. Humans have a sense of justice where wrongdoers have to give account. If wrongdoers escape human justice then they will not escape justice from God. People escape human justice every day and others a victimized by criminals. Women are raped, others are murdered, innocents suffer, etc. There is injustice everywhere. That is why Christians attempt to right the wrongs of their past when they convert. They make amends. Stop doing destructive things etc. If no God, then there is not ultimate justice. Both criminal and victim end up in the ground and that is it. So why try and make amends?
Im only going to focus on one thing here. This; "Atheism rules out God and makes fixed naturalistic assumptions about all places at all times."

You were only correct in this part; "Atheism rules out God..."
The rest of the sentence is incorrect. Atheism stops at a very specific line. There is no God. Period. It makes no other assumptions, assertions or claims.

You folks have to stop lumping the atheism conclusion regarding what Religions say about an existence of a God - and what the many diverse fields of the Sciences do.

As an Atheist all I need pay attention to is what Religions say, period. I dont have to adopt any other POV, be it scientific or other...because my conclusions about what Religions say are not based on what Science says about the natural world.

Certainly some atheists may go down that path...but its not a requirement of disbelief. There is no doctrine-dogma of disbelief.

I wholly doubt what Religions say, not what science says and how that contrasts with what Religions say. I dont have to ponder on why the Universe, our world exists, or how life started and grew, etc, etc...

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