Will a Christian answer this rational...

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#10867 Jan 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Gates and Buffett are not giving because their atheism compels them to. They give because they have some compassion.
I never claimed atheists etc don't give. What I did say is that there is no reason to give because of atheism-skepticism-deism etc. There is nothing in these systems that compels someone to.
People give to help others because they care, I think we agree on that..Nobody needs to be compelled to help if they really love and care for others..If Christianity compels Christians to give, that can only mean one thing..There must a bunch of Christians that don't give a hoot about the less fortunate and give only to get the pie in the sky when you die..If you disagree, please explain why.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#10868 Jan 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
You need to remember that this world is fallen. Its out of whack from the original intent of the Creator. That may be why there is "Survival of the fittest with stronger predators brutally taunting their prey before they finely eat it".
If "this world is fallen" like you say, who redesigned life to the gruesome thing we witness today? Also, please tell me what you think the crocodiles, killer whales and blood sucking mosquitoes were eating before the world fell?
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#10869 Jan 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Gates and Buffett are not giving because their atheism compels them to. They give because they have some compassion.
Wait, I thought you kept saying that atheists have no moral values? Or that there is no reason for them to have morality, like compassion.

Changing your tune when faced with real life examples?
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
I never claimed atheists etc don't give. What I did say is that there is no reason to give because of atheism-skepticism-deism etc. T
And yet they give and have compassion despite that. pretty cool!
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
There is nothing in these systems that compels someone to.
If you need to be compelled by your religion to be moral or to be generous to others you are in a very pathetic state indeed.

Re-read Matthew 25:31-46 for what happens to those who give SELFLESSLY, without knowing they are serving God," etc.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#10870 Jan 3, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong, and you ignored why.
<quoted text>
And what the Bible says God created is NOT the universe.
<quoted text>
As we know them, anyway. We don't actually know what such universes would be like because we only have one universe to study.
<quoted text>
And you're still assuming that life MUST exist in any universe. You might as well be assuming that tomorrow's lottery drawing MUST result in the numbered balls being drawn that will be drawn. Reality doesn't start with a plan and then fulfill it; reality occurs, and we can only look back at it to see how it occurred. If you can get away from the premise that we MUST be here, and can get away from the premise that we are somehow significant or important, then perhaps you can start understanding reality on REALITY'S terms.
I'm not even getting into your specious source material. The jokes write themselves. I needn't pile on.
<quoted text>
1: Your ignorance doesn't change reality.
2: I didn't ask if a theory says the energy is eternal; I said if it's POSSIBLE that the energy is eternal.
3: "Before the bang?" You clearly have no understanding of cosmology. You're so ignorant, you're incapable of carrying on a meaningful conversation on the subject.
What do you mean I’m wrong about Genesis 1:1 speaking of the beginning of the universe?
The first couple of chapters give a detailed description for how this world was created. In verse 16 of Genesis 1 it says—“...... He made the stars also.” This would encompass the universe. Psalm 19 also speaks of this—“ The heavens are telling of the glory of God ; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.” John 1:3 is even more specific about this where it says of Christ—“ All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.” This includes the entire universe.
We do know that if certain laws of the universe were slightly different we would not be here. Take gravity. If it was slightly different by the tiniest degree would not be here. To strong, and complex life could not form or to weak and stars and planets would not form.
I am not assuming that life must exist in any universe. Life is not necessary for the existence of the universe. I’m just pointing out what it takes for life to exist in our universe. One of the authors of my source has a PHD’s and a masters in physics from Georgia Tech and University of Alabama. These are not fundamentalist schools. They are not the only scientists who agree that the universe is fine-tuned way beyond what man can build.
It is impossible for energy to be eternal because of the 2nd law of thermodynamics which tells us that the universe is running out of energy.
Time and space were created in the bang. We can speak of something before the bang because we know the universe had a beginning. The big question is what? I think God is the best explanation. What say you?
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#10871 Jan 3, 2013
justawounderin wrote:
<quoted text>
If "this world is fallen" like you say, who redesigned life to the gruesome thing we witness today? Also, please tell me what you think the crocodiles, killer whales and blood sucking mosquitoes were eating before the world fell?
Good questions. Some more qualified can give you a better guess than I can.
When I say the world is fallen that means its not working perfectly the way God intended. There is some debate among theologians if death would have been part of the world before the fall.
You still have to account for why the world is the way it is. Why do you think the "gruesome thing we witness today" happen?
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#10872 Jan 3, 2013
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
Wait, I thought you kept saying that atheists have no moral values? Or that there is no reason for them to have morality, like compassion.
Changing your tune when faced with real life examples?
<quoted text>
And yet they give and have compassion despite that. pretty cool!
<quoted text>
If you need to be compelled by your religion to be moral or to be generous to others you are in a very pathetic state indeed.
Re-read Matthew 25:31-46 for what happens to those who give SELFLESSLY, without knowing they are serving God," etc.
I never said atheist have no moral values. What i did say is that there is no objective moral foundation in atheism. An atheist cannot claim something is wrong morally because they have no objective moral standard by which to judge something as being right or wrong or better or worse. Its all subjective. Its all relative.
Atheists and others are compassionate because they have the image of God in them. Compassion is an expression of it. Compassion is not part of atheism-skepticism system.

