How do we know Paul is authentic ?
Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

#161 Jan 8, 2013
servant wrote:
<quoted text>
.
continued: And by the way, this is why i'm done responding to you today. Go back and see how many times since yesterday you tried hiding your folly about your mathematical formula (Deut. 4:2 plus Matthew 5 equals ???). You even went as far as leaving out your argument, breaking it up into two, and left out the numbers showing how many questions I asked concerning your mathematical (twisting of scriptures ) formula. Here you can start by seeing what you did yesterday
.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/christian...
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I responded to this already. I told you that Jesus added onto the law which was my point in posting that. What else do you want me to do? I explained how Jesus added onto it. I explained how he was from the cursed line of Jeconiah. I explained how he made false prophecy (prophecies actually). What else should I do? Heres what you didnt do:

Address where (if Jesus wasnt adding onto the law) it says those things in Matthew 5 in the Torah.

Why Ezekiel is describing a physical temple in Ezekiel 37-48 where sacrifices WILL HAPPEN if Jesus abolished the law of sacrifices according to you.

Where I or Ezekiel said that the temple would come in a specific time period.

And more. I've responded to EVERY post you made in this thread. I dont know what more else you want me to do. But yea stop responding and stop posting at me lol Because all you do after this is ignore posts or twist scripture to fit what you want it to say. So if you do respond again just RESPOND TO what I say just as I do you. If I ask a question in my response then answer it. If you ask a question then I will do the same (as I have been). Otherwise you're just saying what you want to say and me the same without discussing anything. But yea if not dont respond to me again in this thread or another. Just go talk to someone else that will humor you twisting/ignoring things that go against your belief.
servant

Itzincab, Mexico

#162 Jan 8, 2013
Sorry. I had to cut off some of your post. I didn't have room.

.
Al-Haneef wrote:
Explain these:
----------
#1.
Paul says:
Rom.13
[9] The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Jesus says:
Matt.22
[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment.
[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.
----------
#2
Paul says:
Rom.7
[9] I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died;
[10] the very commandment which promised life proved to be death to me.
Jesus says:
Matt.19
[17] And he said to him, Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.
----------
#3.

__________
#4.
Paul says:
Rom.10
[4] For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.
Jesus says:
Matt.5
[17] Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
[18] For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
----------
#5.
Paul says:
Rom.9
[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.
Jesus says:
Matt.7
[21] Not every one who says to me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[22] On that day many will say to me,`Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'[23] And then will I declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.
----------
#6.
Paul says:
1Cor.5
[7] For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.
Eph.5
[2] And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Jesus says:
Matt.9
[13] Go and learn what this means,`I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.'
.

You can twist them all up and take them out of context but in order to now which part of the LAw Paul is speaking about we first need to know the difference between the law of the Spirit of life (Romans 8) and the law of sin and death (Hebrews 10) which by the way is the only part of the law (sacrifices for sins) that was abolished since our passover lamb had come. PLEASE READ THEM. Here is a free online tool.

.

http://biblos.com/

.

You see Gentiles would love to use "grace" as a license for immorality (Jude 1:4)which is basically saying the whole law was abolished and in this they insult the Spirit of grace (truth).

.

CHECK THESE OUT BELOW. GENTILES HATE THESE PASSAGES.

.

JOHN 14:15 ---- HEBREWS 10:26-29 --- 1 JOHN 2:4-6

.

__________

.

BY THE WAY, SINCE THE SPIRIT CAME (HEBREWS 10:15-17) AND GOD'S LAWS WERE WRITTEN ON THE MINDS OF ISRAEL (JEREMIAH 31:33-34 ), INCLUDING GENTILES (ROMANS 2:14-15), THEN GENTILES SHOULD HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH KEEPING GOD'S LAWS (ROMANS 8) JESUS TOLD US TO KEEP FROM THE TORAH? BUT AGAIN, THEY ARE LIP SERVICE WORSIPERS.

.

AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST, FULLY READ WHAT JAMES 2 SAYS ABOUT MERCY

Since: Jan 13

Riyadh,Saudi Arabia

#163 Jan 8, 2013
servant wrote:
Sorry. I had to cut off some of your post. I didn't have room.
.
<quoted text>
.
You can twist them all up and take them out of context but in order to now which part of the LAw Paul is speaking about we first need to know the difference between the law of the Spirit of life (Romans 8) and the law of sin and death (Hebrews 10) which by the way is the only part of the law (sacrifices for sins) that was abolished since our passover lamb had come. PLEASE READ THEM. Here is a free online tool.
.
http://biblos.com/
.
You see Gentiles would love to use "grace" as a license for immorality (Jude 1:4)which is basically saying the whole law was abolished and in this they insult the Spirit of grace (truth).
.
CHECK THESE OUT BELOW. GENTILES HATE THESE PASSAGES.
.
JOHN 14:15 ---- HEBREWS 10:26-29 --- 1 JOHN 2:4-6
.
__________
.
BY THE WAY, SINCE THE SPIRIT CAME (HEBREWS 10:15-17) AND GOD'S LAWS WERE WRITTEN ON THE MINDS OF ISRAEL (JEREMIAH 31:33-34 ), INCLUDING GENTILES (ROMANS 2:14-15), THEN GENTILES SHOULD HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH KEEPING GOD'S LAWS (ROMANS 8) JESUS TOLD US TO KEEP FROM THE TORAH? BUT AGAIN, THEY ARE LIP SERVICE WORSIPERS.
.
AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST, FULLY READ WHAT JAMES 2 SAYS ABOUT MERCY
Sigh, As I said in my first post in this thread, reconciling Paul with what came before him requires extreme interpretational-gymnastics. You prove my point...no?

“Life Force One”

Since: Jul 07

The Spiritual Universe/God

#164 Jan 8, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Well I didnt ask what the NT said. I said how can one get that the temple in Ezekiel was a human body and not a physical temple FROM THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL? Then I said if you cannot determine that its the human body USING THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL then just say so lol. That would answer my question honestly.
So again I didnt ask for your wacky interpretation of Ezekiel 37-48 but just WHERE do you get that its "living people/believers" USING THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL. Answer that and we can continue
Still playing your run around games of never answering anyone, but leading them around with your demands that they do only what YOU want.

What a putz.
Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

#165 Jan 8, 2013
Seentheotherside wrote:
<quoted text>
Still playing your run around games of never answering anyone, but leading them around with your demands that they do only what YOU want.
What a putz.
Can you point me to where I didnt answer anything in this thread?

“Life Force One”

Since: Jul 07

The Spiritual Universe/God

#166 Jan 8, 2013
Flygerian wrote:
<quoted text>
Can you point me to where I didnt answer anything in this thread?
Ha, not playing your sick game. YOU go back to the posts of yours where you avoided his questions and played your game of demanding he follow your rules as you led him off on your tangents.
Flygerian

Oklahoma City, OK

#167 Jan 8, 2013
Seentheotherside wrote:
<quoted text>
Ha, not playing your sick game. YOU go back to the posts of yours where you avoided his questions and played your game of demanding he follow your rules as you led him off on your tangents.
In other words you're talking out the side of your neck lol Gotcha ;)
servant

Itzincab, Mexico

#168 Jan 8, 2013
Al-Haneef wrote:
<quoted text>
Sigh, As I said in my first post in this thread, reconciling Paul with what came before him requires extreme interpretational-gymnastics. You prove my point...no?
.

.

What? That you are the gold medalist of extreme interpretational-gymnastics of scriptures. Because from the looks of your opening statement, when it begins with "Explain these" shows us you needed help b/c you had not a clue as to what you were tying together....LOL

.

.
Al-Haneef wrote:
<quoted text>

post #160

Explain these:

----------
#1.

Paul says:

Rom.13
[9] The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus says:

Matt.22
[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment.
[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.
----------

#2

Paul says:

Rom.7
[9] I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died;
[10] the very commandment which promised life proved to be death to me.

Jesus says:

Matt.19
[17] And he said to him, Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.

----------

#3.
Paul says:

Rom.5
[21] so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus says:

John.5
[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

__________

#4.

Paul says:

Rom.10
[4] For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.

Jesus says:

Matt.5
[17] Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
[18] For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

----------

#5.

Paul says:

Rom.9
[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.

Jesus says:

Matt.7
[21] Not every one who says to me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[22] On that day many will say to me,`Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'[23] And then will I declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.

----------
#6.

Paul says:

1Cor.5
[7] For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.
Eph.5
[2] And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Jesus says:

Matt.9
[13] Go and learn what this means,`I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.'

****Good luck! Paul, the self-appointed "apostle" perverted the religion like no other!

Matt.24:23.“At that time if anyone says to you,'Look, here is the Christ! or,'There he is!' do not believe it. 24. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great SIGNS and miracles to deceive even the elect.

And here's Paul:

2.Corinth 12:12.“When I was with you, I certainly gave you every proof that I am truly an apostle, sent to you by God himself. For I patiently did many signs and wonders and miracles among you.”