What Christianity offers in regards to compassion is a compelling reason and motivation for it because it pleases Christ and we will be rewarded for doing so. Love for others also is another reason.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#10873 Jan 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
I never said atheist have no moral values. What i did say is that there is no objective moral foundation in atheism.
And yet that does not seem to stop Bill Gates and Warren Buffet and lots of others from unselfishly giving to and helping their fellow man.

Why do you think an "objective moral foundation" is even necessary, then? Proof is in the pudding, right?

And keep in mind, I have pointed out to you in detail that there is no such THING as an "objective moral foundation" and that you simply wish there was one and therefore imagine there IS one in your life.
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Atheists and others are compassionate because they have the image of God in them.
Well, that's easy to say, isn't it?:)
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
What Christianity offers in regards to compassion is a compelling reason and motivation for it because it pleases Christ and we will be rewarded for doing so.
Yes, see Matthew 25:31-46. It could very well get you into eternal life! You shouldn't need to want to please a deity (real or imagined) in order to do good works. Atheists do not, and would seem to be on a higher moral plane than you because of it.
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Compassion is an expression of it. Compassion is not part of atheism-skepticism system.
There IS no atheist-skepticism system. Atheism is a position of non-belief on a God or gods. nothing more or less.

What people believe or do not believe about moral issues etc. is BESIDE that point.

And you admit above that atheists have moral values (cf. Buffet/Gates). So obviously, religion isn't necessary for one to develop and use morality.

One can obviously be an atheist or skeptic and have compassion for others and act on that moral value.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#10874 Jan 3, 2013
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
And yet that does not seem to stop Bill Gates and Warren Buffet and lots of others from unselfishly giving to and helping their fellow man.
Why do you think an "objective moral foundation" is even necessary, then? Proof is in the pudding, right?
And keep in mind, I have pointed out to you in detail that there is no such THING as an "objective moral foundation" and that you simply wish there was one and therefore imagine there IS one in your life.
<quoted text>
Well, that's easy to say, isn't it?:)
<quoted text>
Yes, see Matthew 25:31-46. It could very well get you into eternal life! You shouldn't need to want to please a deity (real or imagined) in order to do good works. Atheists do not, and would seem to be on a higher moral plane than you because of it.
<quoted text>
There IS no atheist-skepticism system. Atheism is a position of non-belief on a God or gods. nothing more or less.
What people believe or do not believe about moral issues etc. is BESIDE that point.
And you admit above that atheists have moral values (cf. Buffet/Gates). So obviously, religion isn't necessary for one to develop and use morality.
One can obviously be an atheist or skeptic and have compassion for others and act on that moral value.
It’s great that Gates and Buffet give to the poor.
An "objective moral foundation" is necessary when making laws and basing your life on something. Good laws have an objective standard that cannot be changed by individuals. It comes into play when evil is being done outside of our sphere of influence as we sometimes see in other countries. The supreme example was the condemnation of the Nazis. It may have been the law in nazi Germany to murder Jews but we know that is not right. The only way to condemn such a thing is to appeal to a higher law in which all men are accountable to, That higher law must be unchangeable and be true at all times and places.
You claim there is no "objective moral foundation" but we know that leads to all kinds of absurdities. We know instinctively that the torture of babies for fun is always wrong. Rape is always wrong. There could never be a situation where these things could be ever morally good. Would you agree?
The only way there can be an "objective moral foundation" is if God exist. God is the only being that can give us this "objective moral foundation" because He alone is above man and He has power to make this law.
The atheist may think he lives on a higher moral plane but he has no way to measure this because for him there is no such thing as "objective moral standard" in which he can gauge it.
Agreed. Religion is not necessary to develop a moral system. Just don’t think that such a system is universal and all men are accountable to it.

“A JOURNEY OF A THOUSAND MILES”

Since: Aug 08

MUST BEGIN WITH A SINGLE STEP!

#10875 Jan 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
What do you mean I’m wrong about Genesis 1:1 speaking of the beginning of the universe?
So, it is your claim that God not only created this planet, but our entire Solar System, and EVERY GALAXY AND STAR SYSTEM throughout the entire UNIVERSE, right? Based on what it states in the bible, right? Who confirmed that this event took place? I mean there must have been someone, right?

I mean if you are claiming that the bible is indeed fact, why is there a conflict between Genesis 1:3 and Genesis 1:14-15......how many times did God need to create light?

And if after the first chapter of Genesis, God stated He had made everything and He was done, yet in Genesis chapter 2......God adds more stuff.....and who gave Adam his name?

And in the bible it states "DAYS", but we know it was not a 24 hour day as we know them today......so, how long did it take God to actually create just this planet alone?
Kelvo

United States

#10876 Jan 3, 2013
justawounderin wrote:
<quoted text>
If "this world is fallen" like you say, who redesigned life to the gruesome thing we witness today? Also, please tell me what you think the crocodiles, killer whales and blood sucking mosquitoes were eating before the world fell?
We are fallen beings because of mans choice. God gave us free will,so that we would serve him by free will. We were made perfect, not knowing evil allowed man to live in perfectness and as holy beings. The fruit gave us the knowledge of evil wich made man evil by nature. By one mans sin,we became fallen beings but by one man who was the son of God we were redeemd to perfectness by Gods grace.
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#10877 Jan 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Gates and Buffett are not giving because their atheism compels them to.

1. They give because they have some compassion.

I never claimed atheists etc don't give. What I did say is that there is no reason to give because of atheism-skepticism-deism etc. There is nothing in these systems that compels someone to.
1. Bingo! Thats all a Human needs or matters. Lacking compassion wont make a Xtian giver a winner! If they begrudgingly give, they're not willingly giving! Being compelled because of the merit badge system of Xtianity ain't gonna win anyone anything...!

You finally might be on the road to enlightenment...at is most early beginnings, but its a start nonetheless. Good for You.
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#10878 Jan 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
You need to remember that this world is fallen. Its out of whack from the original intent of the Creator. That may be why there is "Survival of the fittest with stronger predators brutally taunting their prey before they finely eat it".
If its out of whack its because your God set it up to be! He had to have it out of whack, what would he have to do if things had remained in line?

BTW not sure where Justwondering got that line, but its not true at all. While a domesticated cat might play with its prey, its because it didnt learn to kill by a parent, not out of some twisted personality trait.

Ive spent a lot of time watch'n various predators do their thing, and none of them taunt their prey. Most especially since taunting is a Human trait that requires intention, and a desire to hurt others for the sake of it...
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#10879 Jan 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Atheists-skeptics-deists etc for the most part don't organize into large group or institutions. Those like this are pretty much lone ranger types who don't want to organize and want to be left alone. There is no compelling reason to and its not in them to make the world a better place anyway.
Not true at all. Stop making things up to suit your prejudices.

You dont know a damn thing about this, and much more.

Myself and all my atheist friends, and theirs, etc are joiners of various groups and organizations. Personal, professional civil, charitable, etc, etc. Just not churches. We don't need that cr/p. We join to do the right thing, not to please some idiotic imaginary God like Yours.

Jeff, lets face it, you're nothing a but a prejudiced moron who loves to speak about things you know nothing about! This post of yours makes it so clear that YOU live by and for your prejudices.
Punisher

Yonkers, NY

#10880 Jan 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
I never said atheist have no moral values. What i did say is that there is no objective moral foundation in atheism. An atheist cannot claim something is wrong morally because they have no objective moral standard by which to judge something as being right or wrong or better or worse. Its all subjective. Its all relative.

Atheists and others are compassionate because they have the image of God in them. Compassion is an expression of it. Compassion is not part of atheism-skepticism system.

What Christianity offers in regards to compassion is a compelling reason and motivation for it because it pleases Christ and we will be rewarded for doing so. Love for others also is another reason.
Again Yes, we can define things a smoral and not. As can anyone with a God system or not.

Q; is something good.bad because your God says it is, or because its good/bad without his say

But I thought acts/works were useless?? But you just said they will please the J-man and will in turn give rewards.

Xtianity does nothing for any one. Lets face it. Either a person is compassionate and will act, or they are not. And IF they are compelled, told to, demanded to, because of this silly Religion of yours, then they're not doing it honestly and freely. Which YOUR God will see right thru!

Hows that corner you just painted yourself into?

And this "God in us" cr/p is baseless. Just more of your stupidity. Your arguments are getting more weak and more pathetic.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#10881 Jan 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
It may have been the law in nazi Germany to murder Jews but we know that is not right.
Yes, WE know it. But the Nazis and their henchmen in other countries like Lithuania, etc. didn't know it. To them, it was a good thing to cleanse society of the Jews.