Since: Jan 13

Riyadh,Saudi Arabia

#169 Jan 8, 2013
servant wrote:
<quoted text>
.
.
What? That you are the gold medalist of extreme interpretational-gymnastics of scriptures. Because from the looks of your opening statement, when it begins with "Explain these" shows us you needed help b/c you had not a clue as to what you were tying together....LOL
.
.
<quoted text>
Servant, anyone whom has ever laid aside their religious bias and looked at Paul's message in light of previous reveleation has reached the same conclusion: Paul is, either intentionallly or un-intentionally, an uninspired fake. He teaches something much different than what the prophets revealed.

The fact of the matter, I believe, is that you *want* Paul to be the truth. He's always been accepted as such hence you go to great lengths to make it true, sorta like mashing a square peg into a round hole..and if it doesn't fit, you get a hammer and make it fit.I'm willing to accept that maybe he was a well-meaning guy whom actually thought that he was doingt the right thing, but nothing more.
servant

Itzincab, Mexico

#170 Jan 8, 2013
Al-Haneef wrote:
<quoted text>
.

As a matter of fact...Go back and fully read and compare the Scriptures I provided in my ( post # 162 ) to the scriptures you tried tying together in your ( post # 160 ) and you'll see that you truly are the champion at extreme interpretational-gymnastics.

.

Since: Jan 13

Riyadh,Saudi Arabia

#171 Jan 8, 2013
servant wrote:
<quoted text>
.
As a matter of fact...Go back and fully read and compare the Scriptures I provided in my ( post # 162 ) to the scriptures you tried tying together in your ( post # 160 ) and you'll see that you truly are the champion at extreme interpretational-gymnastics.
.
Yeah, I still disagree with you on Paul. But hey, I respect your position on the law, perhaps you should try to convince your fellow Christians of it.

By the way, what are you--a Messianic Jew, a gentile whom coverted to a sect of Messaianic Judaism, or what?
servant

Itzincab, Mexico

#172 Jan 8, 2013
Al-Haneef wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, I still disagree with you on Paul. But hey, I respect your position on the law, perhaps you should try to convince your fellow Christians of it.
.

I've tried but Gentile Christians are convinced of their own BS.

.
Al-Haneef wrote:
<quoted text>

By the way, what are you--a Messianic Jew, a gentile whom coverted to a sect of Messaianic Judaism, or what?
.

No one special.

.

Since: Jan 13

Riyadh,Saudi Arabia

#173 Jan 8, 2013
servant wrote:
<quoted text>
.
I've tried but Gentile Christians are convinced of their own BS.
.
<quoted text>
.
No one special.
.
Lol, fair enough. Allow me to ask you just two more questions:

According to your understanding,

1. Is God one or three in one?

Is Jesus God, Gods son, the Messiah, or what?
servant

Itzincab, Mexico

#174 Jan 8, 2013
Al-Haneef wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, I still disagree with you on Paul.
.

I'm cool with that. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. If there is anything else you'd like to discuss just let me know. Thank you for your time my friend.

Shalom

.

Since: Jan 13

Riyadh,Saudi Arabia

#175 Jan 8, 2013
servant wrote:
<quoted text>
.
I'm cool with that. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. If there is anything else you'd like to discuss just let me know. Thank you for your time my friend.
Shalom
.
See post 173. By the way, don't think that you're converting me to Christianity, this is just chatting, lol.
servant

Itzincab, Mexico

#176 Jan 8, 2013
Al-Haneef wrote:
<quoted text>
Lol, fair enough. Allow me to ask you just two more questions:
According to your understanding,
1. Is God one or three in one?
Is Jesus God, Gods son, the Messiah, or what?
.

Do you want the long answer or short answer. The long answer is me using scripture to prove what I say to show you they are not my own teachings and the short answer, which is the most common way people unlearned answer, is me simply telling you what I believe without any proof of what I say. You see, the reason I also need proof is because many Gentile Christians will not like my short answer. If I give you the short answer they'll just jump all over our conversation. Their descendants are teaching another Jesus other than the Jesus the apostles in the Bible were teaching us about (2 Corinthians 11:4). In other words, they have learned over the centuries how to put their own spin on the scriptures to prove their own particular brands and versions of Jesus. So, its up to you if you have time. If not, I'm fine with that.

.

servant

Itzincab, Mexico

#177 Jan 8, 2013
Al-Haneef wrote:
<quoted text>
See post 173. By the way, don't think that you're converting me to Christianity, this is just chatting, lol.
.