Relative morality.
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
The only way to condemn such a thing is to appeal to a higher law in which all men are accountable to, That higher law must be unchangeable and be true at all times and places.
No, we can just say "We don't think killing is good around here and if you want to live in this country, you need to abide by our laws. When we go visit Nazi Germany or a Muslim country living under Sharia Law, then we need to observe their laws while there, whether we agree with them or not.
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
That higher law must be unchangeable and be true at all times and places.
No law or more or piece of morality is "true for all times and places."
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
You claim there is no "objective moral foundation" but we know that leads to all kinds of absurdities.
The people who promote Sharia Law KNOW that it is divinely ordained and "true," don't they? So we should all live by it?
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
The only way there can be an "objective moral foundation" is if God exist. God is the only being that can give us this "objective moral foundation" because He alone is above man and He has power to make this law.
You need, then, to prove your God exists and that what you say are his laws and his morality are in fact that.
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
The atheist may think he lives on a higher moral plane but he has no way to measure this because for him there is no such thing as "objective moral standard" in which he can gauge it.
No, an atheist doesn't have to think he "lives on a higher moral plane." That's your kind of religious thinking.

An atheist (or anyone, really) just needs to live by what HE thinks is right or wrong, both individually and in society with like-minded others.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#10882 Jan 3, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Bingo! Thats all a Human needs or matters. Lacking compassion wont make a Xtian giver a winner! If they begrudgingly give, they're not willingly giving! Being compelled because of the merit badge system of Xtianity ain't gonna win anyone anything...!
You finally might be on the road to enlightenment...at is most early beginnings, but its a start nonetheless. Good for You.
It takes more than just feeling like giving to do great things. That's what Christianity offers that the others don't. There needs to be good reasons to sacrifice greatly. Atheism-skepticism-agnostics-d eists etc don't have compelling reasons to sacrifice greatly.

BTW- thanks for the back handed compliment. Coming from you that means a lot.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#10883 Jan 3, 2013
Punisher wrote:
<quoted text>Not true at all. Stop making things up to suit your prejudices.
You dont know a damn thing about this, and much more.
Myself and all my atheist friends, and theirs, etc are joiners of various groups and organizations. Personal, professional civil, charitable, etc, etc. Just not churches. We don't need that cr/p. We join to do the right thing, not to please some idiotic imaginary God like Yours.
Jeff, lets face it, you're nothing a but a prejudiced moron who loves to speak about things you know nothing about! This post of yours makes it so clear that YOU live by and for your prejudices.
Looks like you give with the right hand and take away from the left. Now I'm a "prejudiced moron". lol
Anyway, you know as well as I do that there are no atheistic institution in the past 1000 years that gave based on atheism. They just don't exist because atheism does not compel anyone to give. I think its a good thing that secular organizations are following Christian organizations in giving.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#10884 Jan 3, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
BTW- thanks for the back handed compliment. Coming from you that means a lot.
We don't understand why you keep saying the same things and holding to the same opinions when we repeatedly give you examples of the opposite in real life.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#10885 Jan 3, 2013
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
So, it is your claim that God not only created this planet, but our entire Solar System, and EVERY GALAXY AND STAR SYSTEM throughout the entire UNIVERSE, right? Based on what it states in the bible, right? Who confirmed that this event took place? I mean there must have been someone, right?
I mean if you are claiming that the bible is indeed fact, why is there a conflict between Genesis 1:3 and Genesis 1:14-15......how many times did God need to create light?
And if after the first chapter of Genesis, God stated He had made everything and He was done, yet in Genesis chapter 2......God adds more stuff.....and who gave Adam his name?
And in the bible it states "DAYS", but we know it was not a 24 hour day as we know them today......so, how long did it take God to actually create just this planet alone?
I do think that our solar system has deliberate design features that can be explained by a deliberate intervention by God. The orbit of our planet and distance from the sun that just happens to be right for life. The moon is essential for life and the planet Jupiter which keeps a lot of debris away from us is just to coincidental to have happened by accident. These things are not mentioned in the Bible but we can deduce these things by observing them. Its interesting that this has come to light on in the modern age.
Your other questions on Genesis can be understood by consulting some commentaries. Its there you will find scholarly discussions on these matters. The light in Genesis 1:3 speaks of God creating light that dispelled the darkness while the light in 14-19 refers to sun and moon.
When it says that God rested on the 7th day and completed His work of creation it means that the original creation out of nothing has stopped. That does not mean God totally stopped His involvement in creation as we see in the rest of chapter 2 and the rest of Scripture.
This is much debate on the meaning of the word "day" in Genesis. Could be a 24 hour period or long ages.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#10886 Jan 3, 2013
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
We don't understand why you keep saying the same things and holding to the same opinions when we repeatedly give you examples of the opposite in real life.
This subject is very complex and its not easily understood. I see the same things with you. There is a difference in doing something and justifying it. Doing good is one thing but showing why a person should do good based on their beliefs is another.

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