I just want a healthy discussion, that's all.

.

Since: Jan 13

Riyadh,Saudi Arabia

#178 Jan 8, 2013
servant wrote:
<quoted text>
.
Do you want the long answer or short answer. The long answer is me using scripture to prove what I say to show you they are not my own teachings and the short answer, which is the most common way people unlearned answer, is me simply telling you what I believe without any proof of what I say. You see, the reason I also need proof is because many Gentile Christians will not like my short answer. If I give you the short answer they'll just jump all over our conversation. Their descendants are teaching another Jesus other than the Jesus the apostles in the Bible were teaching us about (2 Corinthians 11:4). In other words, they have learned over the centuries how to put their own spin on the scriptures to prove their own particular brands and versions of Jesus. So, its up to you if you have time. If not, I'm fine with that.
.
Explain it however you wish, just curious about your take on this because your version of the religion seems a bit more authentic than that of the others so far), which makes it kind of intersting.
servant

Itzincab, Mexico

#179 Jan 8, 2013
Al-Haneef wrote:
<quoted text>
.

PART ONE OF THREE:

.

1.) First off, let me say that it is written in the Scriptures that our Lord, Jesus, was seen and heard by Moses in the desert in O.T. times ( 1 Cor. 10:1-4 ) but what many of today's preachers and their congregations seem to overlook is what Jesus declared ealier on about his God and Father (John 20:17). This is very important because there is a difference and for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live (1 Cor. 8:6).

.
__________

.

a.) One of the things Jesus teaches us is that his God and Father is 'Spirit'( read--John 4:23-24 ) and that no one had ever seen his Father's form nor heard his voice ( John 5:37-38 ). This is very important. Just hear me out for a minute. The word 'Spirit' in John 4 is describing the idea that God is not, never was, nor ever will be, a physical or material creature. Nothing that can be seen, recognized, felt or touched in the physical world. Since a spirit has no form, then the word is simply telling us God has no form. This is a belief the Jewish Apostles would still keep about God, the Father, even after our Lord Jesus had just come in the form of flesh and blood ( 1 John 4:12---written after the crucifixion). Here are more examples:


.

----1 JOHN 4:12 No one has ever seen God ; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

.

-----1 TIMOTHY 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.

.

------1 TIMOTHY 6:15-16 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; (God*) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting.

.
__________

.

b) Jesus' description about his Father in John 4:24 should also tell you that Moses and the Prophets of the OT were not dealing with the Father (God) himself but were hearing and seeing God the Fathers' Ambassador. In the book of Exodus Chapter 23 verse 21 we see that Moses is told not to rebel against this "Angel" or Ambassador because God's Name was in him. You'll notice that all throughout the OT , God allowed Moses and the Prophets to communicate directly with His Ambassador ( Angel ) who they referred to as "the God of Israel" or "angel of the LORD".

.

(few more ex.: Gen. 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2; Judges 2:1-4; Judges 5:24; Judges 6:11-24; Judges 13: 3-22; Samuel 24:16; Zech. 1:12; Zech. 3:1; and Zech. 12:8 )

.
.

-----Hebrews 1:4 So he ( the Son ) became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say,“You are my Son; today I have become your Father”

.

__________

.

In the book of Psalms 110 verse 1 we also see David saying :


" The LORD says to my Lord : "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."


David was telling us that God the Father (the LORD) made this Ambassador both Lord and Messiah (Acts 2:34-36). Plus, if David referred to Jesus as Lord then we know that he wasn't the Son of David (Matt. 22:42-46 ). Even Jesus was showing us that His God and Father (the LORD) made him 'Lord' before the creation of the world . Now keep in mind, it isn't until NT times when we see the Son conquer death and everything was put under his feet that he would then be subject to God the Father, who is over all ( 1 Cor. 15:24 - 28 = Eph. 4:6 ). So when reading the OT and NT today we should never ignore the fact that it was always the Father's words and not His Ambassador's own. There is only one God ( 1 Cor. 8:6 )!
.

.

continue..........

.
servant

Itzincab, Mexico

#180 Jan 8, 2013
Just some passages to take a look at before we continue to the second part and see the role of this Ambassador in NT.

.

http://biblos.com/

.

Romans 15:6
2 Corinthians 1:2-3
2 Corinthians 11:31
Ephesians 1:2
Ephesians 1:17
Ephesians 4:4-6
1 Peter 1:3
2 John 1:3
1 Thessalonians 1:1
2 Thessalonians 1:2
2 Timothy 1:2
Philippians 1:2

.

.

